Did Atari not learn anything from EA and 3 activation limits?!

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: NoWhereM

What is REALLY AMAZING is that how only PART of the TRUTH Is posted
- read the REST OF IT

humm..

* A time based incremental activation count can be used to re-credit the SN without requiring the end-user to bother about his activation count.

Obviously this isn't relevant since Atari chose not to implement this.

* In many cases, when the commercial lifetime of the product is ended, a patch that is not protected is released.

This topic has already been discussed.


Nice try, but neither of those points have any need to be in my post since they have nothing to do with the fact that a revoke tool won't be released. That is the only reason I posted what I did in the first place, since there has been talk about a revoke tool in this thread and now there is proof that we'll never see one.

Plus the fact that I posted a link to the site with directions on how to see this info for yourself if you were interested into looking into it deeper. Why would I do that if I wanted to somehow "hide" info like you are suggesting?

 

[apoppin]

only you can answer that last one

we see transparency with atari and their rep confirming that you can call their hotline now - they will increase the activation number later on - and finally release a patch that does not have it at all

We have learned from what you omitted, that you can also remove all traces of Tages from your PC when you finally are done with the game

i see you gloss over the above points and only posted the most negative part of that Tages quote to support your premise

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM
It's simply amazing. The longer this thread is drawn out by installation limit apoligists the more we know and the worse SecuRom and T@ges look. So now the TAGES website has confirmed that SecuRom does install a rootkit when their DRM contains an installation limit.

Yes, we can definitely thank them since this thread has been active for about a week and a half now, and with their help this important topic has been viewed by hundreds of people.

Plus, like you said, the deeper we look into it the more we find out about what these systems are really all about.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: apoppin
only you can answer that last one

Answer what? Why I posted a link that anyone can click on if they so desire? lol

Originally posted by: apoppin
and finally release a patch that does not have it at all

And this was already discussed as I pointed out. Read back through the thread if you're interested, but to save you time.. answer this.. What other game has Atari released an unprotected executable for?

Originally posted by: apoppin
We have learned from what you omitted, that you can also remove all traces of Tages from your PC when you finally are done with the game

It's great that you pointed that out and is certainly valuable info, but again, that was not why I posted what I did.

Originally posted by: apoppin
i see you gloss over the above points and only posted the most negative part of that Tages quote to support your premise

Yeah, since the point of my post was about one issue.. Revokation. What don't you understand about that?

If I posted info about how Honda makes the accord and specific features of the accord, would I also be obligated to post information about the civic? It's the same manufacturer, yes, but not relevant to talking specifically about information regarding an accord..

Thus, if i'm posting specifically about TAGES Revokation, and the fact there isn't that option, why would you think I would be obligated to post additional information irrelevant to that topic? If you want to post additional info about TAGES, then feel free to do so. But trying to claim that I'm somehow trying to deceive people by not re-posting the entire TAGES FAQ page is absurd.

 

[you2]

You should see the recent policy for the new game (nwn2 scenario) westgate. 3 activations only, no revocation, no method (including callling support) to increase activations if there are issues.

The last couple of games I've purchased atari support has been awful. Patches are publically available from the developers MONTHS (6+) before (if) atari make them available. Support questions on forum and via email go unanswered.

Basically this company is begging to go out of business. Given the new policy on westgate I personally do not intend to purchase another atari labeled product (including wesgate) until their policies change.

 

[BladeVenom]

So how's it selling? With all this great DRM they have, they must be selling millions, even tens of millions since they have at least temporarily stopped piracy of their game.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: you2
You should see the recent policy for the new game (nwn2 scenario) westgate. 3 activations only, no revocation, no method (including callling support) to increase activations if there are issues.

Edit: It appears you can call atari and get more activations, so slight correction to your post.

- With 3 activations you can install MoW on 3 different PCs.
- If you reinstall MoW on the same PC with unchanged hardware (see below for details), you can do this an unlimited number of times. You can do this on 3 different PCs.
- If you uninstall MoW and reinstall it, the westgate.key file (generated from the authentication) in your NWN2 folder won't have been removed, so your new MoW installation will not count as an activation.
- If you uninstall MoW and NWN2 (on the same PC), and then reinstall them, you can either have backed up your westgate.key file (to copy back into your NWN2 folder so MoW doesn't have to authenticate again) or not backed up the key at all and let MoW authenticate again (in this case, it will detect that this machine has activated before). In either case, this will not count as an activation.
- If you change your RAM or video card (and likely sound card too) and play or install MoW, this will not count as an activation. I don?t have 100% confirmation from Atari on this next part, but I would expect that changing your CPU, motherboard, or hard drive where MoW is installed would count as an activation.
- If you reformat your hard drive and reinstall your OS, NWN2, and MoW, but without changing your hardware configuration, then this ?normally? shouldn?t be another activation. I say ?normally? because that is the wording that Atari told me.
- Apparently, for some retail games, a user can revoke their usage of it in order to resell it, so that the slate is wiped clean for a new user to install and activate (I think this is termed an ?installation reset?). Atari has said that can?t be the case for a digitally-distributed title like MoW.
- If you surpass 3 activations, then you can contact Atari tech support in order to get another activation.

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/...topic=675604&forum=122


It sounds like the same crap as Riddick besides having a .key file that allows you to not have to activate online again as long as you don't change hardware apparently..

My question is who is ever going to remember to backup their .key file? That's just a pointless addition since most people will uninstall the game then install it later (maybe months or years) and probably have a new system (or at least new components) by that point. Completely useless.

 

[NoWhereM]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
So how's it selling? With all this great DRM they have, they must be selling millions, even tens of millions since they have at least temporarily stopped piracy of their game.

No idea, but I buy most of my new games from Amazon.com and looking there it doesn't appear to be doing to well.

On Amazon.com's Hot New Releases in Video Games PC game list Dark Athena is currently #22. One seller even has it brand new for $30.83 shipped. I guess #22 isn't that bad considering the tough competition it's going up against amoung other new PC game releases. Reel Deal Slots: The Adventure just came out and is sitting at #7. It's only $19.99 new purchased directly from Amazon.com. Who would really want to spend an extra $10 for Dark Athena when they can play Reel Deal Slots instead?

It is odd, though, looking at the list for this hour Demigod is sitting at #4. I thought games with no copy protection didn't sell as well as those with copy protection because everyone just pirated them instead of buying them.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Consoles are the MOST restrictive form of DRM on earth
- that is a ridiculous statement you just made

How so? I can buy a used 360 game (any game), throw it in the drive and be playing in seconds. I can get a new console, throw that same disk in, and be playing in seconds. I can sell the same game to somebody else, who can then throw it in their 360 and be playing in seconds.

How is it "the MOST restrictive form of DRM on earth". I genuinely want your opinion on this.

 

[Jules]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: apoppin

Consoles are the MOST restrictive form of DRM on earth
- that is a ridiculous statement you just made

How so? I can buy a used 360 game (any game), throw it in the drive and be playing in seconds. I can get a new console, throw that same disk in, and be playing in seconds. I can sell the same game to somebody else, who can then throw it in their 360 and be playing in seconds.

How is it "the MOST restrictive form of DRM on earth". I genuinely want your opinion on this.

lmao

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: apoppin
we see transparency with atari and their rep confirming that you can call their hotline now - they will increase the activation number later on - and finally release a patch that does not have it at all

Do you have any kind of estimate with regards to the cost of each call, or is the hotline a free service? Surely they can cover the cost of a few calls with all the profits they are making as a result of reduced piracy?

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: NoWhereM

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Just read this on the TAGES website. Looks like everyone waiting on a revoke tool are out of luck.

It's simply amazing. The longer this thread is drawn out by installation limit apoligists the more we know and the worse SecuRom and T@ges look. So now the TAGES website has confirmed that SecuRom does install a rootkit when their DRM contains an installation limit.

The following points may also be taken into consideration and illustrate the reasons that render revokation obsolete and explain why it is not needed:

* 10 to 20% of end-users activate their software more than once, and for the very few who reach the limit, the publisher's hotline can very easily increment the activation count.
* A time based incremental activation count can be used to re-credit the SN without requiring the end-user to bother about his activation count.
* In many cases, when the commercial lifetime of the product is ended, a patch that is not protected is released.


Completely removing T@GES from your system

This process is very easy to perform:

* Activation

All information were stored at the application data repository, as defined by Microsoft and compatible with the "Game for Windows" requirements: the CSIDL_COMMON_APPDATA\Tages directory.

CSIDL_COMMON_APPDATA is a generic name and stand for:
o Prior Vista: XX:\All Users\Application Data
o Vista and upper: XX:\ProgramData

Where XX is the drive letter where Windows is installed (on most PCs, the letter is 'C')

The CSIDL_COMMON_APPDATA directory may be hidden by default. Once you have located the CSIDL_COMMON_APPDATA\Tages directory, removing it completely removes ALL T@GES activations from your system.
* Drivers:

Please download our installer/un-installer at Drivers and run it.

if you would like to ascertain that everything IS removed, our two "level 3" drivers - atksgt.sys and lirsgt.sys- are located in the system32\DRIVERS directory. After un-installation, all registry keys that were created during the installation using the standart Windows' APIs will be removed, as well as the two files (atksgt.sys and lirsgt.sys).

What is REALLY AMAZING is that how only PART of the TRUTH Is posted
- read the REST OF IT

Awesome info, with the relevant info once again highlighted by someone other than the OP. Makes you wonder if it was purposefully omitted or just another example of negative pub and propaganda ultimately backfiring yet again.

Sounds like Tages already has built-in DRM release thresholds that are virtually identical to what Atari has stated publicly, they just need to be enabled by the publisher. End-user activation tracking, time based incremental activation re-credit, and unprotected exe patch all mirror Atari's updated statement.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: chizow
* 10 to 20% of end-users activate their software more than once, and for the very few who reach the limit, the publisher's hotline can very easily increment the activation count.
* A time based incremental activation count can be used to re-credit the SN without requiring the end-user to bother about his activation count.
* In many cases, when the commercial lifetime of the product is ended, a patch that is not protected is released.[/b]

I feel that you made a number of mistakes when bolding the important parts of the text, I have now rectified your errors, you can just paste it in.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: apoppin

Consoles are the MOST restrictive form of DRM on earth
- that is a ridiculous statement you just made

How so? I can buy a used 360 game (any game), throw it in the drive and be playing in seconds. I can get a new console, throw that same disk in, and be playing in seconds. I can sell the same game to somebody else, who can then throw it in their 360 and be playing in seconds.

How is it "the MOST restrictive form of DRM on earth". I genuinely want your opinion on this.

Try pirating a console game
:roll:

it IS doable .. however, it is not a big business like pirating PC games - even though there is a bigger base

PC gaming is easy to crack by comparison and you have to mod your console to do it - which means you can get banned by playing it online and then rendering it worthless

Steam would be the most restrictive form of PC DRM

and you guys are bitching and spreading FUD about AoDA which has the SAME DRM as FarCry and many other AAA titles
- we know Atari's clearly stated intentions .. in contrast to some of the posts here that deliberately spread FUD

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
So how's it selling? With all this great DRM they have, they must be selling millions, even tens of millions since they have at least temporarily stopped piracy of their game.

No idea, but I buy most of my new games from Amazon.com and looking there it doesn't appear to be doing to well.

On Amazon.com's Hot New Releases in Video Games PC game list Dark Athena is currently #22. One seller even has it brand new for $30.83 shipped. I guess #22 isn't that bad considering the tough competition it's going up against amoung other new PC game releases. Reel Deal Slots: The Adventure just came out and is sitting at #7. It's only $19.99 new purchased directly from Amazon.com. Who would really want to spend an extra $10 for Dark Athena when they can play Reel Deal Slots instead?

It is odd, though, looking at the list for this hour Demigod is sitting at #4. I thought games with no copy protection didn't sell as well as those with copy protection because everyone just pirated them instead of buying them.

Hahaha, it seems you're resigned to continuously comment ignorantly on the topic, but Demigod as an example?

• Demigod hit by massive piracy; review scores take beating
  
  "The system works pretty well if you have a few thousand people online at once. The system works? less well if there are tens of thousands of people online at once," Wardell wrote on his blog, describing the launch of the game. Stardock had 120,000 connections to deal with, a number well outside its projections for online play. The system melted down, causing many customers to have issues connecting to online games.
  
  The number of those connections that were legitimate? It's estimated to be around 18,000.[/quote]

How naive do Brad Wardell's comments on piracy seem now? Stardock is certainly learning the hard way that their anti-DRM stance wasn't "scoring points" and acting as some anti-Pirate OFF!, they just hadn't yet made a game worth pirating. I guess we'll see if they continue on with their naive anti-DRM stance for future titles.

In the meantime, Demigod serves as another good example of how piracy not only has a serious negative impact on the publisher/developer's sales, but also adversely effecting the gameplay experience of paying customers.

Instead of putting even simple copy protections on their title, Wardell and his staff ended up spending the better part of their weekend and almost 3 days in a row supporting pirates by cleaning up the mess they caused. The scariest thing is it doesn't even seem as if they have a clue which clients are pirates, so they just "shepherd" them off until patched.

As for Riddick's sales, #22 isn't bad considering it wasn't even in the Top 50 when I bought it a bit over a week ago, but at least they won't have to worry about how many sales they're losing due to piracy.

 

[Red Irish]

And if increased piracy rates are not preventing good sales, what can we conclude?

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: apoppin

Consoles are the MOST restrictive form of DRM on earth
- that is a ridiculous statement you just made

How so? I can buy a used 360 game (any game), throw it in the drive and be playing in seconds. I can get a new console, throw that same disk in, and be playing in seconds. I can sell the same game to somebody else, who can then throw it in their 360 and be playing in seconds.

How is it "the MOST restrictive form of DRM on earth". I genuinely want your opinion on this.

I don't know if restrictive is the correct word for it, console DRM is the most effective in that it restricts use to a single-user/machine per license, deters physical copying, and prevents playback of pirated software. The only reason more restrictive or invasive forms of DRM are necessary on the PC is because the above protections are ineffective, or easily bypassed.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
And if increased piracy rates are not preventing good sales, what can we conclude?

We can conclude that the pirates are loving Demigod and hating Assault on Dark athena
- and they are spreading their hate far and wide for DRM which frustrates them

screw the pirates .. who likes to deal with thieves
:thumbsdown:

immoral elitist bastards who are screwing PC gaming
- the devs are protecting themselves!!

I don't know if restrictive is the correct word for it, console DRM is the most effective in that it restricts use to a single-user/machine per license, deters physical copying, and prevents playback of pirated software. The only reason more restrictive or invasive forms of DRM are necessary on the PC is because the above protections are ineffective, or easily bypassed.

OK, MOST *effective*
- yet it is restrictive and there is very little way to reliably guarantee pirating console games effectively - and of course, you are "restricted" to one platform

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
I feel that you made a number of mistakes when bolding the important parts of the text, I have now rectified your errors, you can just paste it in.

I didn't bold anything actually, unlike some people I actually accurately quote, represent and interpret the source as it reads. Amazing irony really, given you claim to be a translator by trade.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Red Irish
I feel that you made a number of mistakes when bolding the important parts of the text, I have now rectified your errors, you can just paste it in.

I didn't bold anything actually, unlike some people I actually accurately quote, represent and interpret the source as it reads. Amazing irony really, given you claim to be a translator by trade.

Soy traductor, chizow, que no te quepa duda.

In any event, the important text is now bolded correctly:

*10 to 20% of end-users activate their software more than once, and for the very few who reach the limit, the publisher's hotline can very easily increment the activation count.
* A time based incremental activation count can be used to re-credit the SN without requiring the end-user to bother about his activation count.
* In many cases, when the commercial lifetime of the product is ended, a patch that is not protected is released.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Try pirating a console game
:roll:

it IS doable .. however, it is not a big business like pirating PC games - even though there is a bigger base

PC gaming is easy to crack by comparison and you have to mod your console to do it - which means you can get banned by playing it online and then rendering it worthless

Steam would be the most restrictive form of PC DRM

and you guys are bitching and spreading FUD about AoDA which has the SAME DRM as FarCry and many other AAA titles
- we know Atari's clearly stated intentions .. in contrast to some of the posts here that deliberately spread FUD

Tell the modchip guys they don't have a "big business".

Yes, console pirating is a little harder than PC, and it costs more. But, I'd argue that console drm is about perfect - it works well and it doesn't inconvenience the end user.

Isn't that the whole argument against drm?

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: apoppin

Try pirating a console game
:roll:

it IS doable .. however, it is not a big business like pirating PC games - even though there is a bigger base

PC gaming is easy to crack by comparison and you have to mod your console to do it - which means you can get banned by playing it online and then rendering it worthless

Steam would be the most restrictive form of PC DRM

and you guys are bitching and spreading FUD about AoDA which has the SAME DRM as FarCry and many other AAA titles
- we know Atari's clearly stated intentions .. in contrast to some of the posts here that deliberately spread FUD

Tell the modchip guys they don't have a "big business".

Yes, console pirating is a little harder than PC, and it costs more. But, I'd argue that console drm is about perfect - it works well and it doesn't inconvenience the end user.

Isn't that the whole argument against drm?

:thumbsup:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: apoppin

Try pirating a console game
:roll:

it IS doable .. however, it is not a big business like pirating PC games - even though there is a bigger base

PC gaming is easy to crack by comparison and you have to mod your console to do it - which means you can get banned by playing it online and then rendering it worthless

Steam would be the most restrictive form of PC DRM

and you guys are bitching and spreading FUD about AoDA which has the SAME DRM as FarCry and many other AAA titles
- we know Atari's clearly stated intentions .. in contrast to some of the posts here that deliberately spread FUD

Tell the modchip guys they don't have a "big business".

Yes, console pirating is a little harder than PC, and it costs more. But, I'd argue that console drm is about perfect - it works well and it doesn't inconvenience the end user.

Isn't that the whole argument against drm?

it is not big - compared with PirateBay; just one site that got so big it got bought out and is now legit
. .. Consoles ARE DRM .. a simplified PC .. You *cannot* move outside the restricted nature of the platform

PC DRM is a lot more complicated and it does inconvenience SOME users .. and it clearly pisses the hell outta pirates when it is effective - like with AAoD

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Soy traductor, chizow, que no te quepa duda.

In any event, the important text is now bolded correctly:

*10 to 20% of end-users activate their software more than once, and for the very few who reach the limit, the publisher's hotline can very easily increment the activation count.
* A time based incremental activation count can be used to re-credit the SN without requiring the end-user to bother about his activation count.
* In many cases, when the commercial lifetime of the product is ended, a patch that is not protected is released.

Whatever helps you understand what was already clearly stated I suppose. Maybe we can get you some highlighters, crayons if it helps? I don't think anyone else had a problem understanding what you highlighted though, as I stated originally:

• Sounds like Tages already has built-in DRM release thresholds that are virtually identical to what Atari has stated publicly, they just need to be enabled by the publisher. End-user activation tracking, time based incremental activation re-credit, and unprotected exe patch all mirror Atari's updated statement

So again, we can believe a statement from the publisher, Atari, along with direct confirmation from the DRM-provider, Tages, that such features are technically possible with functionality built into the DRM....or we can believe the misinterpreted misinformation from a virtual nobody, (you). And I did bold that, for emphasis.

 

[coloumb]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
So how's it selling? With all this great DRM they have, they must be selling millions, even tens of millions since they have at least temporarily stopped piracy of their game.

No idea, but I buy most of my new games from Amazon.com and looking there it doesn't appear to be doing to well.

On Amazon.com's Hot New Releases in Video Games PC game list Dark Athena is currently #22. One seller even has it brand new for $30.83 shipped. I guess #22 isn't that bad considering the tough competition it's going up against amoung other new PC game releases. Reel Deal Slots: The Adventure just came out and is sitting at #7. It's only $19.99 new purchased directly from Amazon.com. Who would really want to spend an extra $10 for Dark Athena when they can play Reel Deal Slots instead?

It is odd, though, looking at the list for this hour Demigod is sitting at #4. I thought games with no copy protection didn't sell as well as those with copy protection because everyone just pirated them instead of buying them.

I know of quite a few people [gamers] who would rather play Reel Deal Slots than dark athena

Look at today's top sellers in game downloads - I for one wouldn't buy any of those, but the same "gamers" who would buy Reel Deal Slots would definitely buy those games.