Jon Stewart on guns and public safety...

[nakedfrog]

Can you just imagine Jon interviewing Marge Greene over gun laws? I'd pay a good chunk of cash to see that in person.

He'd need some protective gear, maybe a hockey goalie helmet to prevent self-injury from slamming his head on the desk or facepalming with brutal force.

 

[fskimospy]

But isn't what you say you feel in the post you quoted by Jaskalas also facts? Are you talking facts or statistics? I would say it's factual that there are people in the world who were you to be targeted by them for some reason could easily decide to kill you. In many of such situations, where one's own life is under immediate threat if one had a weapon for self defense the threat could be ended regardless of the relative body strength of either person.

We know for a fact that many people have successfully saved their own lives and or the lives of loved ones by the self-defense use of a firearm. So regardless of whether that arm makes the general population safer of more at risk of shooting themselves or whatever, it still is a fact that there is a possibility that having a gun handy can save a person's life. We can say with certainty, then that if all guns are banned some of people who obey the law will be killed because they lack that form of self defense.

It seems to me that it is the right of self defense is primary among all the rights that exist because each of us is here as a result of ancestors who were among the fittest, those on average who had the skill set to survive, to protect their own lives.

In my opinion, therefore and as a result, any party attempting to ban firearms, a means by which the physically weaker can equalize advantage, is stark raving mad as there is no logic in the world that can replace the will to survive including a statistical analysis that says I'm safer without a gun. To me the logic that if I own a gun I may be able to use it to save my or someone else's life because of it far outweighs the logic that statistically I am at greater risk. I have gotten used to the fact that statistically speaking, of course, life itself is 100% fatal. There is logic and the matter of the logical use of it. We hold differing opinions there. My concern is that the gun issue makes too many people with sound gut instincts vote Republican against so many of their other best self interests.

As with housing so many of societal problems caused by the hate generated by competition simply go unaddressed based always and everywhere on whose ox gets gored. The winners don't want to change the system be they Republicans or Democrats except for changes that don't affect their own personal status and wealth. The country is mentally ill and in deep denial. Fix that and problems will melt away.

We know for a fact that if you own a gun you are more likely to die than if you don’t. That seems to be the relevant fact.

Much like with homelessness the gun debate relies on people deciding that we must fix mental illness, which we can’t fix, as opposed to taking the obvious route.

I would prefer people to just be honest that they don’t want gun control and are okay with mass death.

 

[Moonbeam]

We know for a fact that if you own a gun you are more likely to die than if you don’t. That seems to be the relevant fact.

Much like with homelessness the gun debate relies on people deciding that we must fix mental illness, which we can’t fix, as opposed to taking the obvious route.

I would prefer people to just be honest that they don’t want gun control and are okay with mass death.

Interesting! We can’t fix mental illness, according to you. Sounds like you’re OK with mental illness. Funny. I have Apple TV and watched the full Jon Stewart thingi. I agree with everything that he said. He is for regulation and opposes a gun ban. He is quite sane in my opinion.

Your problem, in my opinion, is that what you think relevant actually isn’t the relevant thing at all. What is relevant is this:

It is a fact that a gun can save your life in certain situations and that fact is much more important to people who own guns for self defense, than worry about being a gun statistic. Anybody can be a statistic. Only some of the armed will die from a violence intended attack. Some will kill their attackers. That is what is relevant.

 

[Meghan54]

Interesting! We can’t fix mental illness, according to you. Sounds like you’re OK with mental illness. Funny. I have Apple TV and watched the full Jon Stewart thingi. I agree with everything that he said. He is for regulation and opposes a gun ban. He is quite sane in my opinion.

Your problem, in my opinion, is that what you think relevant actually isn’t the relevant thing at all. What is relevant is this:

It is a fact that a gun can save your life in certain situations and that fact is much more important to people who own guns for self defense, than worry about being a gun statistic. Anybody can be a statistic. Only some of the armed will die from a violence intended attack. Some will kill their attackers. That is what is relevant.

So you’re good with guns being the number one suicide route, eh?

Besides that…like Stewart asked…how many more guns on the market do there have to be before shooting deaths in this country begin to drop? I mean, since you always have all the irrelevant answers.

 

[fskimospy]

Interesting! We can’t fix mental illness, according to you. Sounds like you’re OK with mental illness. Funny. I have Apple TV and watched the full Jon Stewart thingi. I agree with everything that he said. He is for regulation and opposes a gun ban. He is quite sane in my opinion.

Your problem, in my opinion, is that what you think relevant actually isn’t the relevant thing at all. What is relevant is this:

It is a fact that a gun can save your life in certain situations and that fact is much more important to people who own guns for self defense, than worry about being a gun statistic. Anybody can be a statistic. Only some of the armed will die from a violence intended attack. Some will kill their attackers. That is what is relevant.

Can you tell me one mental illness we have cured?

 

[SMOGZINN]

Which straw man arguments were those? The ones based on legislation he and his party support or the concerns the politician says are important to him?

Just because it are true does not mean it is not a strawman to the argument being made.

 

[cytg111]

Jon's still got it.

Indeed. He needs to come back.

 

[cytg111]

Can you just imagine Jon interviewing Marge Greene over gun laws? I'd pay a good chunk of cash to see that in person.

Being that I own guns I can say I'd have no problem having registration laws passed as well as background checks. It seems to me the only folks having a problem with that are those that would not want to be held liable for their negligence and irresponsibility irt the handling f their weapons.

Jons line of argument requires his opponent to respect reason and logic and Marge does not subscribe to either. She'd just babble babble nonsense over him and walk out. Marge is a different species. You cant reason with her on a human to human level.

 

[zinfamous]

I wish I had Apple TV so I could watch this full episode, but this 8 minute clip here is just .... wow. Talk about completely and utterly ripping someone's argument apart lol. Dude tries to pivot and change the subject so many times but Stewart doesn't allow it.

I just watched this and thought it deserved it's own thread.

It's worth the 8 minutes.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1631610370887491584

Fuck Oklahoma and that elected piece of shit in particular.

 

[Moonbeam]

So you’re good with guns being the number one suicide route, eh?

No, not good with that.

What I am good with is that I don’t want to forfeit my right of self defense because you don’t have the courage to face and thus have any idea what to do about why people wind up wanting to kill themselves. You don’t want to know that you are the reason that others die from despair.

Your cowardliness is why others have to die. You too would rather die than know it.

 

[trenchfoot]

Jons line of argument requires his opponent to respect reason and logic and Marge does not subscribe to either. She'd just babble babble nonsense over him and walk out. Marge is a different species. You cant reason with her on a human to human level.

I'm thinking there's quite a few other dimwit chukleheads....erm......"conservatives" that are rubber molded dog poop duplicates of Greene that would perform the same act mostly because they are all stuffed full of shit with no room left for meaningful dialogue that would invariably lead them to commit acts of self-incrimination anyway.

 

[Moonbeam]

Besides that…like Stewart asked…how many more guns on the market do there have to be before shooting deaths in this country begin to drop? I mean, since you always have all the irrelevant answers.

I have the answers I have, the best I can do according to what I believe is the truth. Your attempt to impart an ego attachment me to my opinions is duly noted and dismissed. I offer only what I see as best. I could as easily believe as you do were that what my evolution had shown me. I think it is madness to divide the world according to some inner motivation that demands self aggrandizement and attention.

As I said, I favor gun regulation and the reduction of hate in our society by making it more human caring, less driven by competition generally as I believe it is unconscious repressed feelings of hate that drive crime, violence, and suicide as well as most everything else wrong with the world. We were taught to hold losers in contempt and we have all experienced what that means. Every act of suicide removes one more worthless person from the world, in whose opinion? In the opinion of the one using a gun to finalize the act. The past of far too many is too painful to consciously admit so we take the easy way out.

It is the same thing with mass killings with guns, the need to affirm one's ego by the only way those convinced of their inner worthlessness can, by staging an act so outrageously sick as to garner mass attention. So blame the media for the violence in schools. The attention they bring to the scenes of violence have created a new right of passage for children living a live tormented by an inner hell. If it bleeds it leads, the alchemy of turning lead into gold.

Just try to pass a blackout on the mass televising of school shootings if you want to see some 'real' tears. I bet it would be called unconstitutional, but let's not change that. The problem is guns. Always the means and never the motivation. There will always be a means there doesn't always need to be a motivation.

So when Democrats swear to ban the sale of guns sales of guns go up. They disappear from the market as fast as they appear. If you want gun sales to fall change the structure of society so that it does not create a population traumatized by self hate. It's easy. The weapon that creates madness is Put Downs. Stop creating a society where money is everything and the major symbol of self worth.

Once you feel worthless nothing external can fix it. Only the Hero's journey can. The art and practice of self healing is as old as the first words spoken implying contempt for human nature. It is everywhere but overwhelmed by fear of losing.

 

[Moonbeam]

Can you tell me one mental illness we have cured?

That's not how to look at it. There are many kinds of mental illness with many different causes. Some may be chemically induced and cured with a pill. Perhaps one day even the cause of a chemical abnormality will be able to be cured via gene therapy. But the point is that although we have names for various forms of mental illness and there is no reason to suspect the names themselves will not go away, the number of people suffering from such an illness can change.

In this way, although existential angst might be classified as a mental illness and always a condition people can fall into, there is a cure for it sometimes referred to as enlightenment. In my experience I believe I met a person who suffered from self hate and completely cured himself of it. He simply felt what he felt about himself and saw via reliving the actual acquisition of the disease in childhood was also able to see that everything he was taught about his self worthlessness was a lie.

Earlier though he said he had no idea he was sick, being, as he was, a highly motivated and successful person. His journey was driven by a quest to discover why with all of the perfect life he and his wife enjoyed beyond an others he knew she divorced him out of the blue.

 

[Jaskalas]

Jons line of argument requires his opponent to respect reason and logic and Marge does not subscribe to either. She'd just babble babble nonsense over him and walk out. Marge is a different species. You cant reason with her on a human to human level.

While you are correct at large, I find the spirit of your words somewhat misplaced.
For it is...to be irrational, is to be human.

Reason is an accident of our institutional history. Of our culture. Those who stray from it will never be bound by the same "laws" we adhere to. Yet that madness is all too familiar, for you will find it the world over. It has ever been... everywhere. Including among us. For the only thing that binds us is our trust in one another. Our people must trust those who inform them, or they will never be swayed by it. Voices have risen that spread distrust, and they will be just as powerful as any other voice.

Imagine, dissent is all it will take to unmake all that we are.

And so our contest is not one familiar to educated minds in the field of study. Who think they can argue their way out of this one. Instead, we are challenged by more basic human behavior. In every single way, our opponents will act with faith. They will behave like a religion. This is not the stuff of Democracy, nor civil discourse. Sadly. We must use our remaining strength in a battle of wills, to impose upon our opponents and use not reason, but our own propaganda and force. To shape our society back into something that can see reason from madness. At any step of the way, we may fail. Yet there is nothing else we can do.

Republicans say our Democracy is dead. Though it may rise from the ashes, our struggle will be something else entirely. I can but pray we do not entirely lose ourselves along the way.

 

[Pohemi]

Interesting! We can’t fix mental illness, according to you. Sounds like you’re OK with mental illness. Funny.

I don't know that it's what fskimospy was referring to, but it seems that when someone (typically a Democrat) wants to talk about gun control and regulations post gun violence, conservatives want to blame mental illness. The problem is that it's the ONLY time they bring it up. Most will never discuss it afterwards, or do anything in legislation to try to fix it.

Conservatives are the only ones in the past 50+ years that have reduced mental healthcare in our country. Reagan did the most damage to it.

You don’t want to know that you are the reason that others die from despair.
Your cowardliness is why others have to die. You too would rather die than know it.

What? I don't even understand what that means.

Also...you mentioned how Democrats saying they want to ban guns increases gun sales. When a Democrat president is elected, yes, they typically increase. Idiots get scared that, "Dey guun take er guns!"

Can you tell me what Democrats have stated they want to actually BAN guns outright, other than "assault rifles"? (I know that term is a misnomer) I have not seen that, although it's been made a boogeyman for decades.

 

[fskimospy]

That's not how to look at it. There are many kinds of mental illness with many different causes. Some may be chemically induced and cured with a pill. Perhaps one day even the cause of a chemical abnormality will be able to be cured via gene therapy. But the point is that although we have names for various forms of mental illness and there is no reason to suspect the names themselves will not go away, the number of people suffering from such an illness can change.

In this way, although existential angst might be classified as a mental illness and always a condition people can fall into, there is a cure for it sometimes referred to as enlightenment. In my experience I believe I met a person who suffered from self hate and completely cured himself of it. He simply felt what he felt about himself and saw via reliving the actual acquisition of the disease in childhood was also able to see that everything he was taught about his self worthlessness was a lie.

Earlier though he said he had no idea he was sick, being, as he was, a highly motivated and successful person. His journey was driven by a quest to discover why with all of the perfect life he and his wife enjoyed beyond an others he knew she divorced him out of the blue.

So we agree the number is zero, haha. There’s your answer.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't know that it's what fskimospy was referring to, but it seems that when someone (typically a Democrat) wants to talk about gun control and regulations post gun violence, conservatives want to blame mental illness. The problem is that it's the ONLY time they bring it up. Most will never discuss it afterwards, or do anything in legislation to try to fix it.

We both know that Republicans will resort to any rationalization to justify their sacred cows. I am saying that when it comes to fixing the sick system that produces the violence that gets commonly expressed via guns Democrats aren't really that different. They are just fine with supporting a competitive society that creates all that hate. They blame guns like Republicans blame mental illness.

Conservatives are the only ones in the past 50+ years that have reduced mental healthcare in our country. Reagan did the most damage to it.

What? I don't even understand what that means.

Again we agree. I distinguish, however between funding mental health to making it more available and correcting the structure of society that is creating mental illness in the first place. When it comes to that Democrats are just as obstructionists as Republicans. Naturally you don't understand what I mean because as I have said a million times you are motivated not to understand. You would have first to face the fact of your own inner violence, something you do not know how deeply you feel. It would be like asking drug addicts to address solve the addiction problem.

Also...you mentioned how Democrats saying they want to ban guns increases gun sales. When a Democrat president is elected, yes, they typically increase. Idiots get scared that, "Dey guun take er guns!"

Exactly what I was referring to.

Can you tell me what Democrats have stated they want to actually BAN guns outright, other than "assault rifles"? (I know that term is a misnomer) I have not seen that, although it's been made a boogeyman for decades.

No, I can't tell you. There are Democrats who want all guns banned, there is Republican hype that all liberals want to take away their guns. There are Democrats who want better gun regulation. There are those who go after modern up-to-date rifles like the AR platform ones.

Criminals will want the best guns they can get. I want the right to arm myself equivalently to have a similar chance if attacked. The hysterical fear of the modern AR sporting rifle is in my opinion based on ignorant fear. You can buy a dear rifle that is far and away more deadly round for round than the scary looking AR 15 chambered in 556. It isn't just Republicans to try to childishly use fear to scare people to vote their way.

I'm hoping my gun looks so scary to anybody I might have a reason to defend myself against with it that they run away in terror before I can fire a round.

 

[purbeast0]

No, not good with that.

What I am good with is that I don’t want to forfeit my right of self defense because you don’t have the courage to face and thus have any idea what to do about why people wind up wanting to kill themselves. You don’t want to know that you are the reason that others die from despair.

Your cowardliness is why others have to die. You too would rather die than know it.

So how do all of these other countries that have massive gun regulations/bans deal with self defense if they don't have guns?

How come their gun deaths aren't even HIGHER than here since only criminals are the ones with guns and no one can defend themselves against them?

 

[fskimospy]

So how do all of these other countries that have massive gun regulations/bans deal with self defense if they don't have guns?

How come their gun deaths aren't even HIGHER than here since only criminals are the ones with guns and no one can defend themselves against them?

It’s kind of funny that he’s making exactly the same argument that Stewart demolished.

Guns do not make you safer. Full stop. If you are buying one for self defense you are making a stupid decision.

 

[Zorba]

Masks too. Can't have that get in the way of learning to hide silently in the closet while barricading the door.

For the record this DBag is who wrote the law to ban masks in Oklahoma schools.

Dahm is the worst of the worst in Oklahoma. Basically our Desantis. I am surprised he held up as well as he did, actually.

 

[HomerJS]

Criminals will want the best guns they can get. I want the right to arm myself equivalently to have a similar chance if attacked. The hysterical fear of the modern AR sporting rifle is in my opinion based on ignorant fear. You can buy a dear rifle that is far and away more deadly round for round than the scary looking AR 15 chambered in 556. It isn't just Republicans to try to childishly use fear to scare people to vote their way.

I'm hoping my gun looks so scary to anybody I might have a reason to defend myself against with it that they run away in terror before I can fire a round.

"Criminals will want the best gun they can get." Sounds like you are advocating for MAD just on a personal level and we see what that did for countries. What if we limit the guns EVERYONE can get?

Not being a gun owner but just an observer IMO a skilled user of a handgun has the best chance of defending themselves. Studies were done on police shootings and their accuracy rate was a staggering 18%
Cops face hard time hitting targets in gunfights. Can teachers do it? (ajc.com)

You are saying in order to defend myself I need the best gun possible. I love using illustrative examples, so I'll give you this.

The Dodge Hellcat was released in 2014. All in its 707 HP lime green goodness. Guy crashed one hour after picking it up. At the time it was the fastest most powerful production car. However, having all that power did nothing but almost get that guy killed.

Republicans are hell bent on arming teachers when police have an 18% hit rate. Does that make a lot of sense?

I fail to see where having an AR-15 with a 100 round mag for self defense makes you safer. You are a smart guy so I don't have to tell you the stats on gun owners more likely to be shot.

More and bigger guns can't be the answer.

 

[purbeast0]

LOL just came across this video as well.

We're the laughing stock of the world.

 

[Moonbeam]

So we agree the number is zero, haha. There’s your answer.

What I suggested as my answer is that because you have used a term like mental illness without defining or having any idea yourself as to what exactly mental illness is, the term being a catch all for many possible conditions, there can be no answer to your question because you do not know what your question actually is.

Let us theorize then, that you are mentally I’ll but do not know you are and ask if there is a cure to a disease that has as part of its cure the recognition, first, that one is ill. The answer then is that it all depends.

There is no cure for such a condition as unrecognized mental illness because there will be no intention to seek it. In such a condition the asking of your question is not serious. You are not looking for an answer but an argument.

I have stated many times that the truth is 180 degrees from where we look. That is because the ego does the looking. It is like a snake eating it’s tail. Thought takes us round and round in circles. Ego is the disease. Ego is thought, thought is time, time is memory, memory is attachment, attachment is fear, fear is thought…….

The seeker is a fragment of a divided self that sees as if it were undivided. The eye cannot see itself. Besides the duality of thought is there a third way, a third eye, simply being here. Somewhere I think we all remember.

 

[Moonbeam]

So how do all of these other countries that have massive gun regulations/bans deal with self defense if they don't have guns?

How come their gun deaths aren't even HIGHER than here since only criminals are the ones with guns and no one can defend themselves against them?

How is it a legless frog not bump his ass off?

 

[Pohemi]

Well my last post quoting you, I thought I had a pretty reasonable response. Then I get a bunch of idiocy back from you, so...here we go again.

We both know that Republicans will resort to any rationalization to justify their sacred cows. I am saying that when it comes to fixing the sick system that produces the violence that gets commonly expressed via guns Democrats aren't really that different. They are just fine with supporting a competitive society that creates all that hate. They blame guns like Republicans blame mental illness.

Projection and deflection in the underlined. It makes no sense, and it isn't because it's some mystical knowledge. It's just bullshit. Democrats are not constantly defunding mental health programs and putting people that need help out the door.

I distinguish, however between funding mental health to making it more available and correcting the structure of society that is creating mental illness in the first place. When it comes to that Democrats are just as obstructionists as Republicans.

That's a very generalized statement that basically just spreads the blame across everyone because our society is so fucked up. A good opportunity to #bothsides amirite?

What I am good with is that I don’t want to forfeit my right of self defense because you don’t have the courage to face and thus have any idea what to do about why people wind up wanting to kill themselves. You don’t want to know that you are the reason that others die from despair.
Your cowardliness is why others have to die. You too would rather die than know it.

What? I don't even understand what that means.

Naturally you don't understand what I mean because as I have said a million times you are motivated not to understand. You would have first to face the fact of your own inner violence, something you do not know how deeply you feel.

Yes, I'm such a violent liberal because I get pissed at conservatives being shitty humans.
Once again you think you are the arbiter of how everyone else feels and operates subconsciously.

I understood what you were trying to convey, so I shouldn't have stated that I didn't understand. I did understand your statement, but I was trying to point out how ridiculous it sounds. We're talking about gun violence, and you deflect to, "No, YOU'RE the violent ones because you want to ban guns or control what I can own and shoot people with!"

No, I can't tell you.
There are Democrats who want all guns banned....

So you can't give a single example, but repeat the bullshit anyway. Okay then. You could have at least mentioned Beto, FFS.

...there is Republican hype that all liberals want to take away their guns. There are Democrats who want better gun regulation. There are those who go after modern up-to-date rifles like the AR platform ones.

Criminals will want the best guns they can get. I want the right to arm myself equivalently to have a similar chance if attacked. The hysterical fear of the modern AR sporting rifle is in my opinion based on ignorant fear. You can buy a dear rifle that is far and away more deadly round for round than the scary looking AR 15 chambered in 556. It isn't just Republicans to try to childishly use fear to scare people to vote their way.

Sure, so only mention the 556 chambered version, when there are at least half a dozen others such as the .308. You know, a deer-hunting round? That's pretty disingenuous to only mention the most common variety and act like the others don't exist and the 556 isn't as deadly. Horseshit.

I'm hoping my gun looks so scary to anybody I might have a reason to defend myself against with it that they run away in terror before I can fire a round.

So, intimidation in the hope of avoiding having to shoot is your goal? That's not a very good plan, IMHO. And it doesn't justify your continual reactions to certain types of guns being proposed for a ban or at least high limitation/requirements to own.

Your overall message in your last number of posts in the thread has been, 'You can't get rid of guns before getting rid of ALL of societies other problems first, including mental illness and all of the reasons for the poor mental health to begin with.'

And everyone is equally to blame for societies problems that cause the metal illness. Okay...I've never claimed Dems are perfect by policy or behavior, but answer this:

Who has railed against most ANY type of gun control?
Who has tried to destroy mental healthcare, and socialistic healthcare in general?
Who has tried to keep the working class in positions of low-wage, long hour jobs under the guise of bootstraps?
Who has tried to destroy most if not all programs that help the general populace instead of just their wealthy contributors?