Michael Moore trashes "American Sniper"

[hal2kilo]

Just love the reaction from conservatives by the mention of his name. Kind of like making fun of Mohammed in some circles.

 

[Brovane]

Israel flattened entire city blocks and dropped cluster munitions on civilians, which still to this day kill people in Lebanon. They killed THOUSANDS of civilians.

If you would like, I can link you to a video of Israel shelling civilians and killing a UN observer. Not a single combatant in sight, even though the video is like 5 minutes long and the dude wanders all over the area where people died. 17 dead civilians 200 injured one strike and the Israelis don't even have to set foot in Lebanon to do it.

It's disgusting, just like the suicide bombers. Where is your condemnation for Israel's wanton razing of city blocks?

Do I have to make a condemning list of everyone I condemn before I post so you can be happy?

Absolutely I condemn Israeli for shelling into Lebanon and killing civilians. Of course I would also condemn someone that shot a rocket from that area full of civilians and then ran away.

So what point are you trying to make?

 

[DeadFred]

lol +1

The day's still young.

Holy hell, you sure were right! The ignorance flowing from the leftys in this forum never ceases to amaze.

The stupidest thing Ive read all day list is growing by leaps and bounds.

 

[Brovane]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_sniper_attacks

Please elaborate on the point you are trying to make with that link.

Hold on to make TreVader happy.

I condemn the Beltway sniper attacks.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Lol I guess he was overtaken. Last time I was really up on military stuff was like 2006-7 so I guess this guy hadn't overtaken Hathcock yet.



I'll have to see the movie to make a judgement. I still wouldn't call him a "hero" on the basis of # of kills. He's a very good sniper, but I personally do not value military contributions that consist of "x # of enemy killed, then we left". That's not a contribution, it's a massacre.

on page 2 and just now realizing you're not even talking about the same person.... come on!

 

[CitizenKain]

Its a shame Chris Kyle is the person that the rightwing morons are holding up as some sort of paragon. World is better place without him in it.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Lol I guess he was overtaken. Last time I was really up on military stuff was like 2006-7 so I guess this guy hadn't overtaken Hathcock yet.



I'll have to see the movie to make a judgement. I still wouldn't call him a "hero" on the basis of # of kills. He's a very good sniper, but I personally do not value military contributions that consist of "x # of enemy killed, then we left". That's not a contribution, it's a massacre.

It's war and I guarantee he saved more Americans lives than the enemy he killed by doing his job. Whether American troops should have been there or not is irrelevant, he had a job to do and his notoriety to a large degree was tied to his ability to perform as a sniper. He was following orders in a military environment in which snipers are a necessary evil. I bet if it was your life he saved or someone close you'd think of him as a hero. Would you rather he had intentionally missed every other target?

The movie is definitely propaganda driven...that's for sure. Heroes are usually branded whether they like it or not. I actually don't agree and to be sure many special operators don't agree with a book and movie to highlight what these silent professionals do behind the scene.

 

[Angry Irishman]

When a Nazi or suicide bomber does it, they're evil savages.

When an American sniper does it, he's mentally disturbed and just following orders. It's the system that has forsaken him.

Not a valid comparison....at all.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Its a shame Chris Kyle is the person that the rightwing morons are holding up as some sort of paragon. World is better place without him in it.

Surprising given his claims to have summarily executed U.S. citizens on U.S. soil repeatedly during the Katrina aftermath and taken pride in that.

 

[TreVader]

Do I have to make a condemning list of everyone I condemn before I post so you can be happy?

Absolutely I condemn Israeli for shelling into Lebanon and killing civilians. Of course I would also condemn someone that shot a rocket from that area full of civilians and then ran away.

So what point are you trying to make?

It was my understanding that your argument was that suicide bombing is somehow uniquely vicious or wrong in comparison to bombs or missiles.

My point is that they don't really have any other options to get large amounts of explosives reliably on target.


Obviously if these military tactics are used on civilians, it become an atrocity. Just like the Israelis or Russian Separatists shelling civilians. I condemn all the tactics, but I see people on this forum point suicide bombing out to be something uniquely wrong. It's a practical solution, really nothing more. I can guarantee you that if you gave them a way to deliver ordinance without blowing themselves up, they would use it. And it would still be just as wrong.

 

[cabri]

Suicide bombing is a solution to a problem: How to reliably get explosives onto a target.


In the west, we have guided munitions. They don't, what do you expect them to do to reliably get say 2,000lbs of RDX onto a target? Most of the organizations that use SVBIEDs don't even have any air force at all, nor any artilliary, nor any guided missiles. What the fuck do you expect them to do? Invent and build clandestine guided munitions overnight?


There is no other option. And the bombers themselves tend to be brainwashed or even forced into doing it. This american guy volunteered to kill people, how is that any more noble than giving your life, guaranteed, for your nation?

He volunteered to protect his fellow soldiers. he was killing people that were trying to or did kill his comrades (civilian and military)

That was his job and he did it to the best of his abilities and training.

They had advanced weaponry, supplied by Syria/Russia/China etc also being used against the soldiers.
Yet, their leaders also chose to use women and children as suicide weapons weapons. Why women and children? To take advantage of the Western mind that such would not be a danger to them.

 

[TreVader]

He volunteered to protect his fellow soldiers. he was killing people that were trying to or did kill his comrades (civilian and military)

That was his job and he did it to the best of his abilities and training.

He was told EXACTLY what he was getting into when he enlisted. I have zero sympathy for people who enter the military and then spend the rest of their lives pointing to the 4 years they spent as reservist as some kind of huge contribution to society. He volunteered to kill people, do you think he thought he would be handing out flyers in Afghanistan or Iraq?



And yeah he did his job, a disgusting one. And? I fail to see how that's remarkable, but I will have to see the movie and do some reading.

 

[CitizenKain]

 

[moonbogg]

Stupid politics. Like anyone holds the moral high ground here. The fact of the matter is, each of you would blow that sniper if given half the chance.

 

[marincounty]

I guess making terrible movies hasn't been working out so well lately. He has to start posting idiotic crap on twitter to stay relevant.

His net worth is supposed to be $50 million. Even if he gets screwed in his divorce he's still worth more than anyone here.
Sounds like a bunch of jealous whiners to me.

 

[bshole]

Its a shame Chris Kyle is the person that the rightwing morons are holding up as some sort of paragon. World is better place without him in it.

Well that seems a little bit extreme. I didn't like the man, but I certainly didn't wish him dead.





Actually the only person that I have and do wish dead is Carly Fiorina,,,, hopefully by an exceptionally painful cancer. That bitch is the spawn of Satan himself.

 

[Angry Irishman]

He was told EXACTLY what he was getting into when he enlisted. I have zero sympathy for people who enter the military and then spend the rest of their lives pointing to the 4 years they spent as reservist as some kind of huge contribution to society. He volunteered to kill people, do you think he thought he would be handing out flyers in Afghanistan or Iraq?



And yeah he did his job, a disgusting one. And? I fail to see how that's remarkable, but I will have to see the movie and do some reading.

Protecting fellow GIs is disgusting? Please explain further. What do you think Navy SEALs do for a living? I was a SEABEE who for the most part did much to help people by building roads and infrastructure. We also did a lot of disaster relief overseas and I was and am very proud of that but when I had to defend myself or protect my platoon I would fiercely and without labeling it as disgusting. Actually making judgements was the last thing on anyone's minds. Sometimes an offensive stance was needed. In hostile environments we had snipers attached to my battalion and we were all very thankful for them to be silently protecting us. There were more than a few occasions where their service as a sniper did just that.

Sounds like you have more than just a negative opinion of this man but negativity for military folks in general. It's a free country, feel free to judge and hate; it's just too bad you're making misinformed judgements.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Surprising given his claims to have summarily executed U.S. citizens on U.S. soil repeatedly during the Katrina aftermath and taken pride in that.

I walked away from the movie guaranteed in my feelings that Kyle died an insane man.

 

[Angry Irishman]

There are many weak minds in this world....

 

[Brovane]

It was my understanding that your argument was that suicide bombing is somehow uniquely vicious or wrong in comparison to bombs or missiles.

My point is that they don't really have any other options to get large amounts of explosives reliably on target.


Obviously if these military tactics are used on civilians, it become an atrocity. Just like the Israelis or Russian Separatists shelling civilians. I condemn all the tactics, but I see people on this forum point suicide bombing out to be something uniquely wrong. It's a practical solution, really nothing more. I can guarantee you that if you gave them a way to deliver ordinance without blowing themselves up, they would use it. And it would still be just as wrong.

Suicide bombing isn't inherently wrong. It is just another way to deliver ordnance. Just like I wouldn't call the Japanese practice of Kamikazes during WW2 a war crime either. It is more about the target that you pick for the mission that makes it a war crime or not.

 

[Brovane]

He was told EXACTLY what he was getting into when he enlisted. I have zero sympathy for people who enter the military and then spend the rest of their lives pointing to the 4 years they spent as reservist as some kind of huge contribution to society. He volunteered to kill people, do you think he thought he would be handing out flyers in Afghanistan or Iraq?



And yeah he did his job, a disgusting one. And? I fail to see how that's remarkable, but I will have to see the movie and do some reading.

Chris Kyle was in the Navy Seals before 9/11 even occurred. When called he did his job as he was trained to do. He didn't get to pick what War he got to fight in.

FYI If you read the book you realize that Snipers have very strict rules of engagement about who they can fire at and who they cannot fire at. Each possible kill has to be cataloged and written justification made by the sniper as to why he took the shoot. IE the guy was pointing a RPG at a US convoy etc. If you make the wrong call you can be investigated and possibly brought up on charges. A sniper is one of the most surgical tools of a military and results in far less collateral damage than other methods.

 

[TreVader]

Chris Kyle was in the Navy Seals before 9/11 even occurred. When called he did his job as he was trained to do. He didn't get to pick what War he got to fight in.



FYI If you read the book you realize that Snipers have very strict rules of engagement about who they can fire at and who they cannot fire at. Each possible kill has to be cataloged and written justification made by the sniper as to why he took the shoot. IE the guy was pointing a RPG at a US convoy etc. If you make the wrong call you can be investigated and possibly brought up on charges. A sniper is one of the most surgical tools of a military and results in far less collateral damage than other methods.

Again I will have to see the film and read more. I can tell you that his Wikipedia page had some really good things and some really bad things about him. So I reserve judgement.

We are apparently in agree otherwise. I am aware of the kind of asset a sniper can be.

 

[JimKiler]

Suicide bombing is a solution to a problem: How to reliably get explosives onto a target.


In the west, we have guided munitions. They don't, what do you expect them to do to reliably get say 2,000lbs of RDX onto a target? Most of the organizations that use SVBIEDs don't even have any air force at all, nor any artilliary, nor any guided missiles. What the fuck do you expect them to do? Invent and build clandestine guided munitions overnight?


There is no other option. And the bombers themselves tend to be brainwashed or even forced into doing it. This american guy volunteered to kill people, how is that any more noble than giving your life, guaranteed, for your nation?

My point was the american snipers are for defense of our troops, and while i understand we would not want to be invaded that does not justify the taliban to kill us in Afghanistan therefore their suicide bombers are immoral compared to our snipers protecting our troops and aid workers.

 

[Thebobo]

Micheal Moore can go die in a fire for being such an Obama apologist.

yea but what about the movie?

 

[boomerang]

Great thread! Two thumbs up!