How the PlayStation 4 is better than a PC

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Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
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Just a thought:
Is it possible that some memory manufacturer (that will be first with GDDR6) paid Sony and MS for pushing more RAM into consoles? This way games will require more VRAM. That will lead to a huge spike in VRAM capacity in desktop parts. People will have to upgrade their PCs with new graphics cards. That would boost GPU sales and increase the number of GDDR chips shipped exponentially! And if there will be a monopoly in GDDR6 market I can imagine how this can bring giant profits. OFC that would be illegal, wouldn't it be?
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
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Just a thought:
Is it possible that some memory manufacturer (that will be first with GDDR6) paid Sony and MS for pushing more RAM into consoles? This way games will require more VRAM. That will lead to a huge spike in VRAM capacity in desktop parts. People will have to upgrade their PCs with new graphics cards. That would boost GPU sales and increase the number of GDDR chips shipped exponentially! And if there will be a monopoly in GDDR6 market I can imagine how this can bring giant profits. OFC that would be illegal, wouldn't it be?

Would you like some more intrigue with your conspiracy theory?
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
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8902480217_09270ab236_o.png
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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omfg 600lbs?

wait... lets step back for a sec..

Thats costs more then a entry level gaming system with an i3 and a ati 7900 series.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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console makers should just retire from the business and go straight to PC.

didnt console makers break even on a consoles?
Its the games that they profited from.

whose gonna honestly pay 600 lbs for a console over a game grade PC.
That's like 700+ dollars.
This isnt even economical anymore...

when the console was priced below a 680GTX... i was like ohhh its not bad.
At a 700 dollar price tag... im like WTF are u guys smoking.
The core AMD parts arent priced half the price ur listing your console to be priced at on full retail.

PC stuff got cheaper (ignoring nvidia)... not inflated (again ignoring nvidia)

In for 2 PS4s and 2 XB Ones. I plan to daisy chain them and create a supercomputer.

i did that with 5 iphones4s on 4g.... a steve jobs big daddy type bioshock person came in and confiscated my toslink cable to each of them saying cold fusion was not allowed this earily in the century.
 
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zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
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£599 is probably a placeholder value. I doubt both manufacturer would go full retard expecting a large increase in sales compared to previous gen with such prices
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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£599 is probably a placeholder value. I doubt both manufacturer would go full retard expecting a large increase in sales compared to previous gen with such prices

yes i hope so.

cuz can we all agree £599 is full retarded.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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Can we nominate this thread as the greatest troll threat in AT history? It is mind-bogglingly dumb in every possible respect.
 

galego

Golden Member
Apr 10, 2013
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It will take time and effort for gamedevs to cut corners and squeeze performance out of the PS4, just like with XB360/PS3, so I'm willing to bet that an i5-3470 + 7850 can hold its own against a launch PS4 and the paltry number of PS4 launch titles. Over time as gamedevs climb the learning curve, it may take more PC horsepower to match the PS4, but PC perf/price and perf/watt will improve over time as well. Second, you are intentionally using some of the worst price/perf parts... i7?? 680?? An i5-3470 (partially unlocked multiplier) and 7950 Boost (~5% slower than 7970, clock for clock) can get you pretty close to the i7 + 680 combo and cost a LOT less. Besides, you don't even need to go that high. A i5-3470 + 7850, even without overclocking, should be enough to match a launch PS4 in the paltry number of PS4 games available at launch.

All of this is just up-front costs. Operating costs tilt in favor of PCs: expandability using off the shelf parts, lower-priced games at launch and beyond (as I explained in detail in previous posts--game publishers pay MSFT/Sony to publish games, setting a natural price floor for game titles, whereas there is no analogous fee paid to MSFT for PC games; launch prices also tend to be lower for PC games as well), much better ability to used mods, ability to do more things than consoles can, no online network subscription fee (if applicable--not sure about PSN going forward), etc. You may pay a little more for electricity, but dollar wise, it's about the same as one month of XBL, or one game title's console premium, to put it in perspective. You can also repurpose a PC more easily than a console, e.g., to be a file server with lots of bays for hard drives, and some mobos also support ECC.

Buying a console is like buying a phone on a monthly plan--sure it seems cheaper than buying your own phone, but you pay for it with ongoing operational costs and lack of flexibility. No amount of selective quoting by you will change that.

Again with the Steam obsession? Compare apples to apples: modern PCs with modern consoles. If you insist on looking at Steam numbers then we might as well compare Steam PCs vs PS2s and the original XBox.

If you read my posts, you will discover how I have explained that devs. will optimize for the consoles only at later years near their end of life. Nobody said they will do the first day, because that is absurd.

The PS4 is much more easy to program than the XB360/PS3. Your analogy is not valid.

The PC targeted at many launch titles is an i7 with a GTX-680. That is the PC used to run some of the PS4 demos. The i5 lacks HT and the 7950 lacks performance.

The i7 + GTX-680 has problems to run demos, it cannot run the elemental demo at 30fps 1080p and it cannot run the killzone demo because lacks VRAM.

You did not offer any real argument against the consoles cost a tiny fraction of a performance comparable PC.

I find amazing that you reject Steam statistics with "Compare apples to apples: modern PCs with modern consoles". You are the one who continuously mention the PS3 in your anti-PS4 arguments. LOL


Why are you comparing PCs to Consoles?

Maybe because I am in a thread titled "How the PlayStation 4 is better than a PC"? Just a though.


How dare you suggest that Sony would subject themselves to those filthy Microsoft-crafted Draw calls!? :colbert:

I am pretty sure that you did read the word "improved" in my post. And I am also pretty sure that I explained before how Sony is providing an alternative low-level API more close-to-metal access to eliminate Windows overheads.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
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£599 is probably a placeholder value. I doubt both manufacturer would go full retard expecting a large increase in sales compared to previous gen with such prices

Yeah... I saw another placeholder price that ended up being $500 USD after converting from British Pounds and removing the 20% VAT. If I had to guess, I would say $500 is a pretty reasonable estimate.

I am pretty sure that you did read the word "improved" in my post. And I am also pretty sure that I explained before how Sony is providing an alternative low-level API more close-to-metal access to eliminate Windows overheads.

Yes, and I was mocking it the entire time for its incredible lunacy. You do realize that DirectX 11 is Microsoft's proprietary API right? Possibly, you mean to suggest that Sony is offering an API that is very similar to DirectX 11? After I read your inane remark, I did a bit of Googling, and found articles talking about the PS4 and "DirectX 11 Tessellation". So, I would surmise that they are talking about implementing features that are also found in DirectX 11. Honestly, creating an API that is similar in nature to DirectX (similar command structure) would probably be a smart bet, because developers with PC experience would feel rather comfortable.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
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If you read my posts, you will discover how I have explained that devs. will optimize for the consoles only at later years near their end of life. Nobody said they will do the first day, because that is absurd.

The PS4 is much more easy to program than the XB360/PS3. Your analogy is not valid.

The PC targeted at many launch titles is an i7 with a GTX-680. That is the PC used to run some of the PS4 demos. The i5 lacks HT and the 7950 lacks performance.

The i7 + GTX-680 has problems to run demos, it cannot run the elemental demo at 30fps 1080p and it cannot run the killzone demo because lacks VRAM.

You did not offer any real argument against the consoles cost a tiny fraction of a performance comparable PC.

I find amazing that you reject Steam statistics with "Compare apples to apples: modern PCs with modern consoles". You are the one who continuously mention the PS3 in your anti-PS4 arguments. LOL

Just because you use a rig to run a demo doesn't necessarily mean it's targeted rig. Do you have a cite for that, that gamedevs are targeting an i7/680 rig for PS4 launch titles? Even if they are, it's likely overkill. Remember that a 7950 with Boost is already on par with the original 7970 (5% slower clock for clock), which itself is very close to a GTX 680 when you use up to date drivers. With a very mild overclock, a 7950 can actually BEAT a GTX 680... and comes with free games to boot. As for i7, hyperthreading does NOTHING for most games. Some games are still single-threaded for crying out loud, and programming for max load for many threads isn't trivial and gamedevs are unlikely to fully saturate all PS4 cores with launch titles.. that will take years of learning to achieve if they ever do. So a fast quadcore i5 is all you need. Haswell has ~10% higher IPC than Ivy Bridge, according to rumors, btw, so factor that in, too.

The difference between my using PS3 Slim wattage and your using Steam numbers is that I actually have a good reason for it, whereas you do not. Do you have better numbers for PS4 load estimates? If not, then taking the PS3 Slim wattage is reasonable, esp. given the APU is sort of a known quantity (can extrapolate from existing ones) and GDDR5 wattage is known as well though wattage can vary depending on process and frequency. That is why I mentioned the PS3 at all. You on the other hand are obsessed with apples-to-oranges comparisons of Steam Survey PCs (many of which are old) vs PS4.

It remains to be seen how hard gamedevs can squeeze performance out of the PS4 at launch vs over time. Cell was a mess and the APU in PS4 is probably easier to program for, and yes DirectX eats performance, and yes GDDR5 unified memory is intriguing, but it's a brand new console. I don't know how you expect gamedevs to just jump on board and get THAT much more out of the hardware than a PC would from the same hardware, at launch. A launch that is in the future so by that point a i5-3470 (partially unlocked) and 7950 Boost will be outdated and presumably even cheaper. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on this one.

We can even agree to disagree on factoring TV vs monitor costs on the grounds that for some people, TVs are a sunk cost.

How much of a factor VRAM limitations are remains to be seen in actual games. For multiplatform, producing games for the lowest common denominator has been gamedevs' M.O. for a long time now. Even in a worst case scenario, turning down textures a notch (and gaining fps) may be a workaround until VGA cards get more RAM.

What I completely disagree with is your disingenuously ignoring operating costs even though you brought one up (electricity). Consoles cost more than PCs to operate for gaming. Period. The game publishing licensing fees and possible XBL-style fees (jury is out for PSN price in the PS4 era) and higher launch and post-launch prices for games drown out the small extra price of power for PCs. Then factor in how PCs can be upgraded with off the shelf parts, and the jury is out for PS4 as to whether you need proprietary hardware like proprietary hard drives, or like they tried to make people do with memory sticks for a long time, even though CF/SD are the real standards.

And that's not even factoring in how PCs can do so much more than consoles in terms of programs you can run.

Remember, you brought up electricity as an operating cost. If you didn't want to talk about operating costs, then don't bring up electricity. Now that you opened up that door, don't be sad that all of the other operating costs of consoles more than make up for their slight energy efficiency as of 2013... and future PCs will catch up in terms of perf/watt.

So no, I can't agree with how the PS4 will be a "tiny fraction" of the cost of a performance-comparable PC, not unless it launches for $99 with no monthly fee or something.
 
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galego

Golden Member
Apr 10, 2013
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Yes, and I was mocking it the entire time for its incredible lunacy. You do realize that DirectX 11 is Microsoft's proprietary API right? Possibly, you mean to suggest that Sony is offering an API that is very similar to DirectX 11? After I read your inane remark, I did a bit of Googling, and found articles talking about the PS4 and "DirectX 11 Tessellation". So, I would surmise that they are talking about implementing features that are also found in DirectX 11. Honestly, creating an API that is similar in nature to DirectX (similar command structure) would probably be a smart bet, because developers with PC experience would feel rather comfortable.

LOL No I was not referring to tessellation... I don't know if they got some license from M$ or did reverse engineering or what and, sincerely, I don't care because I don't see any future on DX11 gaming.

Just because you use a rig to run a demo doesn't necessarily mean it's targeted rig. Do you have a cite for that, that gamedevs are targeting an i7/680 rig for PS4 launch titles? Even if they are, it's likely overkill. Remember that a 7950 with Boost is already on par with the original 7970 (5% slower clock for clock), which itself is very close to a GTX 680 when you use up to date drivers. With a very mild overclock, a 7950 can actually BEAT a GTX 680... and comes with free games to boot. As for i7, hyperthreading does NOTHING for most games. Some games are still single-threaded for crying out loud, and programming for max load for many threads isn't trivial and gamedevs are unlikely to fully saturate all PS4 cores with launch titles.. that will take years of learning to achieve if they ever do. So a fast quadcore i5 is all you need. Haswell has ~10% higher IPC than Ivy Bridge, according to rumors, btw, so factor that in, too.

The 680 2GB they used in the comparison cannot run the elemental demo at the target FPS and resolution. Moreover it cannot run the last Killzone demo because lacks 50% of the required memory.

Most games use less than four threads, thus enabling HT in a quad-core i7 makes nothing. But this next gen is targeting at least six threads, and HT will help. All triple-A game developers reject the i5-3570k for future gaming, among other things, because lacks HT.

Haswell provides about a 1-5% increase in gaming performance.

The difference between my using PS3 Slim wattage and your using Steam numbers is that I actually have a good reason for it, whereas you do not. Do you have better numbers for PS4 load estimates? If not, then taking the PS3 Slim wattage is reasonable

Not even close.
 
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TestKing123

Senior member
Sep 9, 2007
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LOL No I was not referring to tessellation... I don't know if they got some license from M$ or did reverse engineering or what and, sincerely, I don't care because I don't see any future on DX11 gaming.



The 680 2GB they used in the comparison cannot run the elemental demo at the target FPS and resolution. Moreover it cannot run the last Killzone demo because lacks 50% of the required memory.

Most games use less than four threads, thus enabling HT in a quad-core i7 makes nothing. But this next gen is targeting at least six threads, and HT will help. All triple-A game developers reject the i5-3570k for future gaming, among other things, because lacks HT.

Haswell provides about a 1-5% increase in gaming performance.



Not even close.

It's funny reading your fanatical posts, its quite obvious you don't have the slightest bit of technical knowledge and ALL of your claims are flat out wrong.

None of the next gen consoles will come close to being as powerful as a high end PC. They're all using low power apus targeted at 720p gaming. Crytek and Epic clearly made statements these next gen consoles cannot compete with high end PCs, the power just isn't there. And funny you completely ignore thief 4 will look better on PC than a PS4 according to the devs.

And by the way, the killzone demo was god damn run on PC with off the shelf PC parts. The only difference was the dev kit running orbis os. Your ignorant statements make you look....well, ignorant.

You sound like a 13 year old intent on defending your favorite brand despite facts and logic proving all your notions wrong.
 

2is

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2012
4,281
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Do you [galego] have a macro programmed so the same (erroneous) thing gets posted over and over again with just a couple key strokes?
 
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galego

Golden Member
Apr 10, 2013
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It's funny reading your fanatical posts, its quite obvious you don't have the slightest bit of technical knowledge and ALL of your claims are flat out wrong.

None of the next gen consoles will come close to being as powerful as a high end PC. They're all using low power apus targeted at 720p gaming. Crytek and Epic clearly made statements these next gen consoles cannot compete with high end PCs, the power just isn't there. And funny you completely ignore thief 4 will look better on PC than a PS4 according to the devs.

And by the way, the killzone demo was god damn run on PC with off the shelf PC parts. The only difference was the dev kit running orbis os. Your ignorant statements make you look....well, ignorant.

You sound like a 13 year old intent on defending your favorite brand despite facts and logic proving all your notions wrong.

Therefore you decided to submit stuff completely unrelated to the post that you quoted and no happy enough you decided also to post plain wrong stuff. LOL

APU targeted at 720p? Wrong. All demos runs at 1080p and

http://www.videogamer.com/news/sony_actively_pushing_for_60fps_1080p_with_ps4.html

Crytek made statements, yes, but they are in minority among developers and Crytek statements avoided several crucial tech. issues of next gen consoles.

Epic has equated the PS4 to the best gaming PC and a nearly perfect gaming PC. Epic criticized recent EA declarations stating that next consoles will be "a generation ahead of high-end gaming PCs".

Initially I agreed with Epic (see my posts here), because the PS4 is not like an high-end PC of 2018, but M$ has given details of its cloud extension of the Xbox1. They plan to start the cloud service with 40x the performance of the Xbox 360. They also plan to increase this initial performance with future extensions of the cloud gaming system. From this point of view, EA claim does not look so nonsensical like it looked days ago.

I didn't ignore what thief 4 dev. said. They are not going to optimize for the PS4. That is their choice, but evidently they and their game (singular) are not the norm. Precisely all the first-party games (plural) will do the inverse: they are so optimized for the console that couldn't not run on a PC. Again read Timothy Lottes (Nvidia) about the PS4 being "years ahead of PCs".

The killzone demo was developed in a dev. kit, but this is not an ordinary PC with a different OS as you wrongly claim. The kit uses some parts of a PC but not all. E.g. the graphic card is a heavily modified Radeon graphics card:

The original AMD GCN architecture allowed for one source of graphics commands, and two sources of compute commands. For PS4, we’ve worked with AMD to increase the limit to 64 sources of compute commands — the idea is if you have some asynchronous compute you want to perform, you put commands in one of these 64 queues, and then there are multiple levels of arbitration in the hardware to determine what runs, how it runs, and when it runs, alongside the graphics that’s in the system.
You cannot buy one of those in a PC store...
 
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blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
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They should ban you for trolling.

1. You have no better PS4 wattage numbers but insist on criticizing others' wattage reasonable guesstimates. We know the basics of the APU and GDDR5 wattage, and adding in wattage for things like optical drive, HDD, and peripherals, plus efficiency loss to get to 100W draw at the wall. Given the size and construction, it seems similar to the PS3. Even if it were ZERO watts that's 250W instead of 150W delta, still barely moves the needle in terms of operating costs. I challenged you to give better numbers. You failed. You failed hard. And you dare say "not even close" as if you had better numbers.

2. You have no cite to your mythical i7/680 "target" rig. Nothing saying that it is an official bench rig or anything. I already addressed the VRAM issue, perhaps you could actually quote that part instead of selectively quoting as usual. 680 has 2GB VRAM in regular editions btw, 79xx has 3GB regular. Given difficulties of multithreading with maxed out loads on each core, HT is probably not going to be that useful at launch (and probably for much longer), and 79xx is better bang for the buck, so you are just choosing the most expensive parts to artificially increase PC rig costs instead of going with nearly-as-fast parts that cost a lot less. Furthermore you ignore how the Unreal demo was tweaked for console, eliminating some effects. Gee I wonder why. Could it be your almighty PS4 supercomputer is actually not that fast?

3. You willfully ignore how difficult it is to multithread a game, particularly at launch when they are still fumbling around with new hardware.

4. Haswell hasn't come out yet, let alone been benched by reputable review sites for games, yet you pull 1-5% out of your nether regions and state it as fact. No mention of GPU or CPU bottlenecks or resolution.

If you're going to pull numbers out of your nether regions, allow me to do the same: Haswell will be 19940% faster than Ivy, and HD8970 will be 2389589% faster than HD7970 and draw 3 watts at load, 0.1 watts idle. They will collectively power gaming rigs approximately 6988% faster than PS4, and sell for $1.04 plus tax.

Gamedevs say a lot of things. They have to put on a good game face because if they said the new consoles suck, they will indirectly hurt their own sales. Better to drum up excitement by exaggerating. Why don't you ask Valve what its opinion of the PS4 is?

LOL No I was not referring to tessellation... I don't know if they got some license from M$ or did reverse engineering or what and, sincerely, I don't care because I don't see any future on DX11 gaming.



The 680 2GB they used in the comparison cannot run the elemental demo at the target FPS and resolution. Moreover it cannot run the last Killzone demo because lacks 50% of the required memory.

Most games use less than four threads, thus enabling HT in a quad-core i7 makes nothing. But this next gen is targeting at least six threads, and HT will help. All triple-A game developers reject the i5-3570k for future gaming, among other things, because lacks HT.

Haswell provides about a 1-5% increase in gaming performance.

Not even close.
 
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