Jon Stewart on guns and public safety...

[Amused]

Since the thread about guns became about crime and abortion, allow me to add this:

THE ABORTED CRIME WAVE?

A controversial article links the recent drop in crime to the legalization of abortion two decades ago

www.scientificamerican.com

Still holds up after a 20 year review:

The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime over the Last Two Decades | Stanford Law School

Donohue and Levitt (2001) presented evidence that the legalization of abortion in the early 1970s played an important role in the crime drop of the 19

law.stanford.edu

Stewart hit it out of the park here. The argument for no regulation and restrictions on guns, while arguing in favor of both on EVERY OTHER constitutional right is absurd on its face.

To make it clear, I support private gun ownership: Well regulated, permitted on demand after a 100% mandatory background check and registration. NO private gun sales. All must be transacted with a licensed broker with federally regulated fees for background checks and gun registration.

 

[Moonbeam]

But you said life starts at conception in your eyes.

So it would at least have to be involuntary manslaughter in your eyes no? It wasn't intentional but a life was still taken, in your eyes, according to your own rules you spelled out in your earlier post.

I mean, a life is a life right?

Yes, a life is a life. But my first words were “the intentional taking of an innocent persons life”. That precludes spontaneous abortion from consideration leaving only willful abortion as the kind of abortion implied, and the only reason I mentioned any of it is that is to show that absolute logical reasoning can result in absurdity. If there are no guns there will be no gun deaths. That is a true joke. We will need to eliminate all militaries from the world. We will have to develop the capacity to trust which means we will need to be able to cure paranoia. That will require we build functional psychotherapy available to all we have any fear of things like guns. Then, when we have cured the world of madness of hiding behind somebody’s authoritative use of weapons to insure we don’t get attacked by ‘bad people’. We can move onto knives and forks but spare spoons. Naturally cars will have to go too and then we will have to have robots sterilize the living to prevent all future deaths.

 

[purbeast0]

Yes, a life is a life. But my first words were “the intentional taking of an innocent persons life”.

But drunk drivers kill people all the time unintentionally and take innocent people's lives. They didn't intend to actually kill the people that they did.

And they are charged with involuntarily manslaughter.

People who accidentally get pregnant and didn't intend to get pregnant means they didn't have intent of creating a new life.

It could just be a "oops" moment just like a drunk driver who kills someone accidentally.

 

[Moonbeam]

But drunk drivers kill people all the time unintentionally and take innocent people's lives. They didn't intend to actually kill the people that they did.

And they are charged with involuntarily manslaughter.

People who accidentally get pregnant and didn't intend to get pregnant means they didn't have intent of creating a new life.

It could just be a "oops" moment just like a drunk driver who kills someone accidentally.

You know the answer to this. I am not going to argue with silly ideas that would implicate you or your wife being guilty of any crime over your tragic experience. I have my own reasons for feeling for you and her.

 

[purbeast0]

You know the answer to this. I am not going to argue with silly ideas that would implicate you or your wife being guilty of any crime over your tragic experience. I have my own reasons for feeling for you and her.

I know what the logical answer to this is to most folk, but you aren't a logical person based on previous replies, so I am trying to understand your thought process between all of these comparable scenarios.

Remember, you are the one who brought up abortion in a thread about gun laws for some odd reason, not me.

 

[Moonbeam]

Since the thread about guns became about crime and abortion, allow me to add this:

THE ABORTED CRIME WAVE?

A controversial article links the recent drop in crime to the legalization of abortion two decades ago

www.scientificamerican.com

Still holds up after a 20 year review:

The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime over the Last Two Decades | Stanford Law School

Donohue and Levitt (2001) presented evidence that the legalization of abortion in the early 1970s played an important role in the crime drop of the 19

law.stanford.edu

Stewart hit it out of the park here. The argument for no regulation and restrictions on guns, while arguing in favor of both on EVERY OTHER constitutional right is absurd on its face.

To make it clear, I support private gun ownership: Well regulated, permitted on demand after a 100% mandatory background check and registration. NO private gun sales. All must be transacted with a licensed broker with federally regulated fees for background checks and gun registration.

Love your post and agree. I see in it support for my thesis that it is those must damaged and left behind in a competitive society that wind up with violent crime as either a way to survive or to end it with a police bullet. Gangs are just unregistered corporations with monopolistic designs designed to maximize profits at the expense of human lives.

As above so below as Hermes Trismegistus tells us from his enlightened experience, or the unity of opposites at some seemingly hypothetical state of consciousness unverifiable by an enfeebled science that insistence on data you can lay on the table before it can be believed to exist. I have heard for example there can be pleasure in imbibing a glass of wine but such a state of pleasure can't possible really exist. Where is there any proof that people have such an experience. And don't tell me I have to try a glass to know. Alcohol is a known toxin and I am a scientist who demands proof before I will believe.

Anyway, glad we agree on private gun ownership but with strong regulation rather that a creeping attempt to eliminate that very private ownership altogether.

 

[Moonbeam]

I know what the logical answer to this is to most folk, but you aren't a logical person based on previous replies, so I am trying to understand your thought process between all of these comparable scenarios.

Remember, you are the one who brought up abortion in a thread about gun laws for some odd reason, not me.

I brought it up because I wanted to draw a parallel between one form of absolute truth and another, in other words how what is logically absolute leads to disaster. You turned the issue into a personal example from something painful in your life that and for which I have deep sympathy. I made it clear I was talking only about abortion that is intended. You took it somewhere I will not follow out of respect. I am not try to defend of further justify or argue about anything relating to spontaneous abortion. Nothing I was trying to say has anything to do with that. I did not bring that subject up.

It's perfectly OK with me if you want to argue about what the law should or should not get involved with regarding spontaneous abortions, but I don't want to take part in that with you knowing your history as I do now.

 

[Pohemi]

....but I don't want to take part in that with you knowing your history as I do now.

Glad to see you've at least become more considerate of other people's pain than you use to be.

(Yes, this is a cheapshot from left field about super old shit...fite me)

 

[Jaskalas]

Only logic and reason has ever advanced mankind.

Those advancements are an accident, contrary to our true nature. Logic and reason do not drive us.
If they did, gun violence statistics alone would be enough to bring about change towards a statistically better outcome.
Yet most of us will still cling to the idea that having a gun will be our personal solution.
Many will cling to a cult and act in faith on the idea that liberals are evil fascists trying to take our freedoms away.

Take this topic. WTF has ever sounded logical and reasonable about it? You will tout something that matters to you and people you associate with. We will nod our heads, those who cling to institutions that still value logic and reason. Not everyone does, and if voting is any indication, frighteningly few do. That is my point and my message. Statistics will not win you this battle. Our actions must be more primitive than that. To target the "other" rather than preach to the choir.

 

[Moonbeam]

Logic and reason obviously has a place among humans.
No one build a power plant based on intuition.
We didn't pray a man to the moon.
Good vibes didn't create the internet.
Only logic and reason has ever advanced mankind.
To simply toss it out as to difficult is to accept the end of civilization.

I think there is a moral argument to be made for your point. Logic and Reason can bring about good things. It is the existence of the fact that we have pleasure and pain sensors to which are tied emotional experiences and the memory, conscious or unconsciously of them, that we are driven to try to reason and think logically.

Unfortunately, because of growing up in a society where a failure to comport with the local mores can lead to a psychic death sentence, we become desperate to abide by any old morals we happen to have been taught.

This precludes the ability to impartially reason but preserves the sense that whatever those morals we happened to have been forced to believe must still be absolutely the best of the best when it comes to reasoning and concurrent with the certainty that each of our views is the best of the best in logical reasoning. In the Ancient world in the city of Alexandria the best minds of that world gathered to think about thought itself. In that, I think, wisdom can be discovered. It was also the home of the practical application of knowledge as applied technology even to devices beyond the reach of their level of capacity to physically create. They had the leisure time to dream.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

good luck with that. If anything, the republicans have shown to not care about positive outcomes like you’re presenting. It’s about attacking the correct people groups.

Gotcha. You don't know how to convince Republicans that you are giving them their wet dream...so...instead...let's attack their gun ownership because they are super receptive to that. That's how we solve gun violence. Be afraid to do good things (end the war on drugs) because Republicans don't like it, but then propose things Republicans hate even worse (gun control) and then being surprised when we've been pushing this for 30 years and have fuckall to show for it.

 

[Moonbeam]

Glad to see you've at least become more considerate of other people's pain than you use to be.

(Yes, this is a cheapshot from left field about super old shit...fite me)

I don't think I have changed in that respect. I face a dilemma I can't see a way to avoid. I believe we are all deeply hurt and the only cure is to feel it. It is painful to me to know how much pain people endure because they won't see that the offenses they experience in life are painful because of childhood trauma and that present day offense is only those old feelings being triggered by familiarity. This is why most people in the West will get pissed if you call them an asshole but few will be phased if you call them that in Mongolian.

Perhaps as a result I said something that wasn't considerate and for you was especially painful. I am sorry for that. But I am apologizing in the dark.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Gotcha. You don't know how to convince Republicans that you are giving them their wet dream...so...instead...let's attack their gun ownership because they are super receptive to that. That's how we solve gun violence. Be afraid to do good things (end the war on drugs) because Republicans don't like it, but then propose things Republicans hate even worse (gun control) and then being surprised when we've been pushing this for 30 years and have fuckall to show for it.

I didn’t say all that, merely pointing out that republicans will attack anything D’s offer, even if it’s what they want

I welcome the end to the war on drugs and want all drugs legalized. Criminalizing drug use is the antithesis of freedom. Fund real education and help centers instead of jails.

now, if you think R’s are gonna get down with that, I got a pile of lulz here for ya.

 

[Pohemi]

It is painful to me to know how much pain people endure because they won't see that the offenses they experience in life are painful because of childhood trauma and that present day offense is only those old feelings being triggered by familiarity....

....Perhaps as a result I said something that wasn't considerate and for you was especially painful. I am sorry for that. But I am apologizing in the dark.

'You're only hurt or offended because of the way your abused inner-child reacts to hearing it, and it has nothing to do with me being an asshole.'



Yes, I understand this concept, that your anger or other emotion is only generated by yourself. I just don't buy it. Some people are just assholes and shitheads, plain and simple. You've been an exceptional one at times yourself.

And without getting into details...the vague reference I mentioned wasn't just inconsiderate, it was enough to get you a vacation from here, because it was intentionally hurtful.

Was that only because of how I took it? I don't think so.

 

[Moonbeam]

good luck with that. If anything, the republicans have shown to not care about positive outcomes like you’re presenting. It’s about attacking the correct people groups.

Gotcha. You don't know how to convince Republicans that you are giving them their wet dream...so...instead...let's attack their gun ownership because they are super receptive to that. That's how we solve gun violence. Be afraid to do good things (end the war on drugs) because Republicans don't like it, but then propose things Republicans hate even worse (gun control) and then being surprised when we've been pushing this for 30 years and have fuckall to show for it.

I am reminded of a German saying from the WW1 trenches: Die Lage ist hoffnungslos, aber nicht ernst. The situation is hopeless but not serious.

Damned if you do; damned if you don't.

 

[Moonbeam]

'You're only hurt or offended because of the way your abused inner-child reacts to hearing it, and it has nothing to do with me being an asshole.'



Yes, I understand this concept, that your anger or other emotion is only generated by yourself. I just don't buy it. Some people are just assholes and shitheads, plain and simple. You've been an exceptional one at times yourself.

And without getting into details...the vague reference I mentioned wasn't just inconsiderate, it was enough to get you a vacation from here, because it was intentionally hurtful.

Was that only because of how I took it? I don't think so.

Interesting. I have noticed before that people hold grievances against me supposedly for things I have said in reply to insults they gave me but I have no idea and no memory of what could have triggered my reply. I simply don't recall being insulted and I suspect the reason is that I don't take offenses personally to the extent that others do. I see any anger triggered by others toward me as being angry stupidly. If I feel offended I know it comes from my past. I don't claim to be perfect, not by far, but I have made some progress I think. Taking yourself seriously is ego in my opinion.

In short, I have no memory of being vacationed but you may be right. Water under the bridge as it were. Perhaps I can check in my personal information. I seem to remember people getting wound up about something. Having as I do an unusual point of view, at least in my opinion, I don't expect always to be understood for my actual intent. I don't worry about that and perhaps crossed some magical line that wasn't there for me.

Seems like there was someplace my past offenses were recorded but I can't find where. Perhaps there was a time limit involved that has expired. Not sure

 

[Pohemi]

Interesting. I have noticed before that people hold grievances against me supposedly for things I have said in reply to insults they gave me but I have no idea and no memory of what could have triggered my reply.

In short, I have no memory of being vacationed but you may be right. Water under the bridge as it were. Perhaps I can check in my personal information. I seem to remember people getting wound up about something.

Except, that's not what this was. It wasn't you replying to being insulted by me and then me getting upset by your reply. It was of your own mind and entirely unprovoked.
It was you being the sole one to enter a thread about tragedy, blame the victim, then accuse me of trying to garner attention by posting about it.

Understand...this isn't an old grievance or grudge that I'm hanging onto...and it happened 14 years ago now. I just don't forget things that sting like that is all. And tbh it was only summarized for me 2nd hand by another member who had the chance to see the post before removal. The mods removed it so quickly for being vile under the circumstances.

I brought it up as a generalized example in response to your statement about how people taking offense is only on themselves, as if it has nothing to do with the one throwing it out into the world. It's BS.

 

[Moonbeam]

Except, that's not what this was. It wasn't you replying to being insulted by me and then me getting upset by your reply. It was of your own mind and entirely unprovoked.
It was you being the sole one to enter a thread about tragedy, blame the victim, then accuse me of trying to garner attention by posting about it.

Understand...this isn't an old grievance or grudge that I'm hanging onto...and it happened 14 years ago now. I just don't forget things that sting like that is all. And tbh it was only summarized for me 2nd hand by another member who had the chance to see the post before removal. The mods removed it so quickly for being vile under the circumstances.

I brought it up as a generalized example in response to your statement about how people taking offense is only on themselves.

Sorry I don't remember. You may know that as I see people being the victims of programming rather than being intrinsically evil I don't blame anybody for anything. That may mean that I failed to blame somebody for something you thought they should be blamed for????? Perhaps you might want to PM me as to what someone told you I said if not here.

 

[HomerJS]

It’s not that nothing can be done. It’s that the simplicity of thinking the answer to school shootings etc can be achieved by banning guns is at present a pipe dream. The more gun violence there is the tighter the grip on guns will become as will any attempt to ban them. Self preservation is Job 1.

The answer to violence and the subset gun violence, is to decrease the despair our culture creates. But that takes psychological understanding absent in relative terms from our culture or we wouldn’t be where we are.

Odd that kind of despair in civilized countries only exists in the United States

 

[Moonbeam]

Odd that kind of despair in civilized countries only exists in the United States

Am I to assume you are not pissed about all the injustice. Many societal problems can be solved by taking away rights. We could maybe create a safe society if we could develop and implant a rage meter, the removal of which would be fatal, that alerted the authorities if we were having violent thoughts.

The US is not alone but it has a very bad case.

 

[HomerJS]

Am I to assume you are not pissed about all the injustice. Many societal problems can be solved by taking away rights. We could maybe create a safe society if we could develop and implant a rage meter, the removal of which would be fatal, that alerted the authorities if we were having violent thoughts.

The US is not alone but it has a very bad case.

You know the stats as well. People in the US are 10x more likely to die from guns. We are not exposed to any unique circumstances from other civilized countries yet there is one thing that differentiates us.
Are people in the US inherently more violent then other countries? Are people in the US more irresponsible?

We did an assault weapons ban in 94. What were the results when enacted and when Republicans let it expire?

Time to stop blaming video games and single parent households and pay attention to what worked. Not calling for a ban on all guns but IMHO a semi automatic weapon with a 100 round mag is not defensive but offensive

 

[HomerJS]

..

 

[13Gigatons]

Since Steward and everyone on this forum can't do math:


Also from the CDC:

FastStats

FastStats is an official application from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) and puts access to topic-specific statistics at your fingertips.

www.cdc.gov

 

[Moonbeam]

You know the stats as well. People in the US are 10x more likely to die from guns. We are not exposed to any unique circumstances from other civilized countries yet there is one thing that differentiates us.
Are people in the US inherently more violent then other countries? Are people in the US more irresponsible?

We did an assault weapons ban in 94. What were the results when enacted and when Republicans let it expire?

Time to stop blaming video games and single parent households and pay attention to what worked. Not calling for a ban on all guns but IMHO a semi automatic weapon with a 100 round mag is not defensive but offensive

It is a semi with a 100 round magazine. Personally I am legally only able to own a 10 round magazine AR but I would prefer to be able to have at least 20 rounds. 100 rounds would make the weapon to cumbersome to use for self defense in my opinion. Ammo is heavy. I am fine with regulations but not bans. The most objectionable ban for me is that in California silencers are illegal. They aren't silent but they muffle sound sufficiently in many cases so you don't need hearing protection when our in the wild target shooting alone.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Since Steward and everyone on this forum can't do math:
View attachment 77753

Also from the CDC:

FastStats

FastStats is an official application from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) and puts access to topic-specific statistics at your fingertips.

www.cdc.gov

View attachment 77754

you know you can walk and chew bubblegum right?
We have active research on basically all those other diseases. But republicans barred any federal funding of research into guns and public health.

If a doctor so much as tells you that there is a risk associated with having a firearm in the house, conservatives flip shit