Affirmative Action - Get rid of it...work for a living!

[gururu]

How woud YOU feel if you were turned down for a position because some less qualified student or applicant was of a different race

I worked in the pharmaceutical industry before grad school, and I've personally seen less qualified white applicants get promoted before more qualified asians, blacks and hispanics. In those settings, caucasians were embraced by the older white upper management.
In one company, something very funny actually happened. The company was bought out by a Japanese company called Otsuka (Pocari Sweat). After a few months, half the upper management was dismissed and replaced with young Japanese graduates that needed to have asistants that spoke english. I had a good Japanese buddy who during that time revelled in the new coup.

 

[FlashG]

AA? Give it a rest.

If the effect of this (mandated favoritism) wasn't so destrustive AA would be one the greatest joke's in modern times.

Most of the people in favor of this concept wouldn't know hard times if it hit them in the face. All this does is divide people againt one another. It's not, or ever has been, a truly positive uplifting program for the common man. It is, however, a great device for creating unrest and hatred.

jmho

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: gururu

How woud YOU feel if you were turned down for a position because some less qualified student or applicant was of a different race

I worked in the pharmaceutical industry before grad school, and I've personally seen less qualified white applicants get promoted before more qualified asians, blacks and hispanics. In those settings, caucasians were embraced by the older white upper management.
In one company, something very funny actually happened. The company was bought out by a Japanese company called Otsuka (Pocari Sweat). After a few months, half the upper management was dismissed and replaced with young Japanese graduates that needed to have asistants that spoke english. I had a good Japanese buddy who during that time revelled in the new coup.

and you probably considered that discrimination on the part of japanese.

guess what, language and cultural considerations DO make a person MORE qualified.

i was a sales rep for an Indian consulting firm. i talked to a HR person for a company in Alabama and the FIRST question he asked me was if my consultants were native english speakers. Is that discrimination or a valid qualification?

 

[Hooligan]

i just read up on that article and i came away a bit confused (i've been trying to work on my biochem labs). apparently, it seems that the military practices AA but has been more successful because they've been able to use racial preferences, yet continue to keep their performance high? if that's the case the article never completely lists why the schools have failed with AA while the military has.

sorry for the slow response, my roommate got me talking about AA.

 

[Hooligan]

i'm leaving, i think the racists are here.

 

[DJFuji]

Originally posted by: ChineseSkaterNoRice

Originally posted by: DJ Fuji
Just spent the last hour and a half reading through this entire post. And i wonder why i don't have any time anymore. =)

I think all success should be merit-based. You should get the job or position based on your success and accomplishments, not on your background. Yes, minorities or people of lower socioeconomic class are at times at a disadvantage. But how do you think spud webb or mugsy felt when they first started playing basketball? I'm not a huge follower of the sport, but i've never heard them say they want 3 points for a layup because they're "disadvantaged." At times, the athletic world is a good microcosm of what society should look towards. There is relatively no race or socioeconomic levels in sports. The best man wins. That's how it should be.

In high school, there were a few kids on my wrestling team a few weight classes up who had wrestled since they were 6. Of course, they made the varsity team relatively early. I didn't hear the JV guys saying "well he came from a 'wrestling' family and i didn't so i deserve special consideration." Yes, that kid did have an advantage. But again, we come to the point of the best man wins. The ONLY time AA or the like should have ANY relevance is if two candidates are IDENTICAL in qualifications. At that point, i think the edge goes to the poor and homeless kid who walked to school and worked twice as hard to get his straight A's or equivalent successes.

On the other hand, i find it sad that many black parents raise their children to think that "the Man is oppressing us." Of course, other minorities are guilty of this as well, but i see it most often in african americans. The problem with this is that you start an attitude of "the world owes me something" that naturally rationalizes subpar performance. Then you pass this to your children, who pass this on to their children, and the vicious cycle never stops until one generation realizes that this attitude isn't getting them anywhere. That's when you get minorities who excel, despite their upbringing and class.

Unfortunately, these minorities are then shunned by those less fortunate, and labeled as "white washed." They are transformed into an entity of "the man" by their own people because they have overcome what others could not. If their people would embrace success and overcoming obstacles, maybe more of them would undertake this kind of goal.

In my opinion, darkstar757 is a product of his upbringing. I seriously doubt that he has come up with most of these ideals solely from his societal observations. The same way my ideals of "you reap what you sow" comes from my parents' ideals. In this way, yes, he is at a disadvantage. By human nature, he is less inclined to feel that he should work harder to achieve success. And his race is definitely discriminated against, as are most other minorities.

But the point is, you won't get anywhere bitching and worrying about things you can't change. Even if the government can be persuaded to give you handouts or preferential treatment based on your race, you'll only increase the disdain with which others look at you when they see that you couldn't make it on your own. And ultimately, you'll never reach the levels of success that those who truly work for it will. The govt may give you preferential treatment at times, but it WON'T skyrocket you to success. The only thing that will do THAT is what's already been said: diligence, dedication, and hard work.

you do realize that the armed forces have been one of the greatest forces in the promotion and execution of AA policies? by the way, what about my arguments.

Chineseskater, here's an example that just came to mind. I am a Corporal in the United States Marine Corps. A non-commissioned officer who is part of a long tradition of leaders that make up the backbone of the Marine Corps. My estimated date of separation from the Marine Corps is July of 2004 (end of my active duty contract). Lately I've been approached and encouraged to "put in a package" for selection to the officer ranks where i'll start as a lieutenant. People have told me that "it'll be cake because the Marine Corps wants asians in their officer ranks." This to me, is racial preference and i do not agree with it. It's one of the reasons i will not submit a package to become an officer. At least as an NCO i'll know that i EARNED my place among them.

 

[Emveach]

Originally posted by: Darkstar757

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Darkstar757 That comment did not imply all whites had slaves just the vast majority. Also most white do have more money passed down to them than minorities its a fact. Not my fault you werent one of them. Just stating a fact.

"most whites do have more money passed down to them" ?? Dude, you live in a fantasy world. In the US, "most whites" live in trailer parks or poor neighborhoods and get nothing. I recognized this problem years ago. 40-50 years ago, some proud and noble black people fought for civil rights and equality and won. The next generation came around and found out what equality really means in America. You get nothing except opportunity. Now get to fscking work, quit crying, make use of that opportunity, and quit demanding handouts, ok? It's getting old.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Im not crying im doing quite well but it because of AA that helped me. I wouldnt have the job I have now if it wasnt for AA.

So you got a job that you were underqualified for at the expense of someone else who worked harder for that position. You should feel so proud.

 

[DJFuji]

Originally posted by: gururu

How woud YOU feel if you were turned down for a position because some less qualified student or applicant was of a different race

I worked in the pharmaceutical industry before grad school, and I've personally seen less qualified white applicants get promoted before more qualified asians, blacks and hispanics. In those settings, caucasians were embraced by the older white upper management.
In one company, something very funny actually happened. The company was bought out by a Japanese company called Otsuka (Pocari Sweat). After a few months, half the upper management was dismissed and replaced with young Japanese graduates that needed to have asistants that spoke english. I had a good Japanese buddy who during that time revelled in the new coup.

racism and discrimination, no matter the victim or the target, is wrong. You can't try to "patch it up" with AA. You need to fix the source of the problem, not troubleshoot & patch the symptoms. As the famous quote goes "two wrongs dont make a right." You can't fight discrimination with more reverse discrimination.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: DJ Fuji

Originally posted by: gururu

How woud YOU feel if you were turned down for a position because some less qualified student or applicant was of a different race

I worked in the pharmaceutical industry before grad school, and I've personally seen less qualified white applicants get promoted before more qualified asians, blacks and hispanics. In those settings, caucasians were embraced by the older white upper management.
In one company, something very funny actually happened. The company was bought out by a Japanese company called Otsuka (Pocari Sweat). After a few months, half the upper management was dismissed and replaced with young Japanese graduates that needed to have asistants that spoke english. I had a good Japanese buddy who during that time revelled in the new coup.

racism and discrimination, no matter the victim or the target, is wrong. You can't try to "patch it up" with AA. You need to fix the source of the problem, not troubleshoot & patch the symptoms. As the famous quote goes "two wrongs dont make a right." You can't fight discrimination with more reverse discrimination.

is it racism for japanese management to hire japanese speaking employees in middle management? is making language proficiency a requirement for a management position racism??

i would consider it a valid qualification for the position. not racism but a logical choice.

 

[DJFuji]

I was referring to racism in the general sense, not in reference to that example. Yes, language requirements are a perfectly legitimate requirement. My point was that Gururu seems to think that AA is the answer to racism and discrimination, when in reality, it only adds fuel to the fire.

 

[Dudd]

Originally posted by: gururu
I worked in the pharmaceutical industry before grad school, and I've personally seen less qualified white applicants get promoted before more qualified asians, blacks and hispanics. In those settings, caucasians were embraced by the older white upper management.

You kmow what? Under federal law, that is illegal. You can't bypass someone simply because of race, overlooking others who aren't in that race. Yet, if the roles were reversed and minorities were promoted before more qualified whites, that's empowering them and making up for injustice. IMO, both situations are wrong and everything should be based on qualifications, not race.

 

[Darkstar757]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Darkstar757

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Darkstar757 That comment did not imply all whites had slaves just the vast majority. Also most white do have more money passed down to them than minorities its a fact. Not my fault you werent one of them. Just stating a fact.

"most whites do have more money passed down to them" ?? Dude, you live in a fantasy world. In the US, "most whites" live in trailer parks or poor neighborhoods and get nothing. I recognized this problem years ago. 40-50 years ago, some proud and noble black people fought for civil rights and equality and won. The next generation came around and found out what equality really means in America. You get nothing except opportunity. Now get to fscking work, quit crying, make use of that opportunity, and quit demanding handouts, ok? It's getting old.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Im not crying im doing quite well but it because of AA that helped me. I wouldnt have the job I have now if it wasnt for AA.

and your PROUD of that??

that's disgusting to say.

The BIGGEST problem with the "BLACKS" in america is the teenage pregnancy issue. Family structures are the SINGLE most important factor in determining a persons success. AA don't mean SH!T if the person doesn't have a decent family structure to support him, are there EXCEPTIONS to this generalization, YES, but in general is it true, YES.

Stop with the AA nonsense and FORCE people to take responsibility for their actions. STOP with the teenage pregnancy, STOP with the gangs, STOP with the drug dealing, STOP with killing of your own people. STOP pretending that you don't have a chance because your black, THAT'S NONSENSE. THE REASON you don't have a chance is because YOU BOUGHT into this black people DESERVE a chance NONSENSE.

OMFG, this issue pisses me off more than any other single issue discussed on AT.

Inner city schools aren't bad because they don't have money. YOU DON'T NEED MONEY, COMPUTERS, FANCY CLASSROOMS, HIGH PRICED TEACHERS or ANY of that crap to teach your kids READING, WRITING and ARITHMATIC. UNTIL you've proven that you can teach your kids the BASICS stop trying to pretend that throwing money at the problem will resolve it. IT'S NOT A MONEY ISSUE.

I could teach my kids at home, teach them BASICS and I could get my kids in COLLEGE. AP IS NOT REQUIRED to get kids into COLLEGE, JUST BASICS.

If you can't even teach your kids the basics don't come crying to me about discrimination.

YO ARE A HATTER POINT BLANK!!!


END OF STORY. I BET you have NEVER EVEN SPENT A HOUR IN THE PROJECTS. NORE WOULD YOU LAST with those feelings you have.

 

[Darkstar757]

PS WHY IN THIS thread do I feel like im only flaming with a bunch of white males.


Can I get some other Black males or Native Americans views.


Oh wait most Black and Native Americans DONT HAVE INTERNET ACCESS!!!!!

 

[LeeTJ]

ya, i'm a hatter.

If i were indeed a HATER I wouldn't waste my time posting because the black community is doing a FINE and dandy job of destroying itself.

I grew up in Georgia in the early 70's. When my parents first moved we had to move to subsidized housing because they had nothing. they moved to the US with $500.00 in their pockets. We lived in government subsidized apartments, not sure if that qualifies for your definition of GHETTO, but it's close enough for government work.

We got OUT of the ghetto because my mom worked 2 full time jobs and my dad worked a Full time Job and a part time job (starting a church). Don't tell me what i DO and DO NOT KNOW.

My dad started a church and eventually got a full time position as a pastor. Our church is part of a collection of churches. The particular "Conference" that my dads church belonged to was a "Regional" conference (otherwise known as a "Black" conference, in other words 99% of the churches in this conference were black churches). We went with our dad to "Camp meetings" held by these "regional" conferences where my brother, sister and I were the only NON black kids. So don't tell me what i do and DO not know about black people.

I have LOTS and LOTS of black friends and MOST of them agree with me.

it's funny because you stereotype me and call me a "hatter"

without know anything about me.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Darkstar757
PS WHY IN THIS thread do I feel like im only flaming with a bunch of white males.


Can I get some other Black males or Native Americans views.


Oh wait most Black and Native Americans DONT HAVE INTERNET ACCESS!!!!!

and WHO's FAULT is that?? are you saying AOL won't give access to blacks and Native Americans?

btw, I'm not WHITE, i'm ASIAN.

 

[DJFuji]

actually, blackstar, i feel for you because you're debating with a bunch of asians and whites, neither of which will generally agree with your point of view. White people will think that AA is detrimental because it may result in a less qualified minority taking his job. Asians are not sympathetic to your plight because they generally get screwed by AA. That's what happens when you have a >50% population at schools like UnivCalif Irvine. But then again, you're on a TECHNICAL FORUM-- who did you THINK you would be talking to? That's like me going to the projects and debating about how great white people are. I dont think i'd get a very good response there.

LeeTJ is not a man of tact, as you can see, but he has some valid points. Unfortunately, blacks (or anyone else for that matter) will not listen rationally to someone who is essentially attacking them. Human nature makes us bring up shields to defend ourselves and block open and rational thought. But i have a feeling that LeeTJ is merely ranting; he isnt consciously trying to invoke change in the black race.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: DJ Fuji
actually, blackstar, i feel for you because you're debating with a bunch of asians and whites, neither of which will generally agree with your point of view. White people will think that AA is detrimental because it may result in a less qualified minority taking his job. Asians are not sympathetic to your plight because they generally get screwed by AA. That's what happens when you have a >50% population at schools like UnivCalif Irvine. But then again, you're on a TECHNICAL FORUM-- who did you THINK you would be talking to? That's like me going to the projects and debating about how great white people are. I dont think i'd get a very good response there.

LeeTJ is not a man of tact, as you can see, but he has some valid points. Unfortunately, blacks (or anyone else for that matter) will not listen rationally to someone who is essentially attacking them. Human nature makes us bring up shields to defend ourselves and block open and rational thought. But i have a feeling that LeeTJ is merely ranting; he isnt consciously trying to invoke change in the black race.

and the rhetoric we see by politicians has been effective in affecting change?

sometimes the truth has to be spoken nontactfully. it's the only chance of getting thru.

 

[rufruf44]

Originally posted by: Darkstar757

YO ARE A HATTER POINT BLANK!!!


END OF STORY. I BET you have NEVER EVEN SPENT A HOUR IN THE PROJECTS. NORE WOULD YOU LAST with those feelings you have.

Ah, the same old pathetic and self-serving argument. If you're not black then you know nothing about discrimination.

Black people like you who feels entitled to something that they aren't are exactly what AA will kept promoting.

 

[DJFuji]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: DJ Fuji
actually, blackstar, i feel for you because you're debating with a bunch of asians and whites, neither of which will generally agree with your point of view. White people will think that AA is detrimental because it may result in a less qualified minority taking his job. Asians are not sympathetic to your plight because they generally get screwed by AA. That's what happens when you have a >50% population at schools like UnivCalif Irvine. But then again, you're on a TECHNICAL FORUM-- who did you THINK you would be talking to? That's like me going to the projects and debating about how great white people are. I dont think i'd get a very good response there.

LeeTJ is not a man of tact, as you can see, but he has some valid points. Unfortunately, blacks (or anyone else for that matter) will not listen rationally to someone who is essentially attacking them. Human nature makes us bring up shields to defend ourselves and block open and rational thought. But i have a feeling that LeeTJ is merely ranting; he isnt consciously trying to invoke change in the black race.

and the rhetoric we see by politicians has been effective in affecting change?

sometimes the truth has to be spoken nontactfully. it's the only chance of getting thru.

True, but there's a difference between a lack of tact and ATTACKING someone. A lot of us have been less than tactful in approaching the issue. Most of the time you won't even HEAR politicians say anything about blacks. They'll merely allude to it by saying "the minorities." All of us are supposed to know what theyre talking about, but they are never specific enough. (you won't hear a politician say 'blacks need to stop raising their kids to think the world owes them something' without being labeled a racist) Most middle class white people are afraid to say what's on everyone's mind because theyre afraid people will scream racism. But that doesnt mean they cant address the issue in a rational, non-antagonistic manner. (even if it isnt exactly PC)

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: rufruf44

Originally posted by: Darkstar757

YO ARE A HATTER POINT BLANK!!!


END OF STORY. I BET you have NEVER EVEN SPENT A HOUR IN THE PROJECTS. NORE WOULD YOU LAST with those feelings you have.

Ah, the same old pathetic and self-serving argument. If you're not black then you know nothing about discrimination.

Black people like you who feels entitled to something that they aren't are exactly what AA will kept promoting.

thank you.

that argument is soo representative of how black people feel. they really do believe that they are the only people in the US discriminated against. there are many black leaders who feel that Asians shouldn't be considered MINORITIES. they miss the hypocrisy of discriminating against the very people they claim shouldn't be considered a "minority".

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by: gururu
I think most of you arguing against AA will be happy to know the following:

UW Madison: My department.

No black professors
No hispanic professors
No asian professors
No black post-docs
No hispanic post-docs
No black grad students
1 hispanic grad student (me)
5 asian grad students
51 white grad students

so tell me, do you think my dept. has an AA program or not?

First off, you don't tell the number of total professors/post-docs. So saying "no black, no hispanic, no asian..." is worthless. If the total number of professors is...say, 2, it certainly would not be out of the ordinary to not have any minority persons in the group.

Second, including indian and asian in your totals in an attempt to show that AA would increase these numbers is simply wrong. AA does nothing for these groups.

Third, any study of the population within a particular study needs to take in account the area of study itself. Which, notably, you don't mention. Some studies tend to have higher levels in interest to particular ethnic/racial groups.

Fourth, you need to look at the demographics of both the school and the state. Some facts as it relates to your argument:


In the state of wisconin:
89% of people are white.
5.7% are black
1.7% are asian
3.6% hispanic
1.6% are "other".

At the UW madison:
1.9% Black (non-Hispanic)
4.1% Asian or Pacific Islander
2.2% Hispanic
87.6% White (non-Hispanic)


Now, 62% of students come from in-state. Approx. 4% are international students. That leaves about 35% of students left. From that percentage, the majority of out of state students come from the midwest, traditionally more "white" than the rest of the nation. (I am unable to find a state by state breakdown, if there even is one).

Do I need to do the math for you? If so, maybe you do need AA!

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: Darkstar757

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Darkstar757

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Darkstar757 That comment did not imply all whites had slaves just the vast majority. Also most white do have more money passed down to them than minorities its a fact. Not my fault you werent one of them. Just stating a fact.

"most whites do have more money passed down to them" ?? Dude, you live in a fantasy world. In the US, "most whites" live in trailer parks or poor neighborhoods and get nothing. I recognized this problem years ago. 40-50 years ago, some proud and noble black people fought for civil rights and equality and won. The next generation came around and found out what equality really means in America. You get nothing except opportunity. Now get to fscking work, quit crying, make use of that opportunity, and quit demanding handouts, ok? It's getting old.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Im not crying im doing quite well but it because of AA that helped me. I wouldnt have the job I have now if it wasnt for AA.

and your PROUD of that?? that's disgusting to say. The BIGGEST problem with the "BLACKS" in america is the teenage pregnancy issue. Family structures are the SINGLE most important factor in determining a persons success. AA don't mean SH!T if the person doesn't have a decent family structure to support him, are there EXCEPTIONS to this generalization, YES, but in general is it true, YES. Stop with the AA nonsense and FORCE people to take responsibility for their actions. STOP with the teenage pregnancy, STOP with the gangs, STOP with the drug dealing, STOP with killing of your own people. STOP pretending that you don't have a chance because your black, THAT'S NONSENSE. THE REASON you don't have a chance is because YOU BOUGHT into this black people DESERVE a chance NONSENSE. OMFG, this issue pisses me off more than any other single issue discussed on AT. Inner city schools aren't bad because they don't have money. YOU DON'T NEED MONEY, COMPUTERS, FANCY CLASSROOMS, HIGH PRICED TEACHERS or ANY of that crap to teach your kids READING, WRITING and ARITHMATIC. UNTIL you've proven that you can teach your kids the BASICS stop trying to pretend that throwing money at the problem will resolve it. IT'S NOT A MONEY ISSUE. I could teach my kids at home, teach them BASICS and I could get my kids in COLLEGE. AP IS NOT REQUIRED to get kids into COLLEGE, JUST BASICS. If you can't even teach your kids the basics don't come crying to me about discrimination.

YO ARE A HATTER POINT BLANK!!! END OF STORY. I BET you have NEVER EVEN SPENT A HOUR IN THE PROJECTS. NORE WOULD YOU LAST with those feelings you have.

Most black people haven't spent an hour in the projects either, you're generalizing.

 

[Lucky]

Perhaps what you are saying is lets find a black who totally agress with getting rid of AA.


Not going to happen. Im very sorry alot of you hate me know.

Uh, clarence thomas? Oh wait, is he not "black enough" for you?

 

[Lucky]

Im not crying im doing quite well but it because of AA that helped me. I wouldnt have the job I have now if it wasnt for AA.

Naturally. It's hard for lazy, self-righteous, I-deserve-a-handout people with entitlement mentalities to get a decent job otherwise.

Especially when you talk like this:

YO ARE A HATTER POINT BLANK!!!

hahaha

Oh wait most Black and Native Americans DONT HAVE INTERNET ACCESS!!!!!

Everyone in this country has internet access. It's called the library. Even my ghetto-ass sister city Benton Harbor michigan has internet access.

 

[Mustangrrl]

This is exactly why I believe 12 year olds shouldn't be given a computer and internet access.

I could tell you why your argument is ridiculous, but I believe my forummates have done a pretty damn good job doing so.