"Cleopatra should be played by a Black Woman"

[destrekor]

Oooh. I just read every post here, and am absolutely rolling in a hysterical laughing fit.

Thanks all.

FWIW:
Amused, you are right.

I'm a person who sees stereotypes, but anyone who has read many of my posts here will now, I am anti-race. IMHO, skin color is like hair color. What gets people all hysterical is the apparent attack on culture, and people seeing this so-called "race-card" get thrown out at random. People need to take a step back, take a good look at what they are observing, and calm the fuck down. That isn't just for this thread or this forum, but for civilization in general.
Cultures can, will, and sometimes should, be subject to a good shakedown. Skin tone, not so much.

History is one of my favorite things. I make no effort to proclaim expertise, but I do respect and demand accurate portrayal of historical documents.

Africa is a fucking massive continent. Many tribes, some essentially gone, had black skin tone yet looked, apart from said skin tone, nothing like most modern day blacks. That's the evolution of civilization - tribes, cultures, etc... rise, or fall, and so too do their physiques.

Also of note for this thread:
For any commonly seen as accurate account of history, there exist at least a handful of accounts that claim something otherwise. Cultures rabidly swarm on historical accounts and attempt to paint them as their own, no matter the truth.

Sometimes what is commonly accepted as the truth, is far from it. Most often, the historical documentations are accurate, but a few sources will forever debate said accuracy.

 

[Perknose]

Clever visual.

How many times does an overly self-assured blowhard have to LIE about what you said in a thread -- an easily proved point btw -- before YOU would lose patience with said blowhard?

Once?

Twice?

Three times?

How many times, nk?

 

[Kirby]

How many times does an overly self-assured blowhard have to LIE about what you said in a thread -- an easily proved point btw -- before YOU would lose patience with said blowhard?

Once?

Twice?

Three times?

How many times, nk?

It's the internet, chief. No opinions will ever change. You both can type and rage 'til you're blue in the face. Do you and your blood pressure a favor by rubbing one off via your favorite pr0n site.*




*Discuss your general health status with your doctor to ensure that you are healthy enough to engage in masturbation. If you experience chest pain, nausea, or any other discomforts during masturbation, seek immediate medical help.

 

[TehMac]

Calm down, OP. I love how you and other primitive right-wing simpletons like Amused never fail to get bent out of shape at poor people and black people over the littlest things, like some blacks claiming Cleopatra was black.

Have you ever been in Egypt? I have.

Are you mocking yourself with this paragraph or are you actually serious?

It never occurred to you that the demographics of Egypt (whatever you personally may have seen) couldn't have changed in, o I don't know 2,000 years?

 

[Perknose]

Interesting further development.

Cleopatra, the last Egyptian Pharaoh, renowned for her beauty, was part African, says a BBC team which believes it has found her sister's tomb.

Queen Cleopatra was a descendant of Ptolemy, the Macedonian general who ruled Egypt after Alexander the Great.

But remains of the queen's sister Princess Arsinoe, found in Ephesus, Turkey, indicate that her mother had an "African" skeleton.

Experts have described the results as "a real sensation."

The discovery was made by Hilke Thuer of the Austrian Academy of Sciences.
.
"It is unique in the life of an archaeologist to find the tomb and the skeleton of a member of Ptolemaic dynasty," she said.

"That Arsinoe had an African mother is a real sensation which leads to a new insight on Cleopatra's family and the relationship of the sisters Cleopatra and Arsinoe."

AMUSED ALERT: Note, not even now am I claiming that Cleopatra was black or even part black, just that the scholarship on the issue is highly in doubt, contrary to your smug and simplistic, overly self-assured claims.

 

[Locut0s]

What I find far more telling isn't whether or not Cleopatra was black or not or that some small group of black people are upset that a non black person is playing her, but that such a non story should upset ANYONE! It's not even worth mentioning at all. But as always the people who pick these stores up and run with them tend to be the right-wing fridge types. And don't deny it I know the OP is pretty far right.

 

[Pacfanweb]

You are arguing about historical accuracy of race and race only.

Actually, it appears to me he is arguing AGAINST those that are complaining about Jolie being a white woman chosen to play Cleopatra.

So yes, he's arguing about race, only because that's the subject. It's not that hard.

 

[WA261]

no

 

[classy]

*sigh* You didn't read my original post. And if anything, you don't get it, do you?

What the hell are you talking about? That post was not pertaining to you at all.

Here are some facts that can't be disputed.
For one the woman was of some kind of ethnic mix. She clearly would have had some type of darker pigmentation. We do know one thing is for certain, she wasn't white. Now what is more strange. Taking a white woman and making her look ethnic or actually using an ethnic woman from the beginning?

Because Zoe resembles more than likely what cleopatra looked like, than Jolie.

 

[Locut0s]

What the hell are you talking about? That post was not pertaining to you at all.

Here are some facts that can't be disputed.
For one the woman was of some kind of ethnic mix. She clearly would hvae had some type of darker pigmentation. We do know one thing is for certain, she wasn't white. Now what is more strange. Taking a white woman and making her look ethnic or actually using an ethnic woman from the beginning?

Because Zoe resembles more than likely what cleopatra looked like, than Jolie.

SEXY pic snipped

^This

 

[TehMac]

Interesting further development.

AMUSED ALERT: Note, not even now am I claiming that Cleopatra was black or even part black, just that the scholarship on the issue is highly in doubt, contrary to your smug and simplistic, overly self-assured claims.

I like how you call everyone a liar in this thread who disagrees with you and even have the sheer nerve to oversize your fonts. But then when you distort what other people say, that's the truth, eh?

There have been several instances where "low lifes" have been buried in royalty's tomb. And even the body that was thought to be Hitler's is actually a female's. This was an incident that occurred in the modern period some 60 years ago. What's to prevent even more confusion happening over 2,000 years?

No one said she wasn't black, or at least I didn't. I said it was highly unlikely she was Black, or if she was, only partially. Either way, the link is more than a year old. Not to mention that tomb robbing has occurred for centuries. If you recall, the Pharaoh Tutankhamen's body was not in the "right tomb." Whose to say this person is someone entirely different?

Not to mention the BBC is a bit sensationalist. If I recall correctly, Cleopatra had her sister killed while in Egypt. Possibly a different sister--and possibly a different sister from a different mother.

One thing that confuses me Perknose, is that I am laying out rational arguments. You're behavior is equivalent of a chimpanzee flailing its arms out in the ocean.

I am presenting many caveats of the discussion based not only on history, but pure archaeological common sense. Nothing stays static in 2,000 years, not even tombs.

I don't see anything black and white about the arguments I have made, and Amused may have spoken rashly but he's hardly being any more unreasonable than you.

Furthermore, a quick glance at wikipedia confirms that my initial suspicions were correct anyway. Even if Arsinoe had an African mother (if the body even is Arsinoe) it would be irrelevant because they had different mothers anyway.

 

[Perknose]

Are you mocking yourself with this paragraph or are you actually serious?

It never occurred to you that the demographics of Egypt (whatever you personally may have seen) couldn't have changed in, o I don't know 2,000 years?

Egypt is still in the same continent, Africa, then as it is now, and, it is an historical fact, then as it now, that there were black African (Nubian) and mixed African peoples there then, as there still are today, which was that merely introductory point of mine.

Got that?

Nothing to say about the rest of my post? Which is the MAIN part?

Here, I'll re-quote it for you:

So, was Cleopatra black?

Despite what you, Amused, Shakespeare, Ebony or anyone else thinks, no one really knows with any absolute certainty how black or not Cleopatra was.

THIS above was my point!








And, here, AGAIN, is the supporting scholarly view I quoted:

Here's one non-hysterical stab at trying, though:

Here's where the scholars seem to agree: Cleopatra was the last in a line of Ptolemies--Macedonian Greeks--who ruled Egypt from the death of Alexander the Great in 305 B.C. until Antony's defeat in the battle of Actium in 31 B.C. The Ptolemies, as was the custom, were an incestuous, intermarrying breed (they were concerned about preserving the royal bloodline). But they took their pleasure with the courtiers and concubines who filled their palaces. Many of the children born of these assignations were bestowed a place in the royal lineage despite their dubious--and unspoken--parentage.

Many believe that Cleopatra's father was the product of such a union--his mother may have been a concubine from Nubia or Alexandria. Lending credence to this theory is the fact that Cleopatra's bond to the people of Egypt seemed greater than those of her Ptolemic ancestors, who aligned themselves culturally and linguistically with Greece. "Far more than her predecessors, [Cleopatra] made an effort to learn Egyptian and was very savvy about presenting herself as Egyptian to the people that she ruled," says Molly Levine, a professor of Egyptology in the classics department at Howard University.

So it seems that Cleopatra may have had a true Egyptian (as opposed to Macedonian-Greek) grandmother. Does that make her "Black?" It is a question the organizers of the Field Museum's exhibit wanted to tackle head-on.

"It is a question that is nearly impossible to answer," says Ben Bronson, the museum's [Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago] curator of Asian archeology and ethnology. "What we've tried to do is narrow down the range of possibilities for her ancestry. And when you do that, you see that there is a perfectly good chance that Cleopatra was an African Egyptian. Was she 100 percent African, meaning was her skin dark? Probably not. The Romans, who wrote extensively about her, probably would have noted that. But it is quite possible--given the comings and goings of people in the Ptolemic court--that she was a mixed-race Egyptian."

Read what THE SCHOLAR who mounted the exhibit asked:

Does that make her "Black?" It is a question the organizers of the Field Museum's exhibit wanted to tackle head-on.

And here, again, again, again, is that scholar's answer:

...you see that there is a perfectly good chance that Cleopatra was an African Egyptian. Was she 100 percent African, meaning was her skin dark? Probably not. The Romans, who wrote extensively about her, probably would have noted that. But it is quite possible--given the comings and goings of people in the Ptolemic court--that she was a mixed-race Egyptian."

You DO understand what he means by "mixed-race" Egyptian, don' you? He even spells it right out in the above quote, not 100% African, but possibly racially mixed, and further possibly with black (Nubian) blood.

Amused somehow didn't "understand" this.

But you're not that willfully stupid . . . are you?

 

[Zebo]

I'm going with who gives a fuck? Halle Barry would be a fine choice. A lot better than that Jolie and her crack addict look with augmented face and lips neither of which they had back then.

 

[Perknose]

I like how you call everyone a liar in this thread who disagrees with you...

There you go, materially misrepresenting what I said.

There is only ONE person in this thread I called a LIAR, the guy who several times directly LIED about what I said, Amused.

No one said she wasn't black...

Listen very closely:

Cleopatra was NOT black in any way, shape or form.

You unbelievably careless and lazy fuck!

In fact, it was the very first thing Amused posted in this thread.

No one said she wasn't black, or at least I didn't.

Lol, wut? You said so right in your OP!

Cleopatra was not black, none of the Egyptian peoples were.

You (and Amused) can't even keep your basic facts straight when you attack me.

It's like arguing with retards or the deliberately dishonest, take your pick.

I don't suppose YOU'LL admit and redact your exposed untruths above now, will you?

 

[classy]

WEll Amused and few others, its a good chance Cleopatra was part black, lol

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5908494.ece

ARCHEOLOGISTS and forensic experts believe they have identified the skeleton of Cleopatra’s younger sister, murdered more than 2,000 years ago on the orders of the Egyptian queen.

The remains of Princess Arsinöe, put to death in 41BC on the orders of Cleopatra and her Roman lover Mark Antony to eliminate her as a rival, are the first relics of the Ptolemaic dynasty to be identified.

Evidence obtained by studying the dimensions of Arsinöe’s skull shows she had some of the characteristics of white Europeans, ancient Egyptians and black Africans, indicating that Cleopatra was probably of mixed race, too. They were daughters of Ptolemy XII by different wives.

“It has got this long head shape,” said Wilkinson. “That’s something you see quite frequently in ancient Egyptians and black Africans. It could suggest a mixture of ancestry.”

Like I posted earlier Zoe over Jolie. Also that article is a good read. My final point is its no more outrageous if the part was played by a black woman. Hell nobody knows exactly what the hell cleopatra was or looked like.

 

[Zebo]

I hope it's better than ET version. I have a certain subset of movies on htpc I take naps to like Lawrence of Arabia and Cleopatra is one too. Snore fest.

 

[grrl]

I think they should cast Oprah for Cleopatra.

 

[IGBT]

And, technically speaking, she shouldn't be pretty.

true. in reality she was probably 4'9" and 300 lbs.

 

[Kirby]

I hope it's better than ET version. I have a certain subset of movies on htpc I take naps to like Lawrence of Arabia and Cleopatra is one too. Snore fest.

NO, YOU GO TO HELL, YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE!

/Mr. Garrison

 

[SKORPI0]

And, technically speaking, she shouldn't be pretty.

I think they should cast Oprah for Cleopatra.

WTF!!!

 

[Connoisseur]

Yay time to throw my hat into this meat grinder...

I disagree with MJinz. I don't think it's racist to bring up ethnicity or skin color when discussing history. Facts are facts. This is racism: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races; discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.

At NO point did any of the primary players (including the OP, Amused, Perknose) imply that one race shouldn't be playing Cleopatra because they were inferior, stupid (pick your derogatory comment) etc. They only seem to be arguing the validity of historical facts/research (at least in this thread).

If you're gonna start re-defining the term, go bitch to Oxford. Otherwise, STFU. It's really a discredit to rational argument when some jerkoff starts screaming: "RACIST!" at the first sign of discussion on anything related to ethnicity. While you're at it, why don't you just discredit the entire field of anthropology because, according to your ranting, it's all racist? Until someone on this thread starts saying something like "Cleopatra couldn't be black because black people were stupid" or "The whities are keeping the black woman down", there is no implied racism.

Now we've got some heated poo-flinging sure. But that's just plain old entertainment...

 

[grrl]

WTF!!!

Perfect! Plus Oprah's already got some of the necessary jewelry.

 

[Triumph]

Of course. Black people who talk about or whine about White and Blacks all day are about the most racist people on Earth.

ok. as long as you're applying your ideas consistently. thank you.

 

[RaistlinZ]

Another poster made a good point, Cleopatra would likely not be very tanned at all since she kept out of the sun. 1/2 Egyptian + 1/2 Greek =/= dark complextion.

I like how they portrayed her in the "Rome" series.

 

[MJinZ]

What about Queen Latifah? She is mixed (lighter skin) and she's already a Queen right?