So longer way of saying zero. Got it.
Now that we know we can’t cure mental illness we can take that off the table as cures for gun violence. So let’s go with the tried and true method - banning guns.
Now that we know we can’t cure mental illness we can take that off the table as cures for gun violence. So let’s go with the tried and true method - banning guns.
Pohemi
Lifer
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I don't agree with the idea of outright bans, but much tighter regulation and control? Fuck yes.
What I DO agree with is that the mental health/societal issue is nothing but deflection to say nothing can be fixed until those societal issues are remedied.
To be more specific about what I said as a resident of California. I don’t want the state legislating gun laws that disadvantage my capacity to defend myself against illegally imported guns that can be bought legally in self defense friendly states.
There is a balance between the size and weight including subjective personal preferences that go into choosing a gun for self defense. What makes no sense to you may seem ideal to someone else. Personally, and in the opinion of many, the more rounds you can pack into a firearm and still retain full functionality, as personal taste would have it, the more optimal such a gun would be in some theoretical fire fight. If you have to reload and the other guy doesn’t, you are at a disadvantage.
My objection, then, isto other people like politicians appealing to gun fears among voters who don’t want to involve themselves in their own options to defend themselves making choices for me that are legal elsewhere.
What I have described above is my personal theoretical belief as to what my rights SHOULD BE. In practice I like guns as objects. I own my father’s Smith and Wesson 38 special he bought as a young man for home defense. I don’t know if he ever shot it. I know I haven’t. I probably never will because even though I am recently renewed with an interest in guns, having bought a few, I may never shoot them. I debate even cleaning them of their factory new preservative lubricants. None of my guns are self defense ready as in loaded and ready to go. I keep guns and ammo separate. My old ones are in various states of disassembly since I got interested in cleaning them up. I like mechanical things.
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Have you never realized that you can get. You asked why people don't need guns for self defense in a country where a ban on guns means nobody has such weapons either to use in self defense or to attack anybody with. I think my answer fit your question.
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So you're saying if they were banned in the USA then nobody would have such weapons to attack anyone with, including criminals?
And you'd be against there being no guns in America which means thousands of lives wouldn't be taken every year due to gun deaths?
Well my last post quoting you, I thought I had a pretty reasonable response. Then I get a bunch of idiocy back from you, so...here we go again.
Not my intention. I would respond to this but I don't know exactly what you refer to as idiocy and why you think it is. I do hear something that sounds to me like frustrated anger.
I told you I agree with your complaints about Republicans and that Democrats do much more for mental health than they do. I keep trying to tell you that there is a difference between caring for the mentally ill and curing the causes of it. The system I refer to is not the one you are talking about. The system I want to fix is the system of competition we live under that produces all the hate behind gun and every other form of violence. Democrats are sympathetic to treating the symptoms but do not see or what to see what the real causes are. They are part of that system and derive positive ego gratification from it. It is societies winners that make the laws and they make them to preserve what they have.
Perhaps, as an alternate example, you have noticed that white people can be totally blind to the privileges they have from being white without the slightest realization of that blindness. Make sure you understand that when I talk about systemic changes I mean changes to the heart of the system, not improving the system from within. I want a sane culture, not one that produces and then just cares for the fallout mentally ill. I'm all for that but I want much more.
Let's start with the fact that our society is very fucked up and one side wants to make it better in superficial but not profound ways and the other side wants no improvement at all. Now within that struggle one side blames the other for everything and the other side blames them back each pointing to the flaws of the other as a tool to rationalize. It will become obvious that this kind of both sides blaming will be seen as a tool of deflection and each side will blame whoever disagrees with their position to be guilty of it.
Then along I come saying that the system itself is fucked that neither side is doing what it takes to produce real change. The question you should ask in my opinion is not if I am both siding the issue but if I am right or not. I see only one side, that both sides of the system are fucked and that is the product of how the system is. Hope this helps.
Yes, I'm such a violent liberal because I get pissed at conservatives being shitty humans.
When you see the world as I do, that people are conditioned from childhood to defend themselves against implied guilt for the sake of ego survival, the will to blame them for your own suffering becomes impossible. I call this the limits of rage, or bearing the cross like Jesus did, to let go of revenge and forgive because the guilty party, guilty here simply meaning at cause, is the ego itself. I am the reason I suffer not anybody else. I will not forgive and free myself of violence.
I see what I see. My seeing arbitrates what I see. I can tell you what I see but I can never ever make you see anything you do not what to see or do not believe is there for the seeing. Any feelings of force you experience are of your own creation according to what I see. I,m guessing you will disagree.
We are not talking about gun violence from my perspective. You are talking about it from your perspective, the one you see. From my perspective you do not see that your perspective fails to account for the actual cause of gun violence, the violence life within our system creates and because you are unconsious of your ego attachment to that very system. Your inability, unconscious motivation not to deal with the real issue magnified by millions of others of the same perspective means that nothing real will get done to eliminate the violence our system creates for us within. Remember, you are at cause but you are not guilty. But the system condemned you long ago and you carry the scars of guilt which by informing you of that fact you project as a desire to kill the messenger. It's what the system does to people who remain asleep to their own true feelings.
I am interested in informing you of what the facts are according to what I see, not is arguing what liberal wants to ban or not ban guns. I already acknowledged that you are not one of those. I salute you for that as I agree.
Well aware of all that. That is why I mentioned the most common AR build. The beauty or in your case ugliness of the AR platform is its tremendous versatility and capacity for customization. You bring up AR 10 builds etc that are chambered for more powerful rounds but didn't mention that the AR platform aside form 223 and 556 is also able to be configured for 22 LR and other less powerful rounds some of which are also excellent for home defense.
The only real interest I have in an AR is for longer range target shooting, something I may never get around to doing because I don't really know where to go to shoot. I am not interested in shooting at a range. I would just like to be out in the wild somewhere alone, just me and a target exploring how far away my rifle is accurate. Fun fun fun too imagine, but work to make happen, ugg.
It was just a hope I hope I will never see happen. It wasn't meant to justify anything. It is just a possibility that comes from the irrational fear of the AR 15 platform and the contageous nature of that hysteria. Even a 22 can be deadly and is better than nothing for home defense.
Again I agree. I don't want to get rid of guns, but I support sensible gun regulation as well as better care for the mentally illness, whatever that is.
I am against the way you reason. If you ban guns in the US there will still be millions of guns that people will never surrender making criminals out of millions of people who have the good sense to want to protect themselves against others who are armed. So I am neither for or against no guns being in America because it is already full of guns and that isn't going to change until the second amendment does. I suggest you 'get real'.
How about doing something sensible instead. Since there is no cure for mental illness let's just ban people form getting mentally ill.
Think of a gun as a house and the body as land. Why won't you let me build as many guns on my body as I want to build and you keep your land fallow if that is your personal wish. Why do you want to tell me what to do on my land. Worried I might put some lead in your property? I am willing to abide by some reasonable zoning laws. You don't dump any lead on my land and I will reciprocate. Thanks.
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So by your logic there should also be thousands/hundreds of thousands/millions of guns that people never surrendered in Australia as well and still in the hands of criminals.
How come there aren't a bunch of gun deaths from those criminals against people who can't defend theirselves with guns since they are illegal?
My logic tells me I have no idea how many illegal guns there are in Australia but if there are and the result of not being turned in perhaps they are only used for self defense and never for offensive purposes since even getting caught with one would result in a sentence to prison.
My turn for a question. If someone innocent of anything themselves were gunned down before your eyes, a killing you could have prevented from happening had you been armed, would you choose, if you could relive that moment again, this time knowing it was coming, relive it again unarmed?
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If I could relive your hypothetical situation, I would have done something to prevent any guns from ever being fired and anyone from being shot and killed.
Oh and for the record, my brother in law was murdered on Christmas Eve last year and was shot 3 times, one of them through the neck and out of his cheek. The guy who shot him was a felon who shot him with a stolen gun. You know where that stolen gun originated from? A responsible gun owner, who was responsible until they weren't.
If I could relive that REAL situation that happened, I would have just prevented my bro in law from ever being in the situation to be shot and killed, again, making it so NO gun was fired and nobody was shot and killed.
Back to your logic, why does your logic tell you there would be millions of illegal guns in America but your logic doesn't tell you how many illegal guns there are in Australia?
It's almost as if you are just completely making shit up.
Would you like more people to be killed or fewer people to be killed?
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Exactly.
My reliving the moment would be an option that he did not present - one where no lives are lost and no guns are present.
You did not answer my question. The only option I offered was to relive the situation again with or without arms. That is the only option I offered to know before hand. Any sane person would find another way if they could. In real life one can choose to have or not have a gun for self defense.
Why do people steal? I think the answer is that they feel so worthless unconsciously that they have given up on the notion that via their own poser they could ever have anything worth while so they steal from people who aren't themselves that completely defeated and struggle to play by the rules causing others who struggle to feel the same kind of rage by stealing from them.
I told you what I would like, to fix the mental health issue, reduce the violence created by the fact we do nothing to address the real issue, hate created by competition. Why do you want people to keep dying from violence that doesn't have to exist and will remain long after there's not a single gun in the world. Why do you keep all of your efforts bandaging the dying and do nothing to address the cause. You have fallen in love with the bandage. Bandages are all well and good but they are not a fix for the reasons triggers are pulled.
Right but you also agreed curing mental illness is impossible.
It’s sad that you can’t understand the world as it really exists. You’re asleep and we can’t wake you up.
Scarpozzi
Lifer
- Jun 13, 2000
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I'm not really into kink, but like seeing Jon spank other grown men publicly.
Pohemi
Lifer
- Oct 2, 2004
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Moonie, you 'hear frustrated anger' in my words.
My anger resides with lawmakers and government officials who could be fixing things and intentionally go the opposite direction. You don't anger me, just frustrate and exasperate at times. Your opinions aren't the thing actively causing harm to the country by way of the government.
If you want to say that frustration and exasperation is all my internal violence and put-down child, so be it.
This is not to say that we shouldn't push for fundamental changes from the outside, because it's a worthy goal. I'm just at a loss as to how we do it. Tear it all down and start from scratch? That isn't happening without revolution, IMHO.
I just don't think it's equivalent.
Conservatives want low taxes for the rich and corporations (which are now people thanks to the partisan, legislating-from-the-bench, conservative SCOTUS.)
They want the loosest business and corporate regulations they can get passed.
They want the highest profits for the few at the cost of the many.
They want to continue subsidizing some of the most profitable industries in the country/world while they gut and defund social safety net programs as much as possible.
Don't get me started on what they've been trying to do to education for decades, and are succeeding more than ever in some states now.
In the uncommon or even rare instance that someone writes a piece of legislation that's helpful to the country and not the few, whose side is typically introducing and trying to get it passed? Whose side are the ones obstructing it...EVERY. SINGLE. TIME?
This is why the notion of equivalency in obstructing progress or change is not something I see as reality.
But I did not try to argue what liberal wants to do what.
I asked you for an example of one. Just one.
I thought you should be able to do that, since you continue to claim there are "some" Democrats that want them all banned outright.
I enjoy mine, and consider myself above and beyond a typical "responsible gun owner" in my paranoia of unsafety with firearms. It includes other people and their guns as well, but it starts with my own. I also hold a CCW. I don't consider myself ignorant or hypocritical on the subject.
I just don't think these firearms should all be so easily available to anyone 18 years of age (besides Felons.) In many or most states, you can walk into a gunshop and walk out that same day with any rifle or shotgun they sell sans Class III firearms.
I think handguns AND rifles of any kind, even bolt actions, should be at least a 10 day waiting period with MORE extensive and deep background checks. It'd also be nice if assholes in government stopped opposing red flag laws.
I didn't bring up all of the calibers they can be chambered in, I gave an example of a deer hunting cartridge because you brought up deer rifles vs AR. I did mention the "half dozen other calibers they can be chambered in".
Just one last comment, for wont of safety for you and others...If you want to go shoot, especially rifles...a range tends to be the safest place to do that unless you have a HUGE piece of land, like miles wide.
Or somewhere with a large enough backdrop to shoot against without fear of richochet, missing the targets and endangering anything beyond them, etc. I'm sure I don't need to tell you the range that bullets can travel.
My anger resides with lawmakers and government officials who could be fixing things and intentionally go the opposite direction. You don't anger me, just frustrate and exasperate at times. Your opinions aren't the thing actively causing harm to the country by way of the government.
If you want to say that frustration and exasperation is all my internal violence and put-down child, so be it.
You don't keep trying to tell me, because it's something I already realize and accept to be true. Did I say otherwise at any point?
Sure I understand, and it sounds great to me. But what kind of fundamental changes are we talking about here, and how do we implement them when as you say...the people in power vote to keep it?
This is not to say that we shouldn't push for fundamental changes from the outside, because it's a worthy goal. I'm just at a loss as to how we do it. Tear it all down and start from scratch? That isn't happening without revolution, IMHO.
I agree the system is fucked, and many or most on either side of the aisle do little to change it in any meaningful way, to lessen the suffering of the majority of people in the country.
I just don't think it's equivalent.
Conservatives want low taxes for the rich and corporations (which are now people thanks to the partisan, legislating-from-the-bench, conservative SCOTUS.)
They want the loosest business and corporate regulations they can get passed.
They want the highest profits for the few at the cost of the many.
They want to continue subsidizing some of the most profitable industries in the country/world while they gut and defund social safety net programs as much as possible.
Don't get me started on what they've been trying to do to education for decades, and are succeeding more than ever in some states now.
In the uncommon or even rare instance that someone writes a piece of legislation that's helpful to the country and not the few, whose side is typically introducing and trying to get it passed? Whose side are the ones obstructing it...EVERY. SINGLE. TIME?
This is why the notion of equivalency in obstructing progress or change is not something I see as reality.
So it's because of how your own ego reacts to any external influences or actions that you suffer? Nothing and nobody else? Is that what you mean?
Well, yeah I was talking about gun violence, because that was the topic of the OP. Then it tracked into mental health and general state of society.
Okay, thanks? I guess.
But I did not try to argue what liberal wants to do what.
I asked you for an example of one. Just one.
I thought you should be able to do that, since you continue to claim there are "some" Democrats that want them all banned outright.
Yeah, I consider it an ugly platform alright. That's why I own one. Hmm, interesting, that. Pretty glaring assumption on your part, I must say.
I enjoy mine, and consider myself above and beyond a typical "responsible gun owner" in my paranoia of unsafety with firearms. It includes other people and their guns as well, but it starts with my own. I also hold a CCW. I don't consider myself ignorant or hypocritical on the subject.
I just don't think these firearms should all be so easily available to anyone 18 years of age (besides Felons.) In many or most states, you can walk into a gunshop and walk out that same day with any rifle or shotgun they sell sans Class III firearms.
I think handguns AND rifles of any kind, even bolt actions, should be at least a 10 day waiting period with MORE extensive and deep background checks. It'd also be nice if assholes in government stopped opposing red flag laws.
I didn't bring up all of the calibers they can be chambered in, I gave an example of a deer hunting cartridge because you brought up deer rifles vs AR. I did mention the "half dozen other calibers they can be chambered in".
Just one last comment, for wont of safety for you and others...If you want to go shoot, especially rifles...a range tends to be the safest place to do that unless you have a HUGE piece of land, like miles wide.
Or somewhere with a large enough backdrop to shoot against without fear of richochet, missing the targets and endangering anything beyond them, etc. I'm sure I don't need to tell you the range that bullets can travel.
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You agreed we can't cure mental illness. I said that the mental illness we all suffer from, self hate, can be cured. I said it was caused by being put down for failing to adopt our guardians and our societies rules for success, to competently compete against others for some alternate sense of self importance to become a winner. This is the source of all our terror, the fear that our feelings of inferiority will be come conscious, that we will feel what we really feel. These are the facts to which you are asleep. These are the facts I know to be true by cracking open that tightly sealed prison. He who tastes knows and he who has not knows nothing. That's the rules. This is the truth that can't be kept from those who want it or given to those who do not.
Humanity has a choice, to awaken or to face extinction. So far you and we are choosing the latter. Don't feel too bad about it. Psychiatrist generally don't know what they feel either. It's the last thing anybody wants to know.
Pohemi
Lifer
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Translation:
'You are asleep. I am not. I've experienced the awakening but you haven't, so you just can't understand anything at all, ever. Until you wake up. You'd wake up if you really wanted to, but you don't, so you'll remain ignorant of the truth unlike me.
You and we (as in humanity, but not me personally) are choosing to destroy ourselves because you all won't wake up. And again, I am smarter than psychiatrists/psychologists. And maybe wiser than Ghandi. You can't see it because you're asleep to the fact that you were put down as a child.'
Are you the savior who sees the truth that will save us all? Or just trying to feel some self-importance, or self-love?
I see lots of ego, and it's not because I see a mirror in you. You made the statements, not me. (to pre-empt your common response.)
I may be reacting to them subjectively (bEcAuSe yOu CaN'T UnDeRsTaNd) but not all of your statements are some great cosmic wisdom (if any of them are.) It isn't a mystery what you're stating.
This is some of that exasperation I mentioned above.
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You’re a poseur who wants to sound important and smart.
He is pompous for a person who claims to live without ego.
Pohemi
Lifer
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I don't know that he necessarily claims to be living without it, I think he acknowledged that he still has some. It was that he reached an ego-free state for a brief period.
Apparently that's when he gained all of this fantastic cosmic knowledge that he's trying to impart on the rest of us.
I do find it amusing when he tells other people that their problem is ego, though. Gets a good chuckle-snort.
Scarpozzi
Lifer
- Jun 13, 2000
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Yeah. They're just like politicians.... they can be successful and total morons at the same time.
I really like the common sense arguments Jon Stewart makes. I like guns and don't want the government to take mine away from me, but I shoot paper targets and skeet. My guns are a risk to my family because they're in the house. I keep trigger locks on ALL OF THEM.
We need better background checks and mandatory safety training. Half of the reason kids get guns is because people aren't locking them up. I'm not going to cover mass shooting logic. That's all over the place.
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