Affirmative Action - Get rid of it...work for a living!

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LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Originally posted by: Mustangrrl
This is exactly why I believe 12 year olds shouldn't be given a computer and internet access.
rolleye.gif
I could tell you why your argument is ridiculous, but I believe my forummates have done a pretty damn good job doing so.

and who might you be referring to?
 

Syringer

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
19,333
2
71
Originally posted by: Syringer
*yawn* blacks were enslaved, yadda yadda.

Can someone explain why HISPANIC people benefit just as greatly from AA as blacks do? While a group that was practically enslaved even after the blacks were freed, that being the Chinese, stand to be at a huge disadvantage from AA?

 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
....because this country has a historically long laundry list of suppressing and abusing slave and immigrant labor.
Let's get something straight right now.....slave and immigrant labor was used/abused by a very small population of rich and powerful people...NOT THE MASSES!.....and not this country, and remember that racism exists EVERYWHERE, in EVERY COUNTRY.....but only in the U.S. is it popular to try and blame the White people for everyone elses problems and expect some kind of special treatment for sins of the past.
 

WinkOsmosis

Banned
Sep 18, 2002
13,990
1
0
Originally posted by: Ronstang
....because this country has a historically long laundry list of suppressing and abusing slave and immigrant labor.
Let's get something straight right now.....slave and immigrant labor was used/abused by a very small population of rich and powerful people...NOT THE MASSES!.....and not this country, and remember that racism exists EVERYWHERE, in EVERY COUNTRY.....but only in the U.S. is it popular to try and blame the White people for everyone elses problems and expect some kind of special treatment for sins of the past.

Umm... the whole nation benefitted from slave labor.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
(IIRC) Didn't Africans enslave their own people too? I wonder if they're demanding reparations and programs like AA.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
Originally posted by: WinkOsmosis
Originally posted by: Ronstang
....because this country has a historically long laundry list of suppressing and abusing slave and immigrant labor.
Let's get something straight right now.....slave and immigrant labor was used/abused by a very small population of rich and powerful people...NOT THE MASSES!.....and not this country, and remember that racism exists EVERYWHERE, in EVERY COUNTRY.....but only in the U.S. is it popular to try and blame the White people for everyone elses problems and expect some kind of special treatment for sins of the past.

Umm... the whole nation benefitted from slave labor.
You missed the point.....read it again....I said used/abused, I said nothing of benefit and the average joe had no control over any slave or immigrant worker anyway. If you want to apply that kind of reasoning then the WHOLE WORLD benefitted since the U.S. grew up to be a great enough nation to save the free world during WWII.......and don't hand me the standard crap......THE BRITS WOULD HAVE FAILED ON THEIR OWN.
 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Originally posted by: rbloedow
(IIRC) Didn't Africans enslave their own people too? I wonder if they're demanding reparations and programs like AA.

to be more precise, Westerners didn't ENSLAVE anyone, they purchased slaves, people that had ALREADY been enslaved and they had been enslaved BY AFRICANS.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!

Make sure you get rid of all kinds of affirmative action for examples: nepotism and legacies.
 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!

Make sure you get rid of all kinds of affirmative action for examples: nepotism and legacies.

why don't we just get rid of free will while we're at it too.
rolleye.gif
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: LeeTJ
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!

Make sure you get rid of all kinds of affirmative action for examples: nepotism and legacies.

why don't we just get rid of free will while we're at it too.
rolleye.gif

???
Can you please explain your statement's relevance to my post.

 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: LeeTJ
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!

Make sure you get rid of all kinds of affirmative action for examples: nepotism and legacies.

why don't we just get rid of free will while we're at it too.
rolleye.gif

???
Can you please explain your statement's relevance to my post.

How else do you propose to get rid of nepotism and legacies? AA itself forces me to make choices i might otherwise NOT make as an employer. How far are we going to take this? Peoples choices are based on among other things predjudices and feelings. Are we going to continue to try and legislate that?

 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: LeeTJ
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: LeeTJ
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!

Make sure you get rid of all kinds of affirmative action for examples: nepotism and legacies.

why don't we just get rid of free will while we're at it too.
rolleye.gif

???
Can you please explain your statement's relevance to my post.

How else do you propose to get rid of nepotism and legacies? AA itself forces me to make choices i might otherwise NOT make as an employer. How far are we going to take this? Peoples choices are based on among other things predjudices and feelings. Are we going to continue to try and legislate that?

My point is that the people yelling the loudest against affirmative action have benefited from and are benefiting from it, having connections, nepotism, and legacies the most.
 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: LeeTJ
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: LeeTJ
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!

Make sure you get rid of all kinds of affirmative action for examples: nepotism and legacies.

why don't we just get rid of free will while we're at it too.
rolleye.gif

???
Can you please explain your statement's relevance to my post.

How else do you propose to get rid of nepotism and legacies? AA itself forces me to make choices i might otherwise NOT make as an employer. How far are we going to take this? Peoples choices are based on among other things predjudices and feelings. Are we going to continue to try and legislate that?

My point is that the people yelling the loudest against affirmative action have benefited from and are benefiting from it, having connections, nepotism, and legacies the most.

sorry, i can't agree with your premise that nepotism, connections and legacies are the same thing as AA. AA is legislation that forces us to make choices we might not necessarily make. Nepotism, connections and legacies are a big part of the way people make decisions. how are you goint to change that without taking away their free will?
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: LeeTJ
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: LeeTJ
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: LeeTJ
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!

Make sure you get rid of all kinds of affirmative action for examples: nepotism and legacies.

why don't we just get rid of free will while we're at it too.
rolleye.gif

???
Can you please explain your statement's relevance to my post.

How else do you propose to get rid of nepotism and legacies? AA itself forces me to make choices i might otherwise NOT make as an employer. How far are we going to take this? Peoples choices are based on among other things predjudices and feelings. Are we going to continue to try and legislate that?

My point is that the people yelling the loudest against affirmative action have benefited from and are benefiting from it, having connections, nepotism, and legacies the most.

sorry, i can't agree with your premise that nepotism, connections and legacies are the same thing as AA. AA is legislation that forces us to make choices we might not necessarily make. Nepotism, connections and legacies are a big part of the way people make decisions. how are you goint to change that without taking away their free will?

Is affirmative action always enforced by the legislation? No.

The company I worked for realized that upper management was hiring and promoting
mainly people like themselves. It became policy to have a work force that reflect the
makeup of the country.
This change in hiring policies was not forced by the government.
 

MrYogi

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2003
2,680
0
0
Affirmative Action in India
Education is great and cheap in India. It costs around $300 for three years of law school or four years of bachelors.
More than 70% seats in the colleges are reserved for backward communities. Socially backward but not economically backward.

For eg: Admissions into the schools are based on Tests like SAT. Ranks are given to the students(300,000) according to the scores they get in the tests. People could barely get into a medicine/engineering program with a rank of 1000. But you can find people who belonged to the backward community with ranks 50,000+ in the same class.
 

OulOat

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2002
5,769
0
0
Darkstar757 is the most racist person I have ever seen. First he bashes non-blacks, then he makes outrageous demands (50% black senate, HA. only 13% of the US is black). He can't understand a very simple fact: just because African-Americans had it bad doesn't mean other races didn't have it bad either. No one deserves anything, even the guy up top has to work his ass off some time or another. If someone threw you into a well, would you work your @ss off climbing out, or would you sit on your lazy @ss until someone pulls you up? I will bet anyone that Darkstar's answer will be that he will be sitting there until they build him a gem plated elevator, and then only if 4 white slaves carry him.

If someone can provide a good explanation to why Asians get boned by AA, then I will change my mind about AA. There are poor Asians, just like there are poor Africans. You can claim that a higher percentage of Africans are poor, but guess what, no one helped Asians climb out of that hole. Slavery is not a good excuse, since it doesn't apply to Hispanics. Plus, Asians were basically slaves too back then. Here's some facts about Chinese-American heritage.

-Gold Rush and Transcontinental Railroad. Many Chinese immigrated in search of a better life. Whites first welcomed the fresh supply of labor, but soon became worried about competition. Special taxes and laws are applied against the Chinese. Soon, anti-Chinese crusades become a monthly occurrence. "The Chinese Must Go!" becomes a household phrase.

-The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882: No more Chinese laborers (basically everyone) allowed in the US; existing immigrants are encouraged to leave. The Chinese are the only ethnic group ever denied entrance into the US. EVER. This leads to: prohibited by law to testify in court, to own property, to vote, to have families join them, to marry non-Chinese, and to work in institutional agencies. No Chinese were allow citizenship. Americans who had Chinese ancestry got their citizenship revoked.

-Chinatown: Not all Chinese want to live in Dai Fao (Big City - Chinatown, San Francisco). But it was the only place allowed by the American government that a Chinese can live. Basically, it was one big internment camp. But the Chinese found a way to survive and prosper. Even when an earthquake and fire on April 18, 1906 leveled Chinatown, it was a Chinese- "American" who paid to rebuilt the city, not the government. Ironically, because the immigration records got buried by the earthquake too, many Chinese were finally able to sneak in children and wives.

-Angel Island (1910 - 1940) : A island made for housing and interrogation of Chinese immigrants. Average stay is 2 weeks, longest is 22 months. Adults were separated from children. Each person were interrogated alone. Rejectees (the majority) were sent back to China, even if the family has to be broken apart.

-December 17, 1943, 60 years of legalized racism comes to an end as President Roosevelt signed the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion Act due to the Second World War.

This is only a few difficulties faced by the Chinese; I don't even have an idea how bad it must have been for the Japanese and other races. My dad came here 15 years ago, alone, a student, with $300 dollars in his pocket, now we own a $300,000 house. Did he ever receive any handouts? No. Did he ever beg for one? No. Did he ever quit dreaming that one day his entire family can enjoy a life here in the US? Never. He work hard, he worked smart, and now he reap the rewards.

I think Chris Rock said it the best ?I love black people, but I hate n!ggers. It's like our own personal civil war. On the one side, there's black people. On the other side, you've got n!ggers. The n!ggers have got to go. Every time black people want to have a good time, n!ggers mess it up. You can't do anything without some ignorant-@ss n!ggers fvcking it up.?
 

gururu

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
2,402
0
0
So many people miss the point. Remove the haze and stop blowing smoke. I've made three points in this thread, each of which seems to have gone right over the head of most posters.
1: Read the monopoly analogy
Minorities own less property and other assets than non-minorities. Seems logical? sure, their minorities. Except when you consider that they got srewed out of the land they used to own. (eg. Much of the property in the lower haight district of san francisco was owned by black folk in the 50's and 60's. Hard times forced them to mortgage or sell to banks that immediately raised rent levels, keeping that whole community in destitution to this day)

2: Read the stats on UW Madison
the point that was so frequently missed was that there is no threat in this typical situation to white admissions, whether AA is imposed or not. The greatest competition against an incoming student is their other white classmates. Nobody complains about the athletic admissions who most of the time have inferior academic aptitude. As always, its the minorities that get blamed. ALWAYS. It doesn't bother me,its just true, and so many people here perpetuate the bitching about minorities.
It demonstrates the insecurity of the white world against minorities because they still don't trust them or refuse to accept them or understand them.

3: Read my job example
racism was clearly exercised in this example of a professional environment. First by whites then by Japanese. the fact that the company was overtaken by japanese is rare, and i thought it was interesting being there to experience it. The truth is that other companies I have worked for were perfect examples of racism by whites as well. Some illustriously pointed out that the promotions were deserved because of language and social considerations. Wrong. Its because older white people are more comfortable taking out their white employees to lunch, to parties, to dinner, etc.. The networking starts and the promotions are given. In the Japanese takeover case, the replacements were made because they realized that the company was top heavy with a bunch of old white bosses that didn't do anything but blow smoke all day. They actually saved the company.

In sum, minorities are not on a level playing field with whites. Even if they grow up under similar environmental conditions, once they reach the academic and professional arenas, the field gives whites the advantage. I've never argued that AA is the way to fix it, to make it equal. In fact, I've argued that it could never make it equal. Rather, I've tried to maintain some objectivity in understanding that steps should be taken to help anyone better there lives. Instead of AA, I'd love to see money flow into the academic institutions in my community so that more minority kids FEEL the opportunities. And then AA can get discarded. AA is kind of a half assed attempt by the white establishment to employ restitution. So all of you who dismiss AA should lobby your senators for better, more worthwhile solutions that can affect the educational programs in all communities, whether white or black. But when you bitch about minorities this, minorities that, you sound like a bunch of children. When you use foul language and personal distaste in your writing, you sound like a bunch of ignorant racists.
and I know you are not, because I can empathize with your frustration, I just wished we'd be a little more objective, open-minded.
 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Originally posted by: gururu
So many people miss the point. Remove the haze and stop blowing smoke. I've made three points in this thread, each of which seems to have gone right over the head of most posters.
1: Read the monopoly analogy
Minorities own less property and other assets than non-minorities. Seems logical? sure, their minorities. Except when you consider that they got srewed out of the land they used to own. (eg. Much of the property in the lower haight district of san francisco was owned by black folk in the 50's and 60's. Hard times forced them to mortgage or sell to banks that immediately raised rent levels, keeping that whole community in destitution to this day)

they are in destitution because they don't make an effort to get out of a bad situation. don't just blame it on one period of time, many immigrants came to this country with nothing more than the clothes on their back and they didn't stay in destitution.

3: Read my job example
racism was clearly exercised in this example of a professional environment. First by whites then by Japanese. the fact that the company was overtaken by japanese is rare, and i thought it was interesting being there to experience it. The truth is that other companies I have worked for were perfect examples of racism by whites as well. Some illustriously pointed out that the promotions were deserved because of language and social considerations. Wrong. Its because older white people are more comfortable taking out their white employees to lunch, to parties, to dinner, etc.. The networking starts and the promotions are given. In the Japanese takeover case, the replacements were made because they realized that the company was top heavy with a bunch of old white bosses that didn't do anything but blow smoke all day. They actually saved the company.

In sum, minorities are not on a level playing field with whites. Even if they grow up under similar environmental conditions, once they reach the academic and professional arenas, the field gives whites the advantage. I've never argued that AA is the way to fix it, to make it equal. In fact, I've argued that it could never make it equal. Rather, I've tried to maintain some objectivity in understanding that steps should be taken to help anyone better there lives. Instead of AA, I'd love to see money flow into the academic institutions in my community so that more minority kids FEEL the opportunities. And then AA can get discarded. AA is kind of a half assed attempt by the white establishment to employ restitution. So all of you who dismiss AA should lobby your senators for better, more worthwhile solutions that can affect the educational programs in all communities, whether white or black. But when you bitch about minorities this, minorities that, you sound like a bunch of children. When you use foul language and personal distaste in your writing, you sound like a bunch of ignorant racists.
and I know you are not, because I can empathize with your frustration, I just wished we'd be a little more objective, open-minded.

I am racist, so what. it doesn't change the picture, AA has not worked. IT hasn't significantly changed income distribution in the US. it isn't just a stereotype to say that a lot of black people are poor and live in the ghettos.

i just disagree with the entire premise of AA and desegregation.
 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Does anyone else see the hypocrisy and irony of going around calling people "RACISTS"??

it's just another label, another stereotype.
rolleye.gif
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
1
0
2: Read the stats on UW Madison


I did, apparently you didn't. I posted a detailed analysis of how your post was flawed, yet you completely gloss over it, summarize that i'm just "missing the point", and then throw out someone that had nothing to do with your original post. Odd, that.
 

BatmanNate

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
12,444
2
81
Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!

:beer:
 

negatv

Senior member
Dec 3, 2000
787
0
76
Originally posted by: Ronstang
....because this country has a historically long laundry list of suppressing and abusing slave and immigrant labor.
Let's get something straight right now.....slave and immigrant labor was used/abused by a very small population of rich and powerful people...NOT THE MASSES!.....and not this country, and remember that racism exists EVERYWHERE, in EVERY COUNTRY.....but only in the U.S. is it popular to try and blame the White people for everyone elses problems and expect some kind of special treatment for sins of the past.


And how exactly do you think that these "rich and powerful" people became rich and powerful? If Ford Motor Company could get away with enslaving their workers and not pay them for their work (or any medical benefits of any kind), I would imagine they could be even more profitable. (And wouldn't have to move their "jobs" to Mexico for cheaper labor).

The point is, people think that making reparations for the past is wrong because "You weren't a slave! That was a long time ago!" Well, under that rationale - all of the "old-money" fortunes that was made off of slave labor and passed down the generations should also have to be forfeited.

It's easy to say go out and work hard and make something for yourself. If all things equal at birth, that would be a great concept. Unfortunately, some people get screwed.

Some people are born on third base, and think they hit a triple.
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
1
0
It's easy to say go out and work hard and make something for yourself. If all things equal at birth, that would be a great concept. Unfortunately, some people get screwed.


Yes, that's true. However the problem is socioeconomic in nature, not racial.