Jon Stewart on guns and public safety...

[cytg111]

Well my last post quoting you, I thought I had a pretty reasonable response...

Man, I've been down that road way too many times.. I just know my forum experience improved when I started putting blinders on once the "we need to unlearn to hate ourselves" stuff starts up. *shrugs*.

 

[Meghan54]

So , first I admit to owning a semi-auto pistol, a .410/.22 over/under, and a .270 bolt action rifle, just to acknowledge my biases and ultimate hypocrisy.

So, let me ask…like Stewart asked…if more guns make us safe, why are cops so freaked out when they see one?

 

[MrSquished]

Man, I've been down that road way too many times.. I just know my forum experience improved when I started putting blinders on once the "we need to unlearn to hate ourselves" stuff starts up. *shrugs*.

If I can hate some of myself, why can't I hate nazis, fascists and christian white nationalists?

I mean none of his argument is sensible.

 

[ch33zw1z]

So , first I admit to owning a semi-auto pistol, a .410/.22 over/under, and a .270 bolt action rifle, just to acknowledge my biases and ultimate hypocrisy.

So, let me ask…like Stewart asked…if more guns make us safe, why are cops so freaked out when they see one?

yep, and when’s the tipping point. At what quantity of guns do we started to see this safe society I hear about

 

[ch33zw1z]

Clearly a greater percentage of our murders can be attributed to guns since we have more guns.

I think it ALSO has a lot to do with the violence caused by our war on drugs and the violent black market it sustains. Although estimates vary widely, it is likely that a huge amount of our gun violence is primarily or secondarily related to the war on drugs.

and guess what, republicans are adding abortion and hormone pills to the banned substances list. So expect this to expand, not shrink.

 

[cytg111]

If I can hate some of myself, why can't I hate nazis, fascists and christian white nationalists?

I mean none of his argument is sensible.

Not going there .

 

[HomerJS]

Simple question, do more guns make us safer?

Can anyone give a simple answer (10 words or less)?

 

[Jaskalas]

"My gun makes ME feel safer. #FYGM"

Count them. But seriously, you knew the answer before you asked. You also knew you wouldn't get a sane and logical argument. Nor do they need one. Once again you are pretending logic and reason has a place among humans. It does not.

Also... given the state of our society, are you certain that you want liberals leading a movement to disarm people, namely themselves?
Such arguments would be for peacetime.....

 

[HomerJS]

"My gun makes ME feel safer. #FYGM"

Count them. But seriously, you knew the answer before you asked. You also knew you wouldn't get a sane and logical argument. Nor do they need one. Once again you are pretending logic and reason has a place among humans. It does not.

Also... given the state of our society, are you certain that you want liberals leading a movement to disarm people, namely themselves?
Such arguments would be for peacetime.....

Let's just double the number of guns so everyone can feel safer while the death rates climb. Since there is nothing that can be done.

Next time a bunch of school children are murdered in school don't bother covering it since it is pointless.

If someone walks into a hospital one day and shoots up a nursery no point in covering it, right?

Not being critical but that is reality in the United States.

 

[Moonbeam]

My wife had 2 miscarriages between our 2 sons being born. They both happened in the first trimester.

Are you saying my wife is a murderer?

Or perhaps maybe just a manslaughter charge?

I am so very sorry this happened to you and your wife. I certainly hope neither of you carry any self incrimination as can sometimes happen reflecting on past unpreventable but emotionally painful events.

 

[purbeast0]

I am so very sorry this happened to you and your wife. I certainly hope neither of you carry any self incrimination as can sometimes happen reflecting on past unpreventable but emotionally painful events.

Thanks. It was rough but we're happy that we finally got our second son and he's healthy as can be.

But, you also dodged my question.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

and guess what, republicans are adding abortion and hormone pills to the banned substances list. So expect this to expand, not shrink.

If we keep the fight focused on divisive strategies like gun bans that probably won't even be enforceable, then yes, this will expand, and we're gonna keep having tons of gun murder. We are spinning our wheels with gun bans accomplishing NOTHING. 10 years after we ban assault rifles, we will be looking at the gun murder data with surprised Pikachu face because the numbers won't change by any more than a rounding error at best.

We need to end the war on drugs. We can sell this to Republicans and I think we can do it easily. There are all kinds of Republican wins. Treatment instead of punishment will result in fewer druggies. What Republican doesn't crave fewer druggies? If you need to sweeten the pot, phrase it as "fewer minority drug users on welfare". That will give them boners. Smallish Republican below average sized boners, but boners nonetheless. Some other wins:
- Fewer murders (reduction in gun violence)
-- ^ Again, you can phrase this as "fewer darkies killing white gentlefolk" or however you have to phrase it
- Fewer overdoses (think free emergency room treatment leading to higher taxes and more free stuff for druggies)
- Less welfare, as addicts will be allowed to recover and get jobs instead of recover and not be able to get jobs because of a drug conviction
- Fewer kids on drugs. Without a black market, there are no more pushers.
- Lower taxes (treatment being far cheaper than punishment)
- No more drug gangs (after prohibition was ended, how many alcohol gangs do we have? none)

^ All of these are Viagra for Republicans. Yet I don't see Democrats championing this. It makes me wonder why? We have examples of this working in other countries. See Portugal. If we want black lives to matter, why aren't our "Black Lives Matter" politicians making it their TOP priority to end a war that is waged almost exclusively against black people and hurts black people individually and collectively and leads to poverty, violence, and hopelessness in these communities? I can't wrap my mind around why. It's almost like both Republicans AND Democrats actually want things to stay this way.

 

[Moonbeam]

No, your "argument" fails because it's based on a question that cannot be answered.

You made the comment:

“And they play video games, and they have violent movies, and music, and ... and ...”

Your intention was to bolster the argument that it is gun prevalence that leads to gun deaths. I think that it isn’t the numbers alone that is the problem or their elimination the solution but the nature of the culture that both creates a demand for guns and a desire to use them to kill innocent people.

You made your comment thinking it relevant because you have bought into what I believe is a lie, that youth violence is the result of video games etc. I claim the violence is the result of a forced indifference to human life generally as caring about others and for others impedes personal progress to the top. Do you know the game, King of the Mountain?

 

[fskimospy]

If we keep the fight focused on divisive strategies like gun bans that probably won't even be enforceable, then yes, this will expand, and we're gonna keep having tons of gun murder. We are spinning our wheels with gun bans accomplishing NOTHING. 10 years after we ban assault rifles, we will be looking at the gun murder data with surprised Pikachu face because the numbers won't change by any more than a rounding error at best.

We need to end the war on drugs. We can sell this to Republicans and I think we can do it easily. There are all kinds of Republican wins. Treatment instead of punishment will result in fewer druggies. What Republican doesn't crave fewer druggies? If you need to sweeten the pot, phrase it as "fewer minority drug users on welfare". That will give them boners. Smallish Republican below average sized boners, but boners nonetheless. Some other wins:
- Fewer murders (reduction in gun violence)
-- ^ Again, you can phrase this as "fewer darkies killing white gentlefolk" or however you have to phrase it
- Fewer overdoses (think free emergency room treatment leading to higher taxes and more free stuff for druggies)
- Less welfare, as addicts will be allowed to recover and get jobs instead of recover and not be able to get jobs because of a drug conviction
- Fewer kids on drugs. Without a black market, there are no more pushers.
- Lower taxes (treatment being far cheaper than punishment)
- No more drug gangs (after prohibition was ended, how many alcohol gangs do we have? none)

^ All of these are Viagra for Republicans. Yet I don't see Democrats championing this. It makes me wonder why? We have examples of this working in other countries. See Portugal. If we want black lives to matter, why aren't our "Black Lives Matter" politicians making it their TOP priority to end a war that is waged almost exclusively against black people and hurts black people individually and collectively and leads to poverty, violence, and hopelessness in these communities? I can't wrap my mind around why. It's almost like both Republicans AND Democrats actually want things to stay this way.

I suspect the main reason for this is ending the war on drugs would be extremely unpopular. People like the idea of ending it as a concept but when you poll them on what that actually means (decriminalizing heroin, etc.) they flip out. I personally think all drugs should be legal but sadly most people don't, and if you aren't ending the war on drugs for things like heroin too you aren't going to see that big a benefit. What you would get instead is Republicans running ads saying Democrats want to Requiem for a Dream your kids.

As far as banning guns go that's the end goal, it doesn't have to happen tomorrow. In the absence of a blanket ban I'm perfectly happy to continue increasing regulation on them steadily. Additional regulations on who can buy guns and how many are very popular too. Every time we reduce the number of guns in society we are saving lives.

 

[ch33zw1z]

If we keep the fight focused on divisive strategies like gun bans that probably won't even be enforceable, then yes, this will expand, and we're gonna keep having tons of gun murder. We are spinning our wheels with gun bans accomplishing NOTHING. 10 years after we ban assault rifles, we will be looking at the gun murder data with surprised Pikachu face because the numbers won't change by any more than a rounding error at best.

We need to end the war on drugs. We can sell this to Republicans and I think we can do it easily. There are all kinds of Republican wins. Treatment instead of punishment will result in fewer druggies. What Republican doesn't crave fewer druggies? If you need to sweeten the pot, phrase it as "fewer minority drug users on welfare". That will give them boners. Smallish Republican below average sized boners, but boners nonetheless. Some other wins:
- Fewer murders (reduction in gun violence)
-- ^ Again, you can phrase this as "fewer darkies killing white gentlefolk" or however you have to phrase it
- Fewer overdoses (think free emergency room treatment leading to higher taxes and more free stuff for druggies)
- Less welfare, as addicts will be allowed to recover and get jobs instead of recover and not be able to get jobs because of a drug conviction
- Fewer kids on drugs. Without a black market, there are no more pushers.
- Lower taxes (treatment being far cheaper than punishment)
- No more drug gangs (after prohibition was ended, how many alcohol gangs do we have? none)

^ All of these are Viagra for Republicans. Yet I don't see Democrats championing this. It makes me wonder why? We have examples of this working in other countries. See Portugal. If we want black lives to matter, why aren't our "Black Lives Matter" politicians making it their TOP priority to end a war that is waged almost exclusively against black people and hurts black people individually and collectively and leads to poverty, violence, and hopelessness in these communities? I can't wrap my mind around why. It's almost like both Republicans AND Democrats actually want things to stay this way.

good luck with that. If anything, the republicans have shown to not care about positive outcomes like you’re presenting. It’s about attacking the correct people groups.

 

[Pens1566]

You made the comment:

“And they play video games, and they have violent movies, and music, and ... and ...”

Your intention was to bolster the argument that it is gun prevalence that leads to gun deaths. I think that it isn’t the numbers alone that is the problem or their elimination the solution but the nature of the culture that both creates a demand for guns and a desire to use them to kill innocent people.

You made your comment thinking it relevant because you have bought into what I believe is a lie, that youth violence is the result of video games etc. I claim the violence is the result of a forced indifference to human life generally as caring about others and for others impedes personal progress to the top. Do you know the game, King of the Mountain?

You have zero idea what my intention is or what I've "bought into".

Play shrink somewhere else.

 

[Moonbeam]

Let's just double the number of guns so everyone can feel safer while the death rates climb. Since there is nothing that can be done.

Next time a bunch of school children are murdered in school don't bother covering it since it is pointless.

If someone walks into a hospital one day and shoots up a nursery no point in covering it, right?

Not being critical but that is reality in the United States.

It’s not that nothing can be done. It’s that the simplicity of thinking the answer to school shootings etc can be achieved by banning guns is at present a pipe dream. The more gun violence there is the tighter the grip on guns will become as will any attempt to ban them. Self preservation is Job 1.

The answer to violence and the subset gun violence, is to decrease the despair our culture creates. But that takes psychological understanding absent in relative terms from our culture or we wouldn’t be where we are.

 

[Pohemi]

good luck with that. If anything, the republicans have shown to not care about positive outcomes like you’re presenting. It’s about attacking the correct people groups.

Not to mention...you can't get more slave labor at drug treatment facilities. Gotta keep those privately-owned prisons stocked.

Nancy and Ronald and the GOP weren't interested in treatment when they started the war on drugs, D.A.R.E., etc. They focused on prevention by scaring the children, and if that didn't work by the time they were adults, welp...just lock em up and toss the key because they also focused on increasing sentencing mandates, etc.

 

[Moonbeam]

You have zero idea what my intention is or what I've "bought into".

Play shrink somewhere else.

Certainly. Right away, boss. I have no idea whatsoever what you intend or wish to imply by this post. I will carry on as before with complete indifference to whatever…..

 

[fskimospy]

Not to mention...you can't get more slave labor at drug treatment facilities. Gotta keep those privately-owned prisons stocked.

Nancy and Ronald and the GOP weren't interested in treatment when they started the war on drugs, D.A.R.E., etc. They focused on prevention by scaring the children, and if that didn't work by the time they were adults, welp...just lock em up and toss the key because they also focused on increasing sentencing mandates, etc.

And DARE was such a complete failure too. What a waste of everyone's time. If anything I think a lot of that shit was counterproductive because I remember seeing all sorts of stuff from the government about the evils of weed that I knew to be bullshit and it made me think immediately 'if they are lying about weed, are they lying about the other stuff too?'

I completely agree that ending the war on drugs would have a major positive effect on violence (and so much else) but it is something we should pursue in ADDITION to gun regulation, not instead.

 

[Moonbeam]

Thanks. It was rough but we're happy that we finally got our second son and he's healthy as can be.

But, you also dodged my question.

We’ll I thought I answered. Your wife is not guilty of anything. Spontaneous abortions are not uncommon and are not volitional. But, while I made an absolute case for why abortion is the taking of a human life, just as is the case of less guns less gun deaths, I am pro abortion rights and against Democrats proposing the banning of guns. That latter will cause more Republicans to be elected.

 

[purbeast0]

We’ll I thought I answered. Your wife is not guilty of anything. Spontaneous abortions are not uncommon and are not volitional. But, while I made an absolute case for why abortion is the taking of a human life, just as is the case of less guns less gun deaths, I am pro abortion rights and against Democrats proposing the banning of guns. That latter will cause more Republicans to be elected.

But you said life starts at conception in your eyes.

So it would at least have to be involuntary manslaughter in your eyes no? It wasn't intentional but a life was still taken, in your eyes, according to your own rules you spelled out in your earlier post.

I mean, a life is a life right?

 

[fskimospy]

But you said life starts at conception in your eyes.

So it would at least have to be involuntary manslaughter in your eyes no?

I mean, a life is a life right?

It would also make any person undergoing IVF to be a mass murderer and as Paratus has mentioned more than once any woman over the age of about 40 who has sex should probably be imprisoned as their odds of miscarriage are well known and very high, making any pregnancy a big risk of being at least manslaughter I would say.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Once again you are pretending logic and reason has a place among humans. It does not.

Logic and reason obviously has a place among humans.
No one build a power plant based on intuition.
We didn't pray a man to the moon.
Good vibes didn't create the internet.
Only logic and reason has ever advanced mankind.
To simply toss it out as to difficult is to accept the end of civilization.

 

[Paratus]

We’ll I thought I answered. Your wife is not guilty of anything. Spontaneous abortions are not uncommon and are not volitional. But, while I made an absolute case for why abortion is the taking of a human life, just as is the case of less guns less gun deaths, I am pro abortion rights and against Democrats proposing the banning of guns. That latter will cause more Republicans to be elected.

Well that’s not entirely true. By having unprotected sex you sign up for the chance of pregnancy AND spontaneous abortions. If you don’t have sex you can’t have a spontaneous abortion.

Just like owning a fire arm. When you get one not only are you signing up for the chance to shoot the bad guy, you also are signing up for potentially shooting yourself, a loved one, or getting into a situation where you (are more likely) to get shot.