Angry protesters descend on mosque

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Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
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Actually you fail my friend. One of the major reasons why Bin Laden hates the US is that he believes our presence in Saudi Arabia (which is the home nation to the Islamic holy city of Mecca) is an affront to all of Islam and then using number 2 which you site only further goes to prove how Bin Laden uses his religion and its teachings of jihad to bolster his fanatical claims.

As for McVeigh his actions were more attributed to his political beliefs on the nature and role of the federal government then his view points on god.


The motives for the attacks include the presence of the U.S. in Saudi Arabia,[133] the support of Israel by the U.S.,[134] and the sanctions against Iraq.[135]
These motives were explicitly stated by Al-Qaeda in proclamations before the attacks,

Notice how they did not say their motives were to kill other religions or due to their religion?

McVeigh did his bombings due to actions of the Gov as well. Waco, ridge, etc...

Both had the same reason, they believed the US Gov over stepped its bounds and did things they thought it should not.
 
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WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
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True. Does the Bible instruct people to murder infidels to the degree that the Quran does?

Torture and burn heritics to save their soul, enslave, torture and kill colored peoples if the slavers put up a church to convert them? The "you're cursed by God with a brown skin and accept your servitude" sermons are an example.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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But you put no energy whatsoever into condemning the hateful bigoted reactions.

Why? Your passive acceptance of ignorant anti-Islam bigotry ruling the day is revealing.

Instead, you devote your eloquence, paragraph after learned paragraph in post after post, parsing Christianity as "not really" the religion of hate while remaining silent on those who would tar Islam with that same ugly bigoted brush.

Where you put your energies is a window into your true feelings.

You are fooling no one but yourself about this.
Is this no less true about yourself and Christianity? I don't ever recall seeing you call someone out for anti-Christian bigotry.
 
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daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
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Torture and burn heritics to save their soul, enslave, torture and kill colored peoples if the slavers put up a church to convert them? The "you're cursed by God with a brown skin and accept your servitude" sermons are an example.

Whoa, that is new to me, source?
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
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Torture and burn heritics to save their soul, enslave, torture and kill colored peoples if the slavers put up a church to convert them? The "you're cursed by God with a brown skin and accept your servitude" sermons are an example.

whoa.. what? wtfareyoutalkingabout ?
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
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What these people did was wrong. But to say the mosque is an answer is delusional. You can't blame muslims as a whole for what Bin Laden and his gang did. But its a slap in the face to this nation and country to build a mosque in ground zero. Its like having someone come into your house rape and murder your wife and kids. Then burn the house to the ground. 24 months later the cousins of those same people buy the property and build a playground on it. Its disgraceful, it really is.

Yeah, that is exactly what it is like! GTFU.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
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So if a christian bombs an area there can be no churches in that area or surrounding areas afterward?

These people and their fanbois posting here are so woefully transparent it is fucking pathetic. Somehow I'm betting there would be no uproar if they wanted to build a Catholic Church near the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
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BassBomb

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2005
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So how do you decide what to pick and choose?

verse 123450 "oh.. thats crazy, that can't be right"

verse 348798435 "wow, spot on.. amazing!"

Isn't that almost how most Christians do it? Don't play dumb..

I am practising because my family is, the Quran can't be taken literally just like the Bible shouldn't be.... When people try to do this to me I basically call them on it (including my parents)

As far as picking and choosing, plenty of Muslims know Arabic w/o understanding it (for example Pakistani like my family and etc) they are supposed to learn to read it. So I don't know the literal translations in Arabic, they can get skewed in English. So I do not pick and choose based on a verse. I pick and choose by what I find is easy to follow and not ridiculous. For example: Not drinking alchohol, thats fine with me, I don't want to anyway... Making sure everything you eat all the time must be Halal, I don't care that much because I like to eat out and I'd rather not waste my time looking for only Halal food.

See there you go? I can pick and choose how I want.

The idea that you like to portray that a Muslim has engraved on their skull that America must die is such bullshit. This kind of thinking only pushes people to that edge... The religion did not attack WTC, brainwashed people --> terrorists who took a fucking book literally did.

Don't punish American Muslims for what they did not do.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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These people are probably the same nuts that show up outside Mormon Temples telling people they are going to hell. From My experience at the Salt Lake City Temple, I can tell you that it will not work. This is not a very effective way to send someone a message.

I wonder what they would think if a bunch of Muslims showed up at their church on Sunday telling them they have declared a Fatwa Against their chuch and cursed at their children?
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
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Thats the thing. That Mosque is not being built at the WTC, it is being built a couple blocks away and you would not even know it if religious idiots did not point it out.

Fox and others that keep harping on it keep leaving out details like that. i.e. its a non-story

Leaving out details like what? They have been showing maps of exactly where they are planning on building it, more of your ignorant hate Fox rhetoric. I hope Greg Gutfeld goes through with building his gay bar right next door to the mosque, and that the muslims there don't avoid a "dialog" with them.

I find it extremely humurous watching all the same people that clamor over gay rights, and equality coming out in full force for muslims.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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I find it extremely humurous watching all the same people that clamor over gay rights, and equality coming out in full force for muslims.
What is so humorous about that?

Personally I'd think the the Muslim community would see all the grief and outrage their Mosque would cause and not build it there for PR sake.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
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Leaving out details like what? They have been showing maps of exactly where they are planning on building it, more of your ignorant hate Fox rhetoric. I hope Greg Gutfeld goes through with building his gay bar right next door to the mosque, and that the muslims there don't avoid a "dialog" with them.

I find it extremely humurous watching all the same people that clamor over gay rights, and equality coming out in full force for muslims.

I guess a simple mind would have problems with it.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
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What is so humorous about that?

Because muslims typically despise homosexuals. This isn't radical loonies either, pretty much any muslim I've met is pretty disgusted by it, and their culture certainly is not inline with the American progressives, by a LONG shot.

Personally I'd think the the Muslim community would see all the grief and outrage their Mosque would cause and not build it there for PR sake.

The guy building it doesn't care, he was even offered city property at a different location and turned it down so he can rub the attacks in Americas face, and if anyone thinks building this mosque here is about ANYTHING else, they are niave, or brainwashed.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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One question is, is Osama bin Laden religious? Yes, he's a fundamentalist/radial, from what I've seen - not just 'using' religion (like some do in this country) for politics.

His branch of religion is very unpopular among Muslims, just as some radical branches of Christianity are very unpopular among most Christians.

For example, many racist groups consider themselves Christian, but most Christians disagree with them.

Now, another question is, were bin Laden's motives the ones he stated? Or were they something else?

We've reviewed his stated motives - from the US military bases in Saudi Arabia, to US callousness about civilian casualties from Iraq sanctions, to Palestinians and more.

These aren't unreasonable 'issues' - indeed, they are good 'PR' issues in the Muslim world, things Muslims (and some in the US who are concerned with moral issues) care about.

For example, imagine if Saudi Arabia not only had bases here, but kept a dictatorship in power over the US so they could get our resources cheaply. We wouldn't mind, right?

And that's just the secular issue, not even getting into the religious - maybe toss in Saudi Arabia doing the same thing in the 'holy land'.

But what exactly were his motives for the attack, with those concerns? Did he expect the US to fall and him to take over? No. Did he expect the US to change these policies because of the attacks? No, that makes no sense either. Was it just a desperate attack for the sake of striking out at his enemy? That's the most plausible, but first consider the other motive.

Al Queda saw themselves losing ground in the Muslim world. The Taliban was always under 10% approval from Afghans even when they ruled the country; most Muslims wanted nothing to do with the Al Queda faction, they were tiny and more and more at risk from other Muslims who opposed them. What would they like? To get huge numbers of Muslims on their side.

But how to do that? Well, making a common enemy is among the best ways. The offenses above had Muslim support, but had not made Muslims turn to Al Queda.

What would? The US attacking a Muslim nation would rip apart 'peace', good relations, and drive masses of Muslims to turn against the US with a passion.

Ironically, this is pretty much the same thing that happened for Bush - a country that had a pretty poor opinion of him, when there was an enemy who attacked us, had much of the country including his opponents unite and his approval rating shot from low (relative to the norm for a President) and declining, to 90%.

But bin Laden couldn't just order the US to attack a Muslim nation, to get the result he wanted from the backlash against the attack. How could he get the US to attack?

His small attacks on an embassy here, a small ship there, were not enough to do it. They were news stories for a day.

But if he could launch a big attack on the US's own land, the US would 'have to' respond with an attack on Muslim land - and, he hoped, invade a Muslim country.

That's the thing 9/11 was just right for - and IMO the only thing that makes sense.

And Bush and the rest of the government for war played right into his hands.

Win-win - Republicans got the issue that gave them political power and spending in the areas they want it, and bin Laden got an uprising among Muslims to radicalism. Perhaps not the way he hoped for - the Muslim world is still not pro-Al Queda, the US Muslims have not joined him - but it's still a lot more contentious, Al Queda has a lot bigger presence and visibility, than before.

Osama bin Laden was able to say what his reasons were - picking the popular causes among Muslims to milk the support from those outraged by the US wars. Many here have poked holes in bin Laden's PR - showing his lack of concern and hypocrisy on the issues he said he's concerned about (except bases in Saudi Arabia, which appears to be a real issue for him that helped push him to become radical).

So, which do you want to pick as bin Laden's reason for 9/11?

The PR list he gave that sound good to Muslims that he was recruiting, which he's been shown a phony on, and were not helped by the attack?

Or that his reason was to provoke the US into an excessive retaliation - one of the most common motives for small terrorist groups against a powerful force, getting them to use that force excessively and create enemies (the Muslims in the Bosnia/Serbia conflict did the same thing, shooting police and teachers to provoke a massive government response which they could then point to as 'outrages' by the government - they even hired a US PR firm who launched a campaign comparing the government to Hitler, and it worked).

IMO, ten years after 9/11 that has driven so much of our policy, wouldn't it be nice for America to get the motive for the attack right, finally, and that we played into it?

Our emotional opposition to a mosque near ground zero is exactly what the attackers want - tension between the US and Muslims, making Muslims into enemies.

That's how Al Queda wants to recruit more people, by increasing the conflict between the US and Muslim world. Muslim haters are Al Queda's pawns.

And this is with practically no terrorism on US soil. It's *remarkable* that with millions of Muslims in the US, a good number of them haven't misguidedly turned to terrorism, as the counterpart of the millions of Americans who have turned to hate of Muslims. Even if we did have a number of Muslim terrorist attacks, when most Muslims opposed them, they should not be allowed to serve their purpose of creating hate between non-Muslims and Muslims - but we're seeing that hate even with almost universal 'good behavior'.

It's so easy to create division and hate and fuel war, as history shows, however much we look back and say 'that wasn't worth the human cost'.

The best thing we can do on this for peace and to not let the 9/11 attackers get the war they want is to support a Mosque near 9/11, with our friends the Muslims.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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Personally I'd think the the Muslim community would see all the grief and outrage their Mosque would cause and not build it there for PR sake.

I do not know if the move was an attempt to force tolerance or a confirmation that they had the right to build it but anyone with half a brain could see that this move would not go over well.

Sure - they should and do have the right to build here. However, when presented with an opportunity to perhaps mend broken fences in America's relationship with Islam they stubbornly flaunted their right to not do so. For better or worse both sides have actively avoided taking steps to calm a sensitive subject and this has only deepened the divide

IMO the McVeigh bombings do not compare as they left no where near the scar on American psyche that the WTC bombings did.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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So than yes fox is leaving out details as there has been a mosque about a block away from there for 40 years named the Masjid Manhattan Mosque and I'm sure there are more.

I would imagine there would be a significant difference in stance towards an existing mosque (or rebuilding one) than adding a new one
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I do not know if the move was an attempt to force tolerance or a confirmation that they had the right to build it but anyone with half a brain could see that this move would not go over well.

Sure - they should and do have the right to build here. However, when presented with an opportunity to perhaps mend broken fences in America's relationship with Islam they stubbornly flaunted their right to not do so. For better or worse both sides have actively avoided taking steps to calm a sensitive subject and this has only deepened the divide

IMO the McVeigh bombings do not compare as they left no where near the scar on American psyche that the WTC bombings did.

During the civil rights era, with bigotry strong in the south, there was a debate whether it was better to confront the racism - this is where whites and blacks would exercise blacks' rights to ride buses across the south - despite the white mobs who would wait for them at bus stations and ambush them with beatings.

Many said that was a terrible idea, 'trying to force tolerance', advising against it because 'it would not go over well'. The Kennedys' own first reaction was to oppose the rides - but the riders drug them in, the Kennedeys needed to send in federal marshals, to work with southern leaders for police protection, if for nothing else than to prevent international news stories and photos that embarrassed the US in the cold war.

The riders didn't listen and did the rides. President Kennedy sent his personal representative to the South to negotiate - and HE was knocked unconscious by the mob.

Southern leaders would promise police protection - and then hold it back ten minutes for a free for all beating period.

This helped drive the Kennedys and America more and more against the southen mobs, when their earlier position - for a century, really - had been not to do anything.

Now that's not the agenda as I understand it of the Muslims - they're just dealing with the local need in the area for a community center.

But I have to say that the way to deal with this is NOT to acommodate the bigotry and not build 'because it won'r go over well' and support the wrong views based on hating Muslims, but to challenge the wrong views and push people to a better understanding. The 'avoid any conflict' view you are pushing was more harm than good in other civil rights issues and it is here. Giving in to the bigotry strengthens it.

We need to support our neutral laws and protect the Muslim equality, not violate our own laws for bigoted politics that strengthens bigotry and undermines the rule of law.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Because muslims typically despise homosexuals. This isn't radical loonies either, pretty much any muslim I've met is pretty disgusted by it, and their culture certainly is not inline with the American progressives, by a LONG shot.

As you know I don't normally read much less reply to you, but saw this and a reply is useful.

He didn't ask what's true about it, he asked what's humorous.

As with my recent clash with Classy, where I am a strong supporter of black rights and a strong critic of the well above average black bigotry against gays, I am a strong supporter of justice with Muslims, opposing the ignorance and war mongers who strengthen hate and conflict and are unfair, while I have also been a strong critic of the massive ignorance and bigotry pervasive in the Muslim community against homosexuals.

That's not 'funny'. It's tragic that it exists.

Supporting peace and good relations between people by supporting putting a mosque near ground zero, the opposite of what the 9/11 attackers would want to see (good relations) and more importantly the right thing to do, does not in any way change my strong opposition to some things common among Muslims that I disagree with.

Give them their mosque - AND engage them to challenge them on their bigotry.