Affirmative Action - Get rid of it...work for a living!

[eternalpeace]

wow... touchy subject.

I was way too lazy to sort through the flame, but I can't resist adding my opinion.

I am AGAINST affirmative action because parts of it calls for making decisions based on race. Not only does the current AA policy "reverse" discriminate against whites, it also discriminates against other minorities.

Namely Asian Americans. Asians don't get any special recognition from AA. Even though they are minorities, they aren't "underrepresented" in the academic world. And even though they are OFTEN discriminated against in society, they aren't helped simply because they have worked hard enough to "make it" without aid. What about those Asian kids who grew up just as disadvantaged as Blacks, Latinos and Native Americans?

Not to say that people of any race should get help to make it into school. I am proud that I got into college on my own merits, and I would feel pretty bad if I knew that I was given a better chance to get in simply because of my race.

I am all for taking account of social and economic conditions when considering admission, I just don't think we should automatically assume that race A will be more disadvantaged than race B.

 

[tokamak]

it'd be cool if people put political posts in the politics forum

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by: tokamak
it'd be cool if people put political posts in the politics forum

yeah, it would

 

[DJFuji]

Just spent the last hour and a half reading through this entire post. And i wonder why i don't have any time anymore. =)

I think all success should be merit-based. You should get the job or position based on your success and accomplishments, not on your background. Yes, minorities or people of lower socioeconomic class are at times at a disadvantage. But how do you think spud webb or mugsy felt when they first started playing basketball? I'm not a huge follower of the sport, but i've never heard them say they want 3 points for a layup because they're "disadvantaged." At times, the athletic world is a good microcosm of what society should look towards. There is relatively no race or socioeconomic levels in sports. The best man wins. That's how it should be.

In high school, there were a few kids on my wrestling team a few weight classes up who had wrestled since they were 6. Of course, they made the varsity team relatively early. I didn't hear the JV guys saying "well he came from a 'wrestling' family and i didn't so i deserve special consideration." Yes, that kid did have an advantage. But again, we come to the point of the best man wins. The ONLY time AA or the like should have ANY relevance is if two candidates are IDENTICAL in qualifications. At that point, i think the edge goes to the poor and homeless kid who walked to school and worked twice as hard to get his straight A's or equivalent successes.

On the other hand, i find it sad that many black parents raise their children to think that "the Man is oppressing us." Of course, other minorities are guilty of this as well, but i see it most often in african americans. The problem with this is that you start an attitude of "the world owes me something" that naturally rationalizes subpar performance. Then you pass this to your children, who pass this on to their children, and the vicious cycle never stops until one generation realizes that this attitude isn't getting them anywhere. That's when you get minorities who excel, despite their upbringing and class.

Unfortunately, these minorities are then shunned by those less fortunate, and labeled as "white washed." They are transformed into an entity of "the man" by their own people because they have overcome what others could not. If their people would embrace success and overcoming obstacles, maybe more of them would undertake this kind of goal.

In my opinion, darkstar757 is a product of his upbringing. I seriously doubt that he has come up with most of these ideals solely from his societal observations. The same way my ideals of "you reap what you sow" comes from my parents' ideals. In this way, yes, he is at a disadvantage. By human nature, he is less inclined to feel that he should work harder to achieve success. And his race is definitely discriminated against, as are most other minorities.

But the point is, you won't get anywhere bitching and worrying about things you can't change. Even if the government can be persuaded to give you handouts or preferential treatment based on your race, you'll only increase the disdain with which others look at you when they see that you couldn't make it on your own. And ultimately, you'll never reach the levels of success that those who truly work for it will. The govt may give you preferential treatment at times, but it WON'T skyrocket you to success. The only thing that will do THAT is what's already been said: diligence, dedication, and hard work.

 

Wow. I really, really couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by: DJ Fuji
Just spent the last hour and a half reading through this entire post. And i wonder why i don't have any time anymore. =)

I think all success should be merit-based. You should get the job or position based on your success and accomplishments, not on your background. Yes, minorities or people of lower socioeconomic class are at times at a disadvantage. But how do you think spud webb or mugsy felt when they first started playing basketball? I'm not a huge follower of the sport, but i've never heard them say they want 3 points for a layup because they're "disadvantaged." At times, the athletic world is a good microcosm of what society should look towards. There is relatively no race or socioeconomic levels in sports. The best man wins. That's how it should be.

In high school, there were a few kids on my wrestling team a few weight classes up who had wrestled since they were 6. Of course, they made the varsity team relatively early. I didn't hear the JV guys saying "well he came from a 'wrestling' family and i didn't so i deserve special consideration." Yes, that kid did have an advantage. But again, we come to the point of the best man wins. The ONLY time AA or the like should have ANY relevance is if two candidates are IDENTICAL in qualifications. At that point, i think the edge goes to the poor and homeless kid who walked to school and worked twice as hard to get his straight A's or equivalent successes.

On the other hand, i find it sad that many black parents raise their children to think that "the Man is oppressing us." Of course, other minorities are guilty of this as well, but i see it most often in african americans. The problem with this is that you start an attitude of "the world owes me something" that naturally rationalizes subpar performance. Then you pass this to your children, who pass this on to their children, and the vicious cycle never stops until one generation realizes that this attitude isn't getting them anywhere. That's when you get minorities who excel, despite their upbringing and class.

Unfortunately, these minorities are then shunned by those less fortunate, and labeled as "white washed." They are transformed into an entity of "the man" by their own people because they have overcome what others could not. If their people would embrace success and overcoming obstacles, maybe more of them would undertake this kind of goal.

In my opinion, darkstar757 is a product of his upbringing. I seriously doubt that he has come up with most of these ideals solely from his societal observations. The same way my ideals of "you reap what you sow" comes from my parents' ideals. In this way, yes, he is at a disadvantage. By human nature, he is less inclined to feel that he should work harder to achieve success. And his race is definitely discriminated against, as are most other minorities.

But the point is, you won't get anywhere bitching and worrying about things you can't change. Even if the government can be persuaded to give you handouts or preferential treatment based on your race, you'll only increase the disdain with which others look at you when they see that you couldn't make it on your own. And ultimately, you'll never reach the levels of success that those who truly work for it will. The govt may give you preferential treatment at times, but it WON'T skyrocket you to success. The only thing that will do THAT is what's already been said: diligence, dedication, and hard work.

you do realize that the armed forces have been one of the greatest forces in the promotion and execution of AA policies? by the way, what about my arguments.

 

[Hooligan]

Colin Powell is a direct beneficiary of AA and has supported AA in spite of George W. Bush's attacks.

 

[Dragnov]

I'm not pro-AA but I'm not against AA either.

I think both sides can cry me TWO rivers!

 

[Hooligan]

it's true that we have to resort to ideas like this to promote equality

 

Originally posted by: ChineseSkaterNoRice
Colin Powell is a direct beneficiary of AA and has supported AA in spite of George W. Bush's attacks.

Yeah, this is exactly what we want from affirmative action:

Yes, Colin Powell benefited from affirmative action. But the military has a good kind of affirmative action, which expands equal opportunity without making racial preferences. She offers as an example Powell's promotion to brigadier general by President Carter's Secretary of the Army Clifford Alexander. When originally sent an all-white list of candidates for the position, Alexander rejected it, demanding a list that included some blacks. From the revised list, Alexander chose Powell.

 

[Cyberian]

Originally posted by: ChineseSkaterNoRice

you do realize that the armed forces have been one of the greatest forces in the promotion and execution of AA policies? by the way, what about my arguments.

This is news to me, but I have been out of the military for quite some time.
Could you explain further?

 

[DJFuji]

before i post, i'm going to apologize & say that i mean no disrespect in the following...

The that irritates me the most is the AA / "the world owes me something" attitude.

the SECOND most irritating thing is stereotypes. Like, for example, the stereotype that because i'm in the military, that i'm a) stupid, b) a robot, and c) a representative of the entire armed forces who accepts, condones, and embraces all manner of things thereunto pertaining. People act like the entire Dept of Defense personally consults me before they make a decision so that their decision will accurately reflect my philosophies. Contrary to this opinion, i am NOT a robot, and i do NOT agree with every single decision or idea that originates from the dept of defense.

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by: DJ Fuji
before i post, i'm going to apologize say that i mean no disrespect in the following...

The that irritates me the most is the AA / "the world owes me something" attitude.

the SECOND most irritating thing is stereotypes. Like, for example, the stereotype that because i'm in the military, that i'm a) stupid, b) a robot, and c) a representative of the entire armed forces who accepts, condones, and embraces all manner of things thereunto pertaining. People act like the entire Dept of Defense personally consults me before they make a decision so that their decision will accurately reflect my philosophies. Contrary to this opinion, i am NOT a robot, and i do NOT agree with every single decision or idea that originates from the dept of defense.

haha, i agree and no disrespect intended in my question either.

 

[Hooligan]

Originally posted by: Cyberian

Originally posted by: ChineseSkaterNoRice

you do realize that the armed forces have been one of the greatest forces in the promotion and execution of AA policies? by the way, what about my arguments.

This is news to me, but I have been out of the military for quite some time.
Could you explain further?

i'm not entirely read up on the issue either, but from what i understand AA has been used by the military for sometime.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Darkstar757

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Darkstar757 That comment did not imply all whites had slaves just the vast majority. Also most white do have more money passed down to them than minorities its a fact. Not my fault you werent one of them. Just stating a fact.

"most whites do have more money passed down to them" ?? Dude, you live in a fantasy world. In the US, "most whites" live in trailer parks or poor neighborhoods and get nothing. I recognized this problem years ago. 40-50 years ago, some proud and noble black people fought for civil rights and equality and won. The next generation came around and found out what equality really means in America. You get nothing except opportunity. Now get to fscking work, quit crying, make use of that opportunity, and quit demanding handouts, ok? It's getting old.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Im not crying im doing quite well but it because of AA that helped me. I wouldnt have the job I have now if it wasnt for AA.

and your PROUD of that??

that's disgusting to say.

The BIGGEST problem with the "BLACKS" in america is the teenage pregnancy issue. Family structures are the SINGLE most important factor in determining a persons success. AA don't mean SH!T if the person doesn't have a decent family structure to support him, are there EXCEPTIONS to this generalization, YES, but in general is it true, YES.

Stop with the AA nonsense and FORCE people to take responsibility for their actions. STOP with the teenage pregnancy, STOP with the gangs, STOP with the drug dealing, STOP with killing of your own people. STOP pretending that you don't have a chance because your black, THAT'S NONSENSE. THE REASON you don't have a chance is because YOU BOUGHT into this black people DESERVE a chance NONSENSE.

OMFG, this issue pisses me off more than any other single issue discussed on AT.

Inner city schools aren't bad because they don't have money. YOU DON'T NEED MONEY, COMPUTERS, FANCY CLASSROOMS, HIGH PRICED TEACHERS or ANY of that crap to teach your kids READING, WRITING and ARITHMATIC. UNTIL you've proven that you can teach your kids the BASICS stop trying to pretend that throwing money at the problem will resolve it. IT'S NOT A MONEY ISSUE.

I could teach my kids at home, teach them BASICS and I could get my kids in COLLEGE. AP IS NOT REQUIRED to get kids into COLLEGE, JUST BASICS.

If you can't even teach your kids the basics don't come crying to me about discrimination.

 

[gururu]

I think most of you arguing against AA will be happy to know the following:

UW Madison: My department.

No black professors
No hispanic professors
No asian professors
No black post-docs
No hispanic post-docs
No black grad students
1 hispanic grad student (me)
5 asian grad students
51 white grad students

so tell me, do you think my dept. has an AA program or not?

 

[DJFuji]

Originally posted by: ChineseSkaterNoRice

Originally posted by: DJ Fuji
Just spent the last hour and a half reading through this entire post. And i wonder why i don't have any time anymore. =)

I think all success should be merit-based. You should get the job or position based on your success and accomplishments, not on your background. Yes, minorities or people of lower socioeconomic class are at times at a disadvantage. But how do you think spud webb or mugsy felt when they first started playing basketball? I'm not a huge follower of the sport, but i've never heard them say they want 3 points for a layup because they're "disadvantaged." At times, the athletic world is a good microcosm of what society should look towards. There is relatively no race or socioeconomic levels in sports. The best man wins. That's how it should be.

In high school, there were a few kids on my wrestling team a few weight classes up who had wrestled since they were 6. Of course, they made the varsity team relatively early. I didn't hear the JV guys saying "well he came from a 'wrestling' family and i didn't so i deserve special consideration." Yes, that kid did have an advantage. But again, we come to the point of the best man wins. The ONLY time AA or the like should have ANY relevance is if two candidates are IDENTICAL in qualifications. At that point, i think the edge goes to the poor and homeless kid who walked to school and worked twice as hard to get his straight A's or equivalent successes.

On the other hand, i find it sad that many black parents raise their children to think that "the Man is oppressing us." Of course, other minorities are guilty of this as well, but i see it most often in african americans. The problem with this is that you start an attitude of "the world owes me something" that naturally rationalizes subpar performance. Then you pass this to your children, who pass this on to their children, and the vicious cycle never stops until one generation realizes that this attitude isn't getting them anywhere. That's when you get minorities who excel, despite their upbringing and class.

Unfortunately, these minorities are then shunned by those less fortunate, and labeled as "white washed." They are transformed into an entity of "the man" by their own people because they have overcome what others could not. If their people would embrace success and overcoming obstacles, maybe more of them would undertake this kind of goal.

In my opinion, darkstar757 is a product of his upbringing. I seriously doubt that he has come up with most of these ideals solely from his societal observations. The same way my ideals of "you reap what you sow" comes from my parents' ideals. In this way, yes, he is at a disadvantage. By human nature, he is less inclined to feel that he should work harder to achieve success. And his race is definitely discriminated against, as are most other minorities.

But the point is, you won't get anywhere bitching and worrying about things you can't change. Even if the government can be persuaded to give you handouts or preferential treatment based on your race, you'll only increase the disdain with which others look at you when they see that you couldn't make it on your own. And ultimately, you'll never reach the levels of success that those who truly work for it will. The govt may give you preferential treatment at times, but it WON'T skyrocket you to success. The only thing that will do THAT is what's already been said: diligence, dedication, and hard work.

you do realize that the armed forces have been one of the greatest forces in the promotion and execution of AA policies? by the way, what about my arguments.

Chineseskaternorice, if you are referring to your arguments about race being an issue with AA, i've addressed your arguments twofold: a) the race issue should be null because AA itself should be null.
And b) "But the point is, you won't get anywhere bitching and worrying about things you can't change."

Who has the REAL power in changing policy or influencing people in this country? The poor minority who voices his opinions on deaf ears in the unemployment line, or the minority who climbs the socioeconmic ladder, gets to the top, and either makes changes, or speaks out to the people who are eager to listen? If the issue you're addressing is racism, the only way to make changes are from the top. And to get to the top you need to work for it, not expect it to be given to you.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: gururu
I think most of you arguing against AA will be happy to know the following:

UW Madison: My department.

No black professors
No hispanic professors
No asian professors
No black post-docs
No hispanic post-docs
No black grad students
1 hispanic grad student (me)
5 asian grad students
51 white grad students

so tell me, do you think my dept. has an AA program or not?

WHO gives a flying FVCK.

don't bitch to me that there isn't a fair share of anyone anywhere until you can show me that you can train your people in the basics.

the biggest lie with desegregation was it WAS the worst thing to do. who better to teach black people than other black people. Would there have been a disparity in funds, perhaps initially, but IF the black people had shown initiative an achieve a certain level of success, that disparity would have been reduced.

desegregation placed black people in a situation where black students would consistently be toward the bottom of their respective classes. they recieved disfavorable treatment from their teachers.

again, bottom line, TEACH YOUR PEOPLE THE BASICS and quit bitching. guess what, if they get the basics, their chances of success in college rise DRAMATICALLY.

 

[gururu]

If you can't even teach your kids the basics don't come crying to me about discrimination.

i had to respond to this. Oh man, you are taking it pretty personal. In my book, that pretty much kills your argument, but I'll respond anyway. You know nothing of what you speak of. Money at the secondary education level makes an immense difference. As does the professional standing of one's parents. Put a kid with college educated parents in a well-to-do community and they are going to beat the pants off of any kid in the ghetto (white or black). Now, what percent of kids in such a favorable setting are white. 99.9% Now who has the upper edge at this point in time? Nobody is crying. In fact, you seem to be the one crying. And I think its quite hypocritical.

 

[DJFuji]

Originally posted by: gururu
I think most of you arguing against AA will be happy to know the following:

UW Madison: My department.

No black professors
No hispanic professors
No asian professors
No black post-docs
No hispanic post-docs
No black grad students
1 hispanic grad student (me)
5 asian grad students
51 white grad students

so tell me, do you think my dept. has an AA program or not?

If those figures are because the minorities were less qualified, i fully support it. If it's a result of racism, i challenge those 6 minority students to excel past their majority counterparts, obtain seniority and success within the department, and make changes from the top.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: gururu

If you can't even teach your kids the basics don't come crying to me about discrimination.

i had to respond to this. Oh man, you are taking it pretty personal. In my book, that pretty much kills your argument, but I'll respond anyway. You know nothing of what you speak of. Money at the secondary education level makes an immense difference. As does the professional standing of one's parents. Put a kid with college educated parents in a well-to-do community and they are going to beat the pants off of any kid in the ghetto (white or black). Now, what percent of kids in such a favorable setting are white. 99.9% Now who has the upper edge at this point in time? Nobody is crying. In fact, you seem to be the one crying. And I think its quite hypocritical.

Realistically, I'd say around 75%. But I don't really understand the point of your post.

 

[gururu]

WHO gives a flying FVCK.

what are you in 9th grade or something?

its not because minorities are less qualified or because of racism. Its because there are less minority applicants; that is, less trained minorities in the midwest seeking graduate level education. The point I am trying to get across is that white people have more competition amongst themselves than the few minorities that get AA privileges. and the number of slots for this program aren't ever saturated.

 

[DJFuji]

Originally posted by: gururu

If you can't even teach your kids the basics don't come crying to me about discrimination.

i had to respond to this. Oh man, you are taking it pretty personal. In my book, that pretty much kills your argument, but I'll respond anyway. You know nothing of what you speak of. Money at the secondary education level makes an immense difference. As does the professional standing of one's parents. Put a kid with college educated parents in a well-to-do community and they are going to beat the pants off of any kid in the ghetto (white or black). Now, what percent of kids in such a favorable setting are white. 99.9% Now who has the upper edge at this point in time? Nobody is crying. In fact, you seem to be the one crying. And I think its quite hypocritical.

i don't entire agree with LeeTJ (in the sense that segregation might have fueled additional isolation with minority groups and would have reduced exposure to different people), but gururu, i don't exactly see your point. You're arguing that minorities should receive additional consideration because of their race because children of college educated parents do better than those of the ghetto? It all comes down to darwinian theory: survival of the fittest. How woud YOU feel if you were turned down for a position because some less qualified student or applicant was of a different race? wouldn't that make you angry? wouldn't that make you think "i'm more qualified, why should he get preference because he's a certain race?"

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: gururu

If you can't even teach your kids the basics don't come crying to me about discrimination.

i had to respond to this. Oh man, you are taking it pretty personal. In my book, that pretty much kills your argument, but I'll respond anyway. You know nothing of what you speak of. Money at the secondary education level makes an immense difference. As does the professional standing of one's parents. Put a kid with college educated parents in a well-to-do community and they are going to beat the pants off of any kid in the ghetto (white or black). Now, what percent of kids in such a favorable setting are white. 99.9% Now who has the upper edge at this point in time? Nobody is crying. In fact, you seem to be the one crying. And I think its quite hypocritical.

and your speaking as if AA can change that.

AA was not and IS not the answer, just as desegregation wasn't the answer.

the answer was that black community taking responsibility for itself and black people taking responsibility for themselves. they choose NOT to.

hey, don't matter to me, there will always be a %age of people at the bottom of the economic ladder, as long as black people choose to be the majority at the bottom leaves more room for the rest of us above it. NO sweat off my back AT ALL.

and btw, i'm not taking it personal and i'm not crying as i have nothing at stake in this, except that status quo is better for me.

i'm just discussing the logic of the thing.

black people as a group made bad choices because they weren't willing to allow for small steps, they wanted it all right then right there. well guess what, it never happened for any other immigrant group and it wasn't going to happen for black people. by going down the "allow government for get rid of discrimination for us" route, the black people just condemned themselves to stay where they were.

again, it is no sweat off my back.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: gururu

WHO gives a flying FVCK.

what are you in 9th grade or something?

its not because minorities are less qualified or because of racism. Its because there are less minority applicants; that is, less trained minorities in the midwest seeking graduate level education. The point I am trying to get across is that white people have more competition amongst themselves than the few minorities that get AA privileges. and the number of slots for this program aren't ever saturated.

very good resort to personal attacks.

my only point with that statement is and was, the statistics from 1 university out of context is ABSOLUTELY meaningless statistically.