"China thinks it can defeat America in battle"

[xj0hnx]

If we do not import chinese products, russia and europe will.

Do you realize if china cut us off we would reset maybe 100 years? No motors, no replacement car or truck parts, no wheel bearings, no tools, no clothes,,, nothing.

Replaced wheel bearings on your car lately? Done a brake job? Chances are all those parts were made in china.

It would take us decades to rebuild the factories lost to free trade. We do not even have to tools to start rebuilding.

No it wouldn't. You obviously do not realize how much stuff America still makes, or that comes from places other than China. Pretty much anything of halfway decent quality does not come from China, all we'd lose are knock-offs and crappy Walmart imitation products. Japan, Europe, hell even Mexico all produce a lot of our products, and they are better than the Chinese versions could ever hope to be. Our country would do nothing but improve if we cut-off China.

 

[xj0hnx]

China's weaponry is nearly as (just as, in some cases) advanced as that possessed by the USA. So I tend to weight that aspect closer to parity, perhaps, than many people would. I could be wrong, but IMHO, the technological advantage we might have in a land war is far outweighed by numbers.

And as far as manpower, it's no contest: We would be fighting at a 3 to 1 disadvantage to start off with. And conventional wisdom says the attackers should have a 4 to one advantage to be reasonably sure of victory. And that disadvantage would only get worse, since a 1.3 Billion population yields far more soldiers than the USA's 300 Million. AND we would have to fight half a world away. AND we have a well documented cultural fear/angst/revulsion against seeing large numbers of our sons coming home in plastic bags.

Hold areas for a while? Sure. But No way would we ultimately win on the ground in China.

Our troops are a lot better trained, and after the last 10+ years a large majority are battle hardened combat veterans. I'd take our 1 over their 3 ANY day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

 

[theeedude]

iPhone is halfway decent quality, and it comes from China. So it's not just cheap Walmart junk. But even if it was, a lot of the country can barely afford cheap Walmart junk. Could we adapt eventually? Yes. Could it be beneficial in the long term? Also yes, but not for the corporations that run America. Would it be extremely difficult. Also yes. You'd have huge inflation because there would be a shortage of goods and workers to replace Chinese labor and Chinese would also dump US dollar denominated holdings devaluing the dollar.

 

[smackababy]

Our troops are a lot better trained, and after the last 10+ years a large majority are battle hardened combat veterans. I'd take our 1 over their 3 ANY day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

These people who think China is anywhere close to the US in terms of military power are stupid. China has no answer to the F-22. They have no answer to the F-35. In the event of any real conflict, there wouldn't be ground occupation. We wouldn't need it. We have the capabilities to launch attacks from Turkey and Guam that would cripple China before they could hit any target near the US.

 

[werepossum]

Well.... In that case...

We

Are

Truly

F*CKED


Ladies and Gentlemen


I present for your kind consideration




THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS

+1

In this case though our gross incompetence protects us from our, um, gross incompetence. If Obama asks Congress to declare war on China, then Congress, half of which hates pretty much all things that are Obama, will refuse to go along. If Congress independently declares war on China, then Obama, hating pretty much all things that aren't Obama, will refuse to go along. It's the doctrine of MAD (Mutual Assured Dimwittery.)

These people who think China is anywhere close to the US in terms of military power are stupid. China has no answer to the F-22. They have no answer to the F-35. In the event of any real conflict, there wouldn't be ground occupation. We wouldn't need it. We have the capabilities to launch attacks from Turkey and Guam that would cripple China before they could hit any target near the US.

In all fairness to China, they can probably afford to wait on an answer to the F-35 until the thing actually works. The F-22 is a different story, but we bought so few that as a front line fighter it's quite limited in where it can be and what it can do.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Our troops are a lot better trained, and after the last 10+ years a large majority are battle hardened combat veterans. I'd take our 1 over their 3 ANY day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Like SA says, it's pretty commonly know in the US that it's troops are better trained.
But how are you determining that?

Also, I see returned Army vets posting at http://www.reddit.com/r/Military/ posting they never seen any combat.
How are you determining your battle hardened numbers?

 

[Nebor]

The Chinese are literally 20 years behind us in military technology. The United States would seize and hold air superiority virtually immediately, and it'd be all downhill from there. The US Navy is more advanced and larger than all the rest of the navies in the world combined.

 

[xj0hnx]

Like SA says, it's pretty commonly know in the US that it's troops are better trained.
But how are you determining that?

Also, I see returned Army vets posting at http://www.reddit.com/r/Military/ posting they never seen any combat.
How are you determining your battle hardened numbers?

Because I was deployed with a lot of them, and have seen a lot of them deploy since, guys that have deployed five to ten times. And I didn't give "numbers", so play your gotcha games with someone else.

 

[John Connor]

That article is assuming that China can ONLY send in an invasion force by boat.

What about paratroopers? Or Air Transport?

Aircraft carriers don't have planes?

 

[John Connor]

As far as China having us by the proverbial "balls" they don't. If you know anything about Pre WWII you will know our military wasn't as strong as it is now and we built like crazy in those 4 years of war. We could do it again!

 

[kage69]

Do you own a bunch of Newport news stock? Never understood thanking ppl for "service". What are they doing for you exactly besides sucking up about 30% of your taxes and many would argue create more enemies. If they took saudi and distributed revenues to USA citizens I might agree.

I happen to think serving on a boomer is no cake walk for a variety of reasons, and felt I'd compliment and thank him based on that. He was instrumental in operating combat systems aboard a ship considered invaluable to our national defense, and for long periods of time. I see that as commendable service worthy of praise and thanks. Subs provide some of the best, if not THE best, deterrence for bitch ass dictators who may feel the need to dance with the devil in the pale moonlight.

Sorry you don't understand. Not even going to bother with your parting comment...

 

[John Connor]

These people who think China is anywhere close to the US in terms of military power are stupid. China has no answer to the F-22. They have no answer to the F-35. In the event of any real conflict, there wouldn't be ground occupation. We wouldn't need it. We have the capabilities to launch attacks from Turkey and Guam that would cripple China before they could hit any target near the US.

http://news.usni.org/2014/03/19/china-unveils-capable-stealth-fighter-prototype

 

[Orignal Earl]

Because I was deployed with a lot of them, and have seen a lot of them deploy since, guys that have deployed five to ten times. And I didn't give "numbers", so play your gotcha games with someone else.

It's too bad you see this as a gotcha game.
I have respect for soldiers who have seen combat like you.

 

[Orignal Earl]

RIP

Corporal David Braun

Age: 27
Home Town: Raymore, Saskatchewan
Unit: 2nd Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Shilo, Manitoba
Deceased: August 22, 2006
Incident: Suicide bomber attack

Let's just say this guy hit me very close to home

 

[smackababy]

In all fairness to China, they can probably afford to wait on an answer to the F-35 until the thing actually works. The F-22 is a different story, but we bought so few that as a front line fighter it's quite limited in where it can be and what it can do.

We have F-35s that work. =)

And, the number of F-22s at the moment might seem low, however, in simulations against F-16s, a small number were able to engage and destroy 100 F-16s without losing a single plane. Their weaponry, targeting system, and stealth abilities make them able to engage and destroy before previous gen stuff could even detect them.

http://news.usni.org/2014/03/19/china-unveils-capable-stealth-fighter-prototype

The J-20 1) isn't out of prototype and 2) hasn't actually been demonstrated to be anywhere on par with the F-22 other than China claiming. We have actual F-22s in the field, ready to go. What does China have to match that? That still leaves them with zero answer (although, I think they have a clone in the works) of the F-35s.

 

[John Connor]

Just remember, stealth isn't full prof it means low visibility. I love the F-22 and fly it all the time in the sim, but you have to know your enemy and what the capabilities are. It ain't pure stealth.

 

[smackababy]

Just remember, stealth isn't full prof it means low visibility. I love the F-22 and fly it all the time in the sim, but you have to know your enemy and what the capabilities are. It ain't pure stealth.

Of course, stealth doesn't mean invisible completely and can't be shot down, but having good stealth offers an unimaginable advantage. The F-22 has weapons systems capable of targeting before radar detection systems are able to detect it, at this point, at least. That gives it a massive advantage over anything China could use against it. And, given it's additional advanced capabilities in air to air combat, China couldn't stop our meager amount of F-22s with a few thousand SU-27 clones.

 

[kage69]

Typhoon was not constructed with a titanium hull.

You are trying to refute a statement I didn't make, but you are still incorrect. Typhoon's pressure hulls, center plane and torpedo rooms were made out of titanium.

The Spearfish and ADCAPs were developed because of the use of titanium by the Russians. Made those Alfas so damn quick they could outmaneuver earlier fish. I thought it was an issue of payload, but speed was the issue apparently.

 

[CitizenKain]

We have F-35s that work. =)

F-35's are garbage, its the MIC dream of providing a terrible expensive machine for as many people as possible.

 

[TerryMathews]

Just remember, stealth isn't full prof it means low visibility. I love the F-22 and fly it all the time in the sim, but you have to know your enemy and what the capabilities are. It ain't pure stealth.

The data link capabilities of the F-22 and F-35 are IMO better than their stealth capabilities.

No one else is fielding technology like this which could be called mesh radar networking.

One F-35 can provide radar data for a whole wing of F-22s who would be able to engage off axis and BVR without emitting one electron. They can also pump data back into AWACS and JSTARS.

 

[werepossum]

We have F-35s that work. =)

And, the number of F-22s at the moment might seem low, however, in simulations against F-16s, a small number were able to engage and destroy 100 F-16s without losing a single plane. Their weaponry, targeting system, and stealth abilities make them able to engage and destroy before previous gen stuff could even detect them.

The J-20 1) isn't out of prototype and 2) hasn't actually been demonstrated to be anywhere on par with the F-22 other than China claiming. We have actual F-22s in the field, ready to go. What does China have to match that? That still leaves them with zero answer (although, I think they have a clone in the works) of the F-35s.

Meh. We have several dozen F-35s of which none are fully capable, perhaps a third are operable at all at any given time, all of which are grounded roughly a quarter of the year for safety problems, none of which have a next gen ground attack system even designed, and all of which have to be immediately upgraded as soon as we finish manufacturing the first service block. I agree that China has and will have in the next decade nothing to match the F-22, although you might want to build a time machine so you can go back in time and ask the Nazis how having a few hundred technologically superior fighters works out. As far as studies, they generally show whatever one needs them to show, which is why the Rand Corporation's study showed the F-35 defeated one on one by the latest Sukhoi fighters and the Army's study showed the Stryker defeating the M113 in road marches despite losing badly in the actual road march tests.

The data link capabilities of the F-22 and F-35 are IMO better than their stealth capabilities.

No one else is fielding technology like this which could be called mesh radar networking.

One F-35 can provide radar data for a whole wing of F-22s who would be able to engage off axis and BVR without emitting one electron. They can also pump data back into AWACS and JSTARS.

That I agree is a game changer. However, relying on a game changer can be disastrous if one's enemy finds a way around it, such as using cell towers to track stealth aircraft.

None of this matters as we are not going to war with China any time soon, and probably not at all. If for no other reason, war is a means to continue forwarding national interests when other means fail, and China is achieving its national interests nicely without war.

 

[Orignal Earl]

However, relying on a game changer can be disastrous if one's enemy finds a way around it, such as using cell towers to track stealth aircraft.

Microwave ovens during the Kosovo war against cruise missiles

 

[Nebor]

FWIW every unclass MDCOA I've seen for China in a US\Chinese battle over Taiwan involves China immediately detonating high altitude nuclear weapons in order to largely cripple our technological advantages. The loss of satellite surveillance, communications, & GPS would significantly degrade US capabilities in the region. It's also believed that secondary means of communications that rely on bouncing signals off the ionosphere would be severely degraded, leaving US forces in the affected area unable to communicate with higher headquarters. In effect, their strategy is to shrink the battlefield in order to limit US technological influence enabling their rapid invasion of Taiwan before US forces can reestablish communications and regroup. Then we're left in the position of having to largely destroy Taiwan in order to retake it from entrenched Chinese forces.

A broader war would IMO significantly favor the US due to our advanced technology and the size\sophistication\training of our Navy & Air Force.

 

[John Connor]

If China sends a nuke that effects them too. We will return the favor.

 

[smackababy]

FWIW every unclass MDCOA I've seen for China in a US\Chinese battle over Taiwan involves China immediately detonating high altitude nuclear weapons in order to largely cripple our technological advantages. The loss of satellite surveillance, communications, & GPS would significantly degrade US capabilities in the region. It's also believed that secondary means of communications that rely on bouncing signals off the ionosphere would be severely degraded, leaving US forces in the affected area unable to communicate with higher headquarters. In effect, their strategy is to shrink the battlefield in order to limit US technological influence enabling their rapid invasion of Taiwan before US forces can reestablish communications and regroup. Then we're left in the position of having to largely destroy Taiwan in order to retake it from entrenched Chinese forces.

A broader war would IMO significantly favor the US due to our advanced technology and the size\sophistication\training of our Navy & Air Force.

A high altitude detonation will have to launch from somewhere. We can detect any launches and deal with them long before that happens. There is literally no scenario in which China can cripple the US. China would have to perform such a detonation over Guam to have close to a chance, but we have Incirlik on the other side of China. You think any real act of aggression is going to stop the US from obliterating mainland China? They can go into Taiwan all they'd like, while we are bombing Bejing.