Did Atari not learn anything from EA and 3 activation limits?!

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: apoppin

- Steam is a DRM that inconveniences ME and i do not support them at all
. . . yet i do not go all over the forums and slander them and their games, nor do i spread FUD about them because i am inconvenienced

Slander is one thing, but why wouldn't you express your concerns and lay out what it would take to earn your business to Valve/Steam? Good companies listen to their past or potential customers and rework their products to make them more appealing typically, but you have to let them know what you'd like before they can even begin to redesign that product.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

There's a reason the music industry is moving away from DRM. It is more of a hindrance than a help.

These are the same people who sued dead grandmas for downloading music.

Think about that for a minute.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: apoppin
There is no "ching-ching" available to you
- you are incapable of it

ALL of the bigger PC Devs/publishers have 1) moved to consoles or 2) included DRM in their latest popular releases - including the move to Steam

that is the disease of piracy - it causes DRM as a reaction to theft of IP

The disease of piracy also causes legitimate customers to deal with DRM, whereas the pirates do not. Again, this thread is about how the DRM employed in Dark Athena is effecting legitimate customers, not pirates. Regardless, I couldn't care less about how the DRM is effecting pirates.

:thumbsup:

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM

Originally posted by: chizow
Every other activation-based SecuROM that received unsubstantiated criticism, like Spore, Crysis Warhead, Mass Effect, etc. did return activations on uninstall, yet you never bothered to clarify those lies and misinformation. I wonder why?

Link to EA Revoke Tools for Spore, Crysis Warhead, and Mass Effect

As you can see all of the games you claimed returned activations on uninstall actually didn't. That's why EA had to release revoke tools for all of them.

Happy?

Update..

So here's official confirmation from RA3's Exec Producer that SecuROM does not refund an activation upon uninstall. The moderator (who quoted the info) also goes on to say this happened with Spore as well.

Quick update. As many conversations as I?ve had about this, it turns out I got an important detail wrong so I need to clarify something important.

An uninstall does not return the entitlement to the user. I?ll be updating my original post to reflect this.

http://www.the-prism.com/index.php?topic=876.0


Here's a post where a guy claims that Crytek stated that they would release a patch for Crysis Warhead that would refund activations upon uninstall, but they had yet to do it. So the original version did not include this capability. The post is from 10/08, but I wasn't able to find any patches or updates that actually included the refund feature.

http://www.incrysis.com/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=408969

You can view the 1.1 patch notes here: http://www.fileplanet.com/1921...sis-Warhead-Patch-v1.1 (Click "Show More Detail") They mention nothing about adding a refund upon uninstall feature.

So unless someone can confirm otherwise, it looks like our pal chizow has been spreading misinformation about this specific topic in his pro-DRM campaign.. which kinda goes against everything he preaches in these threads, but then again, it's not like this hasn't happened many times before.. lol

 

[coloumb]

/me thinks we need 1 thread to discuss this DRM crap. It seems every new blockbuster game that's released ends up in a DRM argument.

 

[NoWhereM]

The problem with 1 thread on DRM is that there are so many different forms of DRM for computer games now. Some of us might hate one, apoppin and Steam, while others of us don't. I've actually purchased games on Steam that I already own when they've gone on sale just so I'll have them in my Steam account.

The only form of DRM I hate is installation limits. I really believe installation limits could kill the PC game market, the same market that has survived 30+ years of software piracy.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM
The only form of DRM I hate is installation limits.

QFT. That and Starforce I didn't like (it seriously sounded like the disc was being scraped against the ground every time it did its thing...Chaos Theory (australian version) I think was the first and last game I bought with Starforce).

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: apoppin
you thought

:roll:

All you are doing is ripping on how "inconvenient" DRM is .. without giving a crap for the owners of the IP that are being ripped off - as Demi God is being destroyed because they did not implement DRM and their MP is ruined - it is getting bad reviews because of the selfish bastards who rip them off

Now, now, all this swearing.

"Demigod is being destroyed"? Please elaborate: haven't we established that it's selling better than Dark Athena (on Amazon at least)?

Do you feel that the companies employing DRM have shown the same consideration for their customers that you now request of me, or do they also qualify as "selfish bastards".

On second thoughts, maybe you should wait for chizow.

I'm going to have to agree and disagree with both of you. Here's how I see it. Demigod did better in sales due to a larger market for the game and lack of DRM. Dark Athena's market is smaller and the DRM is a deterrent to at least a few potential customers. I think both of these facts partially account for the sales numbers we're seeing.

Demigod is getting bad MP reviews due to rampant piracy of the IP. There's no denying this fact, regardless of whether or not better game coding could have prevented it. Now destroyed is a harsh word to be sure, as the game is still selling quite well in spite of the effects of piracy. Also, the pirates are inconvenienced due to not getting updates and being unable to play Online, and the legitimate customers are enjoying the full game's experience.

I think Demigod is a bad comparison to Dark Athena though, because much of the game's focus is on multiplayer. As WoW, BF2, Call of Duty 4, Company of Heroes, etc. have shown, it's that multiplayer focused games have a sort of implied DRM because you have to have a legal key to play the majority of the game. Dark Athena is primarily a single player experience, so if the game is cracked, the pirates get nearly the full value of the game without paying for it. If Demigod had DRM and was cracked, but didn't have MP due to no legal key, the game is still significantly lacking compared to the legally purchased product.

I can accept these criticisms, I think you're right.

 

[Red Irish]

With regards to a single thread, I have written a letter to EA, Valve, Ubisoft and Atari: see thread entitled "DRM Petition".

 

[you2]

My general view on atari is very negative. I used to be a big fan of them but after a few years of being poorly managed and releasing mostly crap they decided to blame piracy on all their ills. I'm sure piracy contributes but this company has a lot of other problems. Personally I just assume have atari go out of business.

The only company I felt sorry for so far is iron lore where I thought they did a very very good first product and still went under. I'm not sure what exactly happened with them (piracy? lack of interest in the type of game they produced? management issues?) but hopefully that team will get back together.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: you2
My general view on atari is very negative. I used to be a big fan of them but after a few years of being poorly managed and releasing mostly crap they decided to blame piracy on all their ills. I'm sure piracy contributes but this company has a lot of other problems. Personally I just assume have atari go out of business.

The only company I felt sorry for so far is iron lore where I thought they did a very very good first product and still went under. I'm not sure what exactly happened with them (piracy? lack of interest in the type of game they produced? management issues?) but hopefully that team will get back together.

I too wish Iron Lore stayed around. I still play Titan Quest Immortal Throne from time to time.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM
Okay, I'll go back and correct some more lies if that will make you happy.

Originally posted by: chizow
Every other activation-based SecuROM that received unsubstantiated criticism, like Spore, Crysis Warhead, Mass Effect, etc. did return activations on uninstall, yet you never bothered to clarify those lies and misinformation. I wonder why?

Link to EA Revoke Tools for Spore, Crysis Warhead, and Mass Effect

As you can see all of the games you claimed returned activations on uninstall actually didn't. That's why EA had to release revoke tools for all of them.

Happy?

Uh, no, its obvious you don't know how the activation limits for those games worked, nor do you have the games to test. The revoke tools are only required if you FUBAR your OS installation before uninstalling the game. If you uninstall the game, you get those installs back:

Mass Effect Forums

Posted: Friday, 13 June 2008 09:27PM

here's your confirmation.. Installed MEPC on 3 computers tried a 4th didn't go. I uninstalled ME from 1 one of 3 pcs it was installed, then tried the 4th computer again and it installed. Ran the game on all computers to test as well.

There's your answer of regaining an activation.

There's plenty of further confirmation throughout ME's forums, something I've personally verified through normal usage without ever having to touch or use any revoke tool. Since I've owned Mass Effect, I've installed it on the following hardware and OS:

• MSI 650i/Q6600/8800GTX - Vista 64 (1st install)
  Asus P45/Q6600/GTX 280 - Vista 64 (new install)
  Dell E1505 Laptop - Windows 7 (new install)
  Asus X58/i7/GTX 280 - Vista 64 (new install)

I've also made at least 2 video changes, including one a few days ago that did not trigger a new install. So again, if uninstalls did not return installations, it would be impossible for that 4th install I did just a few weeks ago as I've clearly exceeded any potential 3 machine limit.

Same goes for the other games like Spore and Warhead, of course its near impossible to find the relevant facts and truth about the uninstalls, due largely to all the FUD and misinformation generated and perpetuated by people like you, but here's another clear example I've already linked:

Alone In the Dark - SecuROM and Unlock FAQ

REVOCATION GUIDELINE :

Revoking the activation is important to reset the full activation rights and allow you to install the game on another computer or sell it. The revocation of the serial is done automatically during the uninstallation process. However, if you decided not to revoke your license when the option is displayed, you can still do it later by re-installing and de-installing your game or you can download are run a revocation tool from this site.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
Uh, no, its obvious you don't know how the activation limits for those games worked, nor do you have the games to test. The revoke tools are only required if you FUBAR your OS installation before uninstalling the game. If you uninstall the game, you get those installs back:

Mass Effect Forums

There's your answer of regaining an activation.

There's plenty of further confirmation throughout ME's forums, something I've personally verified through normal usage without ever having to touch or use any revoke tool. Since I've owned Mass Effect, I've installed it on the following hardware and OS:

I own Mass Effect and uninstalled it months ago after not being able to play it due to constant crashes. Well guess what.. I downloaded the EA revoke tool last night and what did I find.. It has 2 activations left..

But don't take my word for it..

I think i'll believe official confirmation from RA3's Exec Producer, dated 10/19/08, rather than your "confirmation" from some random forum post from June 08.

Originally posted by: mindcycle
..here's official confirmation from RA3's Exec Producer that SecuROM does not refund an activation upon uninstall. The moderator (who quoted the info) also goes on to say this happened with Spore as well.

Quick update. As many conversations as I?ve had about this, it turns out I got an important detail wrong so I need to clarify something important.

An uninstall does not return the entitlement to the user. I?ll be updating my original post to reflect this.

It isn't happening with just RA3, it's also happened with Spore before

http://www.the-prism.com/index.php?topic=876.0

Or in your own words..

Originally posted by: chizow
So again, we can believe a statement from the publisher, ..., along with direct confirmation ... or we can believe the misinterpreted misinformation from a virtual nobody

Originally posted by: chizow
Same goes for the other games like Spore and Warhead, of course its near impossible to find the relevant facts and truth about the uninstalls, due largely to all the FUD and misinformation generated and perpetuated by people like you, but here's another clear example I've already linked:

Alone In the Dark - SecuROM and Unlock FAQ

Humm.. What does that have to do with Spore or Crysis Warhead. Was anyone actually talking about Alone in the Dark?..

Originally posted by: chizow
Every other activation-based SecuROM that received unsubstantiated criticism, like Spore, Crysis Warhead, Mass Effect, etc. did return activations on uninstall, yet you never bothered to clarify those lies and misinformation. I wonder why?

yeah didn't think so..

I was kinda hoping you'd slink off and troll somewhere else after being called out for misinformation and guesswork, what.. around 5 or 6 times now in this thread alone.. Guess you'll never cease to amaze us. lol

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
I own Mass Effect and uninstalled it months ago after not being able to play it due to constant crashes. Well guess what.. I downloaded the EA revoke tool last night and what did I find.. It has 2 activations left..

But don't take my word for it..

LMAO take your word for it, good one:

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Whatever the case may be, it didn't work. I eventually called it quits and gave the game to my brother-in-law.

So did you use the revoke tool on your brother-in-law? Or did you just walk across the trailer park and RECLAIMZYOUGAMEZ.com? Were you even able to uninstall it after you broke your copy with a crack? Is your newfound copy finally working now? Or are you still having fabricated non-SecuROM related issues?

I think i'll believe official confirmation from RA3's Exec Producer, dated 10/19/08, rather than your "confirmation" from some random forum post from June 08.

Originally posted by: mindcycle
..here's official confirmation from RA3's Exec Producer that SecuROM does not refund an activation upon uninstall. The moderator (who quoted the info) also goes on to say this happened with Spore as well.

Quick update. As many conversations as I?ve had about this, it turns out I got an important detail wrong so I need to clarify something important.

An uninstall does not return the entitlement to the user. I?ll be updating my original post to reflect this.

It isn't happening with just RA3, it's also happened with Spore before

http://www.the-prism.com/index.php?topic=876.0

[/quote]
What's RA3? Red Alert 3? What does that game have to do with Mass Effect? Good to know I guess.

Humm.. What does that have to do with Spore or Crysis Warhead. Was anyone actually talking about Alone in the Dark?..

Yep, I specifically mentioned it as an example that SecuROM activation games could return activation on uninstall earlier in this thread, which is clearly the case with Alone in the Dark. It was particularly relevant of course since it was another Atari title.

yeah didn't think so..

I was kinda hoping you'd slink off and troll somewhere else after being called out for misinformation and guesswork, what.. around 5 or 6 times now in this thread alone.. Guess you'll never cease to amaze us. lol

LMAO guesswork? No, its called actual experience with the games because y'know, I actually buy them and don't let DRM concerns prevent me from doing so. I actually spent the last few days making more hardware changes, and in doing so, disproving more FUD and fearmongering with regard to video card updates.

For those interested, changing video cards (SLI and changing main card) does not eat up an activation with Dark Athena or any other SecuROM game that I own.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
LMAO take your word for it, good one:

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Whatever the case may be, it didn't work. I eventually called it quits and gave the game to my brother-in-law.

Originally posted by: chizow
So did you use the revoke tool on your brother-in-law?

Yeah, I "used the revoke tool on my brother-in-law".. lol My brother-in-law lives about 5 mins from my house, so I went and picked it up. He hasn't touched it since I gave it to him. Nice try on your part.. I like how you're really digging now since you know you don't have any valid confirmation to back up your claim.

Originally posted by: chizow
What's RA3? Red Alert 3? What does that game have to do with Mass Effect? Good to know I guess.

It not only clarifies there is no uninstall revoke for the EA game RA3 (Red Alert 3), but also for Spore, an EA title you specifically mention. I also posted a link debunking a revoke uninstall feature for Crysis Warhead, but i'll let you go back and take a look at that one on your own.

So go ahead and post official confirmation that backs up your guesswork and we'll keep debating. Until then I and others would appreciate if you trolled somewhere else.

 

[NoWhereM]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: NoWhereM
Okay, I'll go back and correct some more lies if that will make you happy.

Originally posted by: chizow
Every other activation-based SecuROM that received unsubstantiated criticism, like Spore, Crysis Warhead, Mass Effect, etc. did return activations on uninstall, yet you never bothered to clarify those lies and misinformation. I wonder why?

Link to EA Revoke Tools for Spore, Crysis Warhead, and Mass Effect

As you can see all of the games you claimed returned activations on uninstall actually didn't. That's why EA had to release revoke tools for all of them.

Happy?

Uh, no, its obvious you don't know how the activation limits for those games worked, nor do you have the games to test. The revoke tools are only required if you FUBAR your OS installation before uninstalling the game. If you uninstall the game, you get those installs back:

Mass Effect Forums

Posted: Friday, 13 June 2008 09:27PM

here's your confirmation.. Installed MEPC on 3 computers tried a 4th didn't go. I uninstalled ME from 1 one of 3 pcs it was installed, then tried the 4th computer again and it installed. Ran the game on all computers to test as well.

There's your answer of regaining an activation.

There's plenty of further confirmation throughout ME's forums, something I've personally verified through normal usage without ever having to touch or use any revoke tool.

Chizow did you bother reading the link you provided? They called BS on that poster the same way we call BS every time you post. I posted a link to something written by EA, the company that makes Mass Effect. You posted a link to a dork trying to get attention by making outrageous claims about things he knows nothing about. You know, the same way you keep posting outrageous claims to this thread.

So, let's go back to EA and see what they say, shall we?

EA on De-Authroization, not some dork looking for attention.

I get an error message asking me to contact Customer Service when I run the EA Game-Specific De-Authorization Tool. What do I do?

• If you no longer have the game you wish to de-authorize on your machine, re-install it, and then try running the de-authorizatoin tool

Okay, just to be clear, if you run the De-Authorization Tool and get an error EA asks you to re-install the game if it is no longer on your computer and run the De-Authorization tool again. The point of De-Authorization is to reclaim an install, but if you install the game you use up an installation. The only possible reason they would tell you to re-install your game before running the De-Authorization Tool is that the Authorization remains on your computer even if you uninstall the game. That is why you can install the game and uninstall it on the same machine to your heart's content, the authorization remains on the computer even when you uninstall the game.

So, we can believe a link to an anonymous poster, and you, or we can believe EA. Decisions, decisions.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM
Chizow did you bother reading the link you provided? They called BS on that poster the same way we call BS every time you post. I posted a link to something written by EA, the company that makes Mass Effect. You posted a link to a dork trying to get attention by making outrageous claims about things he knows nothing about. You know, the same way you keep posting outrageous claims to this thread.

lol.. yeah they did call BS on the guy.

This doesn't make any sense at all if the limit is 3 activations.

In your senario proposed above, there is no way the DRM can know you have unistalled from 1 of the 4 machines to let you install on one of the others... I smell bs, unless you were connected to the internet at the time of the uninstallation on the previous machine and also connected on installation on the other machine AND that would translate to -> Allowed 3 installations which you have to Activate but is not tied to any particular machine as long as it is never on more then 3 and as long as the activation/authentication servers are available.

Which would mean that the info given to us by EA/Bioware is erroneous which I doubt strongly, so forgive me if I don't believe what you have writen there, not one bit.

http://masseffect.bioware.com/...=635090&forum=125&sp=0

Originally posted by: NoWhereM
So, we can believe a link to an anonymous poster, and you, or we can believe EA. Decisions, decisions.

Or we could look at what SecuROM says on their official site..

From the SecuROM Support website:

2.2 How do I revoke a previous game activation? (aka: I get the error message: 'Too many activations on different PCs or too many reactivations on the same PC have been performed...')

You can either use the title specific revokation tool (the program has to support this feature, please consult the software publisher regarding such a tool) or you can also visit our manual revoke website (<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://support.securom.com/PAunlock/?c=1400)"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://support.securom.com/PAunlock/?c=1400)"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://support.securom.com/PAunlock/?c=1400)"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://support.securom.com/PAunlock/?c=1400)">[url]https://support.secur............=1400)[/url]</a></a></a></a> to revoke your activation manually.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://support.securom.com/faq_pa.html">https://support.securom.com/faq_pa.html</a>

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow

Alone In the Dark - SecuROM and Unlock FAQ

REVOCATION GUIDELINE :

Revoking the activation is important to reset the full activation rights and allow you to install the game on another computer or sell it. The revocation of the serial is done automatically during the uninstallation process.[/u] However, if you decided not to revoke your license when the option is displayed, you can still do it later by re-installing and de-installing your game or you can download are run a revocation tool from this site.

Above is another important distinction.. Bolded by me for clarity.

So AITD has an option which is presented to revoke the license upon uninstall, but you have to click the option for it to take effect. It doesn't automatically revoke the license.

Mass Effect doesn't have this option when you uninstall.. nor does any other EA game to my knowledge. And since you were talking about EA published games, I still don't see how AITD (published by Atari) has anything to do with the discussion. But thanks for posting that so I can further debunk the misinformation you posted earlier on this thread:

Originally posted by: chizow
What makes anyone think this version of activation SecuROM is any different from the others used in the past, where activations are returned automatically when the game is uninstalled on any given machine?

 

[NoWhereM]

Reading the link chizow provided I actually realized just how absurd his claim that uninstalling the game returns an activation is.

EA keeps track of how many authorizations you have left, not your computer and not the game disk. That's the only way they can know how many computers it is activated on. Their original proposal was to have some games, I believe Mass Effect was one, phone home every ten days. Gamers were outraged and EA decided to just have it phone home every time you activated the game.

If the game phoned home every time you uninstalled it and returned an activation you would have an unlimited number of installations. All you would have to do is install the game, create a restore point on your computer, and than uninstall the game. Your activation would be returned and you could simply go back to your previous restore point.

Someone in the thread chizow linked to actually gave a similar example:

Alright, see... if an uninstall gave you an installation revoke they basically handed you unlimited installs if you use your noodle.

Install game, image drive, uninstall game, restore drive from image.

Bang, installed using no activations. It's pretty easy and I'm pretty sure at least one of the dolts responsible for employing this craptastical DRM method would have the minimal IQ to foresee that eventuality.

 

[NoWhereM]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
So AITD has an option which is presented to revoke the license upon uninstall, but you have to click the option for it to take effect. It doesn't automatically revoke the license.

So Alone in the Dark has a built in revoke tool. Why don't they just put that in every game? If they did than the only time you would lose an installation is when your computer crashes and you have to reinstall your os.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM

Originally posted by: mindcycle
So AITD has an option which is presented to revoke the license upon uninstall, but you have to click the option for it to take effect. It doesn't automatically revoke the license.

So Alone in the Dark has a built in revoke tool. Why don't they just put that in every game? If they did than the only time you would lose an installation is when your computer crashes and you have to reinstall your os.

I agree. I still won't buy a game with install limtis, since they don't do anyone any good, but it is surprising to me as well that EA didn't include this option.

It's funny because I think chizow saw this info awhile back and then just ran with it, assuming EA games had this option without any proof whatsoever. If you read the SecuROM site they leave certain features up to the publisher, so where Atari chose to include the revoke option on uninstall, EA did not. Which is why they eventually released their deinstallation tool to accomplish revoking licenses. If the option existed to revoke upon uninstall i'm almost certain they would state that like Atari did, but if you search their site there is nothing about it.. I wonder why..

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: chizow
So did you use the revoke tool on your brother-in-law? Or did you just walk across the trailer park and RECLAIMZYOUGAMEZ.com? Were you even able to uninstall it after you broke your copy with a crack? Is your newfound copy finally working now? Or are you still having fabricated non-SecuROM related issues?

Once you start attacking the person...you're really digging cause you don't have much else.

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: chizow
So did you use the revoke tool on your brother-in-law? Or did you just walk across the trailer park and RECLAIMZYOUGAMEZ.com? Were you even able to uninstall it after you broke your copy with a crack? Is your newfound copy finally working now? Or are you still having fabricated non-SecuROM related issues?

Once you start attacking the person...you're really digging cause you don't have much else.

How could you sink that low chizow

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Maximilian

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: chizow
So did you use the revoke tool on your brother-in-law? Or did you just walk across the trailer park and RECLAIMZYOUGAMEZ.com? Were you even able to uninstall it after you broke your copy with a crack? Is your newfound copy finally working now? Or are you still having fabricated non-SecuROM related issues?

Once you start attacking the person...you're really digging cause you don't have much else.

How could you sink that low chizow

It doesn't really surprise me at all. He's run out of valid confirmation to back up his guesswork so that's all he's got left.

Of course he could just admit that's he might be wrong on this one and we could get back on topic or just leave the thread alone, but we all know that isn't going to happen. Honestly I don't like getting to this point (simply trying to prove someone wrong) since it really doesn't help discussion of the topic at hand. But in this case I feel it's justified since chizow has derailed every DRM thread he's posted in thus far with off-topic nonsense and accusatory statements toward anyone against his position.

 

[Red Irish]

Apparently, this is now cracked.
How many sales were lost as a result of the DRM?
How many pirates will now enjoy the game without DRM?