"Cleopatra should be played by a Black Woman"

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TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,976
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Next time, read the thread.

1: Cleopatra wasn't Egyptian, she was Greek and Egyptian.

2. Egyptians before the Islamic expansion were Semetic. Egyptians are now far more Arab and Nubian than anything else.

Although Arabs are a slightly different branch, they are still semitic, but yes you are right. It's only natural that the demographics of a region would change after 2,000 years.



I think your number one problem is that you take this a little too seriously, and your second problem is that you're treating this like a debate.

It isn't.

If anything it's a discussion based on certain facts. Obviously the racial connotations have some people's panties in a bunch, but I'm less interested in race than I am the truth. When I said the Egyptians, I was referring to the dominant group of Egyptians from 3,000-1,000 B.C. Obviously someone so astute as yourself had to dissect my implication so that you could go along on your crazed rant.

Secondly, the people who are linking to Arisone either haven't read the article or are relying on the dumbasses who wrote the article to make conclusions for them. Arisone had a different mother than Cleopatra and her father was of a Macedonian line. Heavy in-breeding in the family meant that the line was almost completely pure Macedonian on the father's side.

Arisone may have been black, that's fine. It didn't do her much good, because Cleopatra later had her assassinated...or her father did...someone did.

However, that doesn't mean Cleopatra was by any means "black" and I don't even like using that term. There have been many variations of Africans, including the Zhun Twasi who do not have the Bantu features.
 
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MJinZ

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 2009
8,192
0
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Yay time to throw my hat into this meat grinder...

I disagree with MJinz. I don't think it's racist to bring up ethnicity or skin color when discussing history. Facts are facts. This is racism: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races; discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.

At NO point did any of the primary players (including the OP, Amused, Perknose) imply that one race shouldn't be playing Cleopatra because they were inferior, stupid (pick your derogatory comment) etc. They only seem to be arguing the validity of historical facts/research (at least in this thread).

If you're gonna start re-defining the term, go bitch to Oxford. Otherwise, STFU. It's really a discredit to rational argument when some jerkoff starts screaming: "RACIST!" at the first sign of discussion on anything related to ethnicity. While you're at it, why don't you just discredit the entire field of anthropology because, according to your ranting, it's all racist? Until someone on this thread starts saying something like "Cleopatra couldn't be black because black people were stupid" or "The whities are keeping the black woman down", there is no implied racism.

Now we've got some heated poo-flinging sure. But that's just plain old entertainment...

LOL.

Studying race and ethnicity as a matter of anthropology is absolutely academic. It does not make you racist to want to study humans.

However, joining a KKK forum makes you racist.

Joining an Atheist forum makes you an Atheist.

Joining a Christian forum makes you religious.

Joining a Tech forum (like Anandtech) makes you a tech person.

What you choose to jump on, discuss and argue about tells you exactly all you need to know about your leanings and feelings.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,976
3
71
What the hell are you talking about? That post was not pertaining to you at all.

Here are some facts that can't be disputed.
For one the woman was of some kind of ethnic mix. She clearly would have had some type of darker pigmentation.

Maybe. This isn't "indisputably fact," the only reason you say that is because mainstream politically correct "scholars" have tried to get their name published by saying this.

Cleopatra was a Ptolemy, noted for their inbreeding. Now her father who was almost if not completely pure Macedonian, apparently had two wives, but that didn't mean he didn't have concubines as well. However, all of his children he produced seem to have been of these two wives.

So, the two wives? No one knows. If that skeleton actually turns out to be Arsinoe which I highly doubt, then maybe one was African.

Also, those of you claiming that the skeleton is "African," which would be Perknose and classy, the skull that was believed to have been Arisone's was lost during World War 2.

A simple trip to wikipedia tells us:
The skull was lost in Germany during WWII. However Hilke Thuer examined the old notes and photographs of the now-missing skull,[15][16] and concluded that it shows signs of an admixture of African & Egyptian ancestry mixed with classical Grecian features[9] - despite the fact that Boas, Gravlee, Bernard and Leonard and others have demonstrated that skull measurements are not a reliable indicator of race.[17][18] Although Arsinoe was only a half-sister to Cleopatra, Afrocentrists have accordingly claimed that Cleopatra VII was black.



Furthermore, as I suspected:
f the body in the tomb is Arsinoë, then, given the age of the body, Arsinoë was born between 59 BC and 56 BC, making her between 8 and 11 at the time of Caesar's arrival in Alexandria. Her actions in the brief war that followed had suggested she was someone older than that.[11] As a result of the earlier assumption that she was older, her date of birth was usually placed between 68 BC and 62 BC.[13] which would have made it impossible for her to be the woman buried in the Octagon. However the possibility remains that she was in fact younger than had previously been assumed, and that she may just have been a figurehead rather than an active participant in the war.


So the only evidence that Perknose has presented which is substantial enough to be taken seriously, has already been discredited by serious anthropologists who care about the truth and not sensationalism and political correctness.
 
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TheAdvocate

Platinum Member
Mar 7, 2005
2,561
7
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So where is the 5 page thread of TEHMAC and Amused bitching about Jake Gyllenhal playing a Persian?

I can't seem to find it.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,543
20,236
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Somebody get perk a tampon, okay?

So what do we have here? While the overwhelming historical evidence is that of a greek/semetic Cleopatra, some folks still want to make her part black to ease some thing inside them, or soothe the PC whiners.

On one side we have researchers who CANNOT tell by the dimensions of King Tut's skull if he was part black, yet we have another who looks at a dubious PICTURE of a long LOST skull claimed to be of Cleopatra's sister, and can tell EXACTLY what racial mix she was???

Come on, folks. Time to see his for what it is: Racial appeasement.

This Wiki article sums this all up nicely as it describes the ludicrous controversy over the race of Ancient Egyptians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy

The part on King Tut:

Supporters of Afrocentrism have claimed that Tutankhamun was black, and have protested that attempted reconstructions of Tutankhamun's facial features (as depicted on the cover of National Geographic Magazine) have represented the king as “too white”.[48]

Forensic artists and physical anthropologists from Egypt, France, and the United States independently created busts of Tutankhamun, using a CT-scan of the skull. Biological anthropologist Susan Anton, the leader of the American team, said that the race of the skull was “hard to call”. She stated that the shape of the cranial cavity indicated an African, while the nose opening suggested narrow nostrils, which is usually considered to be a European characteristic. The skull was thus concluded to be that of a North African.[49] Other experts have pointed out that neither skull shapes nor nasal openings are a reliable indication of race.[50]

Although modern technology can reconstruct Tutankhamun's facial structure with a high degree of accuracy based on CT data from his mummy,[51][52] determining his skin tone and eye color is impossible. The clay model was therefore given a flesh coloring which according to the artist was based on an "average shade of modern Egyptians."[53]

Terry Garcia, National Geographic's executive vice president for mission programs, said, in response to some of those protesting against the Tutankhamun reconstruction:

The big variable is skin tone. North Africans, we know today, had a range of skin tones, from light to dark. In this case, we selected a medium skin tone, and we say, quite up front, 'This is midrange.' We will never know for sure what his exact skin tone was or the color of his eyes with 100% certainty. ... Maybe in the future, people will come to a different conclusion.

And the part on Cleopatra:

Cleopatra's race and skin colour have also caused frequent debate as described in an article from The Baltimore Sun.[5] There is also an article titled: Was Cleopatra Black? from Ebony magazine,[6] and an article about Afrocentrism from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch that mentions the question, too.[7] Scholars generally suggest a light olive skin colour for Cleopatra, based on the facts that her Macedonian family had intermingled with the Persian aristocracy of the time, that her mother is not absolutely known for certain,[59] and that her paternal grandmother is not known for certain.[60] Afrocentric assertions of Cleopatra's blackness have, however, continued.

The question was the subject of an heated exchange between Mary Lefkowitz, who has referred in her articles a debate she had with one of her students about the question whether Cleopatra was black, and Molefi Kete Asante, Professor of African American Studies at Temple University. As a response to Not Out of Africa by Lefkowitz, Asante wrote an article, entitled Race in Antiquity: Truly Out of Africa, in which he emphasizes that he "can say without a doubt that Afrocentrists do not spend time arguing that either Socrates or Cleopatra were black."[61]

In 2009, a BBC documentary speculated that Arsinoe IV, the half-sister of Cleopatra VII, may have been part African, and then further speculated that Cleopatra’s mother and thus Cleopatra herself might also have been part African. This was based largely on the claims of Hilke Thür of the Austrian Academy of Sciences, who in the 1990s had examined a headless skeleton of a female child in a 20 BC tomb in Ephesus (modern Turkey) together with the old notes and photographs of the now-missing skull.[62][63] Arsinoe IV and Cleopatra VII, shared the same father (Ptolemy XII Auletes) but had different mothers.

And you post a lone and widely disputed speculation as fact??? You think it trumps my argument?

Now, if they CANNOT tell with any certainty what racial mix Tut was, how are they doing so with this picture of a long lost dubious skull claimed to be that of Cleopatra's sister?

So what are we left with? The fact that Ancient Egyptians were NEITHER white NOR black. Nor were they Arab. What they were, does NOT exist today.

Again, from Seti I's tomb wall:

Left to right
Libyan, Nubian, Asiatic, Egyptian.
Egyptian_races.jpg


We are also left with the fact that Cleopatra was MAINLY Greek and Egyptian, and would have been light olive skinned. The overwhelming evidence points to this fact.

Oh, and Perk, take a fucking Midol before answering, okay?
 
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MJinZ

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 2009
8,192
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So where is the 5 page thread of TEHMAC and Amused bitching about Jake Gyllenhal playing a Persian?

I can't seem to find it.

Yea, his blue eyes, brown hair, and blonde beard - kind of fucked up for an Iranian Arab.
 

TehMac

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2006
9,976
3
71
So where is the 5 page thread of TEHMAC and Amused bitching about Jake Gyllenhal playing a Persian?

I can't seem to find it.

never saw the movie, looked like shit. And I'm not bitching about Jolie, I don't give a shit about the movies.


Either way, that isn't the point. The Persians are a very interesting mixed case of white and semitic origins because the region is where a number of peoples conglomerate.

What is relevant is that a number of people are criticizing Jolie's role because she's Caucasian. Well, so was Cleopatra. If not fully than at least 50-75%.

The Egyptians were not the pure Bantus (not at all) as is commonly and falsely perpetuated.

The fact that this is an issue at all attests to the racist and revisionist agendas some self proclaimed "experts" have.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,158
59
91
never saw the movie, looked like shit. And I'm not bitching about Jolie, I don't give a shit about the movies.


Either way, that isn't the point. The Persians are a very interesting mixed case of white and semitic origins because the region is where a number of peoples conglomerate.

What is relevant is that a number of people are criticizing Jolie's role because she's Caucasian. Well, so was Cleopatra. If not fully than at least 50-75%.

The Egyptians were not the pure Bantus (not at all) as is commonly and falsely perpetuated.

The fact that this is an issue at all attests to the racist and revisionist agendas some self proclaimed "experts" have.

Am totally agreeing with your points, but one other thing people aren't considering:

First off, Jolie IS sort of "exotic-looking". So there's that.

Second: The film's producers...American? Being made by an American film company, no?
So: Whom do people think the producers of this film might want to see as Cleopatra.....one of the most famous actresses (people, really) alive, or some lesser name in the interest of "racial accuracy"...which would actually make it not accurate at all?

Halle Berry? Please....she would be less authentic by a long shot than Jolie.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,543
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So where is the 5 page thread of TEHMAC and Amused bitching about Jake Gyllenhal playing a Persian?

I can't seem to find it.

I see you're confused.

I am not bitching about who plays Cleopatra. ESSENCE MAGAZINE did that. I am mearly pointing out how fucking ignorant they are being by insisting that a black woman play a Greek/Semetic Cleopatra.
 

MJinZ

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 2009
8,192
0
0
I see you're confused.

I am not bitching about who plays Cleopatra. ESSENCE MAGAZINE did that. I am mearly pointing out how fucking ignorant they are being by insisting that a black woman play a Greek/Semetic Cleopatra.

I don't see how that's ignorant.

If you are even slightly black, then you are black. And that's by the Whitey definition.

Considering that everyone agrees that Cleopatra is clearly not white, it makes more sense to cast her with someone who is not white ... yes? :rolleyes:

Perhaps Essence was being over the top insisting on a black actress, but the other ones seemed to just want someone a little less pasty white.
 
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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,543
20,236
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I don't see how that's ignorant.

If you are even slightly black, then you are black. And that's by the Whitey definition.

Considering that everyone agrees that Cleopatra is clearly not white, it makes more sense to cast her with someone who is not white ... yes? :rolleyes:

She comes from an inbreeding Greek family with a dash of Semetic. She was clearly NOT black in appearence.

Jolie, while white and Native American, looks olive skinned and exotic. She also has a crazy seductress type personality. A rather perfect fit. The appearance would be rather like a lighter skinned Persian/Iranian is today.

So yes, it's ignorant afrocentric race baiting.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
i still say they should make her Japanese. a hot one with nice knockers...
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
lol at the arguments. Remember the movie U-571? The studios cast Matthew McConaughey as an American sub captain who found the enigma machine in World War 2 when it was the British? Same thing here. The studio cast Angelina Jolie because she will bring in the $$$.

This is not a history channel documentary. This is a business venture.