Affirmative Action - Get rid of it...work for a living!

SaigonK

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Aug 13, 2001
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I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
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Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!
Am I the only one that finds this ironic? :D
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
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Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!
Am I the only one that finds this ironic? :D

Haha nope
 

gururu

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
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You have obviously been sheltered from racism. Otherwise you might realize that the reason so many ethnic groups have had a difficult time reaching the upper echelons of society is because they have willfully been oppressed. Is this a bad thing? Who is to say. I mean, they (the English) conquered this land fair and square right. Not to mention our own domination of the native american and mexican lands. and of course, we enslaved africans because white was the superior race. over and done with? not by a long shot. that ignorant sentiment is what fuels a new, subversive racism in today's society. these groups continue to be oppressed. just compare the differences in education between whites and blacks.
so why affirmative action? first of all, it is hardly a handout and you're a fool for thinking that it is. the objective of affirmative action is not to make things 'equal'. it is simply to make the composition of the professional class reflective of the social composition that supports it. if the country is 30% black, 10% mexican, then why shouldn't these percentages exist in academia, industry and government?
 

dolph

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2001
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there's been so much affirmative action going on lately, we should discriminate against blacks and hispanics now to "even it out"! let a dumb white kid with a 2.0 gpa and a 1050 sat get into stanford while making the black kid who has a 4.7 and a 1510 go to a community college!
 

OldSpooky

Senior member
Nov 28, 2002
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I am somewhat ambivalent about AA, and I think consideration should be given to socioeconomic status rather than race. For example, I'm all for giving a poor inner-city kid who managed to get somewhat decent (12-1300 or so) SAT scores a chance at a top University, since they probably have not had the benefit of a good public education.

On the other hand, an African American from a wealthy suburb who had the benefit of excellent private schooling but still can't pull top grades or SAT scores should not get into a top University on the basis of skin color.

My parents are divided on this. Both are Chinese immigrants who have lived in this country for more than thirty years, and both are relatively well educated. My mother thinks AA works very unfairly against hard working Asians, while my dad thinks that AA is necessary to give minorities a chance.

I think that only the topic of Abortion is more likely to spark a flame war here. Besides, isn't there a politics forum for threads like these? :)
 

gururu

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
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actually there has been a whole lot of talk about it, not much of the action itself. every time a school institutes a policy, it is usually challenged early on and defeated. so at this point it is much ado about nothing, and I really don't think that brilliant white specimens will have to worry about losing that slot to retarded mexican specimens.
 

Darkstar757

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2003
3,190
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Originally posted by: SaigonK
I am so sick of all this affirmative action crap! And before someone throws out the "you dont know what it's like" crap I do know..I am the child of two immigrants myself.
They taught me one of the best lessons of my life..."work hard....dont be bothered by ignorance..dont expect a handout..you live in the greates country in the world."

Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!

Well from that statement you arent Black in the USA. Cause if it was for AA almost all Blacks in the US wouldnt never have a chance at getting out of the low enconomics state we have been in for the last 100 years. By the way untill half of the US senate is either Black or Hispanic etc we will need AA.
 

SaigonK

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2001
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www.robertrivas.com
You have obviously been sheltered from racism. Otherwise you might realize that the reason so many ethnic groups have had a difficult time reaching the upper echelons of society is because they have willfully been oppressed.

Not sheltered at all, as a matter of fcat. And much of what you speak happened ages ago. Do you really believe today that this still happens on a regualr basis? I think not.


we enslaved africans because white was the superior race. over and done with? not by a long shot. that ignorant sentiment is what fuels a new, subversive racism in today's society. these groups continue to be oppressed. just compare the differences in education between whites and blacks.

The differences exist because those who wish to do nothing about their fututre but instead live in the past contintue to exploit them.


so why affirmative action? first of all, it is hardly a handout and you're a fool for thinking that it is.

Explain to me how it isnt a handout?
When you are judged on your race and not on your merit? You get an SAT score of 900 yet you attend yale or MIchigan U. because they gave your free points? not because you were opressed or owned bya white man, but because you are a dumbass who could not pass the test.


the objective of affirmative action is not to make things 'equal'. it is simply to make the composition of the professional class reflective of the social composition that supports it. if the country is 30% black, 10% mexican, then why shouldn't these percentages exist in academia, industry and government?

They should reflect those numbers..in a real way not ina forced, given way.
I am very sorry, but if you cannot "rise above" then why should i be bound to suffer for it? Frankly most of this applies to black citizens, and NOT the other minorities.


 

Syringer

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
19,333
2
71
Originally posted by: SaigonK
Why is it that after all this time people still feel they are owed something?
And dont mention the whole "slaves brought here by the man" crap. Its over and done with....and the "I am from another counrty where I am less foprtunate" so you owe me now...please!

That is by far the worst argument you can have for AA..seeing as how the Chinese have been among the most discriminated and oppressed groups in the early and mid 20th century, and have certainly been at least as much mistreated as the Hispanics have in the course of American history--yet the Chinese are at a huge disadvantage when AA comes to place, whereas Hispanics are at a huge advantange.
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
71
It is unfortunate and sad that AA is indeed still needed in the USA.

Perhaps the next generation will be truly color blind.

We can only hope.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
27,519
2
81
Originally posted by: gururu
You have obviously been sheltered from racism. Otherwise you might realize that the reason so many ethnic groups have had a difficult time reaching the upper echelons of society is because they have willfully been oppressed. Is this a bad thing? Who is to say. I mean, they (the English) conquered this land fair and square right. Not to mention our own domination of the native american and mexican lands. and of course, we enslaved africans because white was the superior race. over and done with? not by a long shot. that ignorant sentiment is what fuels a new, subversive racism in today's society. these groups continue to be oppressed. just compare the differences in education between whites and blacks. so why affirmative action? first of all, it is hardly a handout and you're a fool for thinking that it is. the objective of affirmative action is not to make things 'equal'. it is simply to make the composition of the professional class reflective of the social composition that supports it. if the country is 30% black, 10% mexican, then why shouldn't these percentages exist in academia, industry and government?

Actually, there are more hispanics in the US than Blacks. Hispanics are the largest minority group.
 

I guess this is my big qualm with affirmative action: this is America, land of opportunity. My dad (white) grew up in a low income section of Brooklyn. His dad worked nights as a photo engraver at the New York Daily News, and my grandmother was a kindergarten teacher. My mom's dad was a carpenter, and her mom was a cosmetologist. Now, they're wealthy enough to send me to one of the best schools in the nation, and I respect them very much for that.

The U.S. already has welfare. We already have unemployment compensation. We already have Medicare. We already have the YMCA and the United Way to help people who are less fortunate. If, like you proponents of AA say, that AA is necessary because of the low socioeconomic status of African-Americans, then why can't those people utilize our country's numerous offerings of economic assistance to get out of poverty?

In my opinion, affirmative action is perpetualizing the tendency of people to be lazy. Oh, not making enough money? It's okay, your kid will go to a great school because he's black or Mexican.
Cause if it was for AA almost all Blacks in the US wouldnt never have a chance at getting out of the low enconomics state we have been in for the last 100 years.
If that's the case, then GET OUT OF THE LOW ECONOMIC RUNG! My parents did it by working hard in school and going to college, so it's definitely possible!

My dad went to a local college in Brooklyn (for free, because of his good grades) and he's currently a nationally known doctor who's an expert on occupational health hazards. My mom went to a D1 school and 15 years later went to graduate school in library science. She's currently a part time librarian at a local library. They make enough money to be comfortable, which is MUCH different from their parents' situations.

You're right. I'm not "black in the USA." I'm smart in the U.S.A., and I got into college with high test scores and grades, ALL BY MYSELF.

EDIT: and watch those double negatives. The U of M won't take people with piss-poor grammar skills, black OR white.
 

Syringer

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
19,333
2
71
Originally posted by: gururu

so why affirmative action? first of all, it is hardly a handout and you're a fool for thinking that it is. the objective of affirmative action is not to make things 'equal'. it is simply to make the composition of the professional class reflective of the social composition that supports it. if the country is 30% black, 10% mexican, then why shouldn't these percentages exist in academia, industry and government?

a) There's not even close to 30% black people in America.
b) Because if you are to reflect that standard you'd be unfairly letting in a LOT of underqualified, and even unqualified people into colleges. And you know what happens to them? They end up getting much lower grades than their non-AA benefited counterparts, and a good number end up dropping out because they weren't ready to compete with people who got their on their own merit.
c) The backlash against AA-benefited members is tremendous coming from the non-AA people. AA just adds to the racism fuel. At a leading campus that supports AA, if an asian student who worked hard his entire life, achieving the highest posssible academic marks sees say a black person on there, he'll automatically assumed AA helped him get there..even if the black student did just as well in school as he did..and the backlash would be even worse if he got in with much lower standards. Without AA there is NO question of each and every students' merits, while AA just leaves that door open to backlash, a lot of which is undeserved. It's like donating money to someone just because he's of a certain race and assumed to be poor. They never asked for it, and would be insulted to receive such charity.
 

FatJackSprat

Senior member
May 16, 2003
431
0
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Originally posted by: gururu and of course, we enslaved africans because white was the superior race.
Africans were enslaved by Africans and offered for sale. Americans didn't decide they needed slaves and then randomly choose a continent. Instead, Americans were merely following the custom of the time period. Should they also be insulted for believing in the four humors?

We didn't enslave Africans because we were the superior race. We, like so many others of the world, purchased what was made available.

over and done with? not by a long shot. that ignorant sentiment is what fuels a new, subversive racism in today's society. these groups continue to be oppressed. just compare the differences in education between whites and blacks.
Is that difference in education entirely attributable to the white race? I don't believe it is even 50% attributable to the white race. Look at the differences in government funding to schools. The government doles out a disproportionate amount of funding to minority schools. Nonminority school districts may get more money from the local taxes of parents and residents, but why shouldn't the money they work for support their children?

No one ever looks to the differences in the home lives and upbringing when discussing the differences resulting from early development. I'm not saying all minorities are bad parents and I'm not saying all whites are good ones, but there are differences in things such as teen pregnancies, school drop outs which are well known as indicators of future success. Maybe it would be better to start funding programs that instruct people how to be parents, rather than into the K-12 school systems. I also don't believe those differences are due to poverty levels. We all have the ability to attempt and raise our children to be responsible, regardless of income.

so why affirmative action? first of all, it is hardly a handout and you're a fool for thinking that it is.
How is it not a hand out? Do minorities have to successfully complete the 'daily physical challenge' to get the benefits? No, they are given benefits by merely checking the right box. That's not working for the benefit, that's a handout.


the objective of affirmative action is not to make things 'equal'. it is simply to make the composition of the professional class reflective of the social composition that supports it. if the country is 30% black, 10% mexican, then why shouldn't these percentages exist in academia, industry and government?
Because we're not arranging dinner dates for people to sit and talk about what they have in common with each other. We're talking about the ability to engage in the type of rational and well reasoned thought it takes to run a government, make an industry profitable, or instruct a class. Society benefits by placing its most able individuals into the positions their talents are best suited to serve.

Sure, minorities have been historically disadvantaged in a very unfair manner. Much as anyone would like to, it is impossible to change the past. However, you can't simply remedy those acts by placing them into positions they have not demonstrated an aptitude to function within. It's like building a house by trying to place the roof first. Without a proper foundation it just won't be able to support itself.

Allow people to acquire the positions they are best suited for and progress will follow. If a minority can easily get into a trade school, that is what he is suited for and he will excel. Then, on the basis of his higher level of prosperity, his children will have a better chance of advancing beyond his postion.

Right now, people are placed into positions that they have not learned to cope with and they fail, only be in a worse postion than they were before. So then we have two people who aren't necessarily performing to their fullest potential, the accepted minority and the rejected non-minority. How does society benefit from that situation?
 

Darkstar757

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2003
3,190
6
81
Originally posted by: jumpr
I guess this is my big qualm with affirmative action: this is America, land of opportunity. My dad (white) grew up in a low income section of Brooklyn. His dad worked nights as a photo engraver at the New York Daily News, and my grandmother was a kindergarten teacher. My mom's dad was a carpenter, and her mom was a cosmetologist. Now, they're wealthy enough to send me to one of the best schools in the nation, and I respect them very much for that.

The U.S. already has welfare. We already have unemployment compensation. We already have medicare. We already have the YMCA and the United Way to help people who are less fortunate. If, like you proponents of AA say, that AA is necessary because of the low socioeconomic status of African-Americans, then why can't those people utilize our country's numerous offerings of economic assistance to get out of poverty?

In my opinion, affirmative action is perpetualizing the tendency of people to be lazy. Oh, not making enough money? It's okay, your kid will go to a great school because he's black or Mexican.
Cause if it was for AA almost all Blacks in the US wouldnt never have a chance at getting out of the low enconomics state we have been in for the last 100 years.
If that's the case, then GET OUT OF THE LOW ECONOMIC RUNG! My parents did it. You're right. I'm not "black in the USA." I'm smart in the U.S.A., and I got into college with high test scores and grades, ALL BY MYSELF.

PS

You are White!!! Way more oportunities. Not saying that your hard work isnt a good chunk of your success. But come on be real, how many blacks do you see doing what your family did. Is it because all Blacks are dumb and lazy. Ummm No! so untill your skin is black and you wake up and understand that Blacks built the country you live in for free you cant say things like that. You need to study more on the after effects of slavery on a culture. Its a huge force that has continued to undermind the success of blacks in the USA. I mean come on dude its called old Money man. Most blacks dont have old money because there parents parents were slaves. Also by the way you guys act as though slavery occurred 400 million years ago. Wake up and realize that AA is a form of equality for the years of greed and slavery imposed your parents parents.


 

Originally posted by: Darkstar757
You need to study more on the after effects of slavery on a culture. Its a huge force that has continued to undermind the success of blacks in the USA. I mean come on dude its called old Money man. Most blacks dont have old money because there parents parents were slaves. Also by the way you guys act as though slavery occurred 400 million years ago. Wake up and realize that AA is a form of equality for the years of greed and slavery imposed your parents parents.
I'm well aware of the effects of slavery on a culture. I'm Jewish. My people were enslaved by cruel Egyptian pharohs. I'm not making a big deal about it. I'm not demanding reparations from the Egyptians. I don't demand to be let into the University of Cairo because of my heritage.

"But," you say, "that happened thousands of years ago!" Yes, it did. But Jews have NEVER, EVER demanded preferential treatment because of their heritage. Ever heard of a place called Aushwitz? It was tougher, hotter and deadlier than the hottest Mississippi cotton field in 1855. My grandparents almost died there, but the Allied army rescued them.

I'm not sure why Jews don't complain about their treatment over the past 5,000 years. Maybe it's because we realize that minorities have it tough, and that we must work for our achievements. You could learn a lot from a Jew.

EDIT: Don't EVER tell me that my parents' parents held slaves. You don't know a DAMN thing about my grandparents, and you obviously don't recognize that OTHER people have had it tough, not just blacks. The way you talk, it seems like you're a self-centered dick who feels like everything should be handed to him just because his skin is colored differently then mine. Yup, sounds like affirmative action to me.

My skin is white. But my blood runs red, just like yours. We've all had hardships in our lives, and just because your skin is darker than mine, it doesn't mean that your trials and tribulations are ANY worse. Wake up and realize that other people in this world have had to work for their place in society. You obviously don't want to.

I have news for you: you, not I, are perpetuating the stereotype that African-Americans don't want to work for their benefits. My family has had an incredible story of hardship and blight, and look where I am today. No government assistance, no HANDOUTS, and pure HARD WORK.
 

csf

Banned
Aug 5, 2001
319
0
0
The scary thing is how the alleged reason behind AA has changed and affected its status in the future. Originally it was argued that AA would be a somewhat temporary measure, either to exist until it redressed past wrongs or allowed favored minorities to "catch up" with whites. I don't find those arguments valid, but at least they acknowledged that AA should not be a permanent thing. Of course, neither of these above arguments are legally valid anymore.

The court rulings in Bakke, and now Grutter (I assume so though I haven't read the decision) only allow AA for purposes of creating diversity. While it seems like a watered down argument, it is much more dangerous because it is so arbitrary and lacks the somewhat apologetic nature behind the retribution/level the playing field arguments (e.g. "this isn't the way it should be, but for the sake of correcting past wrongs..."). Because the Supreme Court has established this vague concept of diversity as a compelling social interest, AA proponents have less of a need to justify their policy and sadly AA seems to be turning into a permanent thing. Of course most favored minorities are never going to complain about it since they benefit from it substantially.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,418
1,598
126
Originally posted by: Darkstar757
Originally posted by: jumpr
I guess this is my big qualm with affirmative action: this is America, land of opportunity. My dad (white) grew up in a low income section of Brooklyn. His dad worked nights as a photo engraver at the New York Daily News, and my grandmother was a kindergarten teacher. My mom's dad was a carpenter, and her mom was a cosmetologist. Now, they're wealthy enough to send me to one of the best schools in the nation, and I respect them very much for that.

The U.S. already has welfare. We already have unemployment compensation. We already have medicare. We already have the YMCA and the United Way to help people who are less fortunate. If, like you proponents of AA say, that AA is necessary because of the low socioeconomic status of African-Americans, then why can't those people utilize our country's numerous offerings of economic assistance to get out of poverty?

In my opinion, affirmative action is perpetualizing the tendency of people to be lazy. Oh, not making enough money? It's okay, your kid will go to a great school because he's black or Mexican.
Cause if it was for AA almost all Blacks in the US wouldnt never have a chance at getting out of the low enconomics state we have been in for the last 100 years.
If that's the case, then GET OUT OF THE LOW ECONOMIC RUNG! My parents did it. You're right. I'm not "black in the USA." I'm smart in the U.S.A., and I got into college with high test scores and grades, ALL BY MYSELF.

PS

You are White!!! Way more oportunities. Not saying that your hard work isnt a good chunk of your success. But come on be real, how many blacks do you see doing what your family did. Is it because all Blacks are dumb and lazy. Ummm No! so untill your skin is black and you wake up and understand that Blacks built the country you live in for free you cant say things like that. You need to study more on the after effects of slavery on a culture. Its a huge force that has continued to undermind the success of blacks in the USA. I mean come on dude its called old Money man. Most blacks dont have old money because there parents parents were slaves. Also by the way you guys act as though slavery occurred 400 million years ago. Wake up and realize that AA is a form of equality for the years of greed and slavery imposed your parents parents.

Then why are Asians doing so well? The Chinese were VERY heavily discriminated against then they arrived, and what about the Vietnamese? Most have only been here for < 30 years, and they started out with nothing. Now, you can't possibly tell me the Japanese weren't discriminated against (internment camps anybody?)

 

FatJackSprat

Senior member
May 16, 2003
431
0
76
Originally posted by: jumpr
Originally posted by: Darkstar757
You need to study more on the after effects of slavery on a culture. Its a huge force that has continued to undermind the success of blacks in the USA. I mean come on dude its called old Money man. Most blacks dont have old money because there parents parents were slaves. Also by the way you guys act as though slavery occurred 400 million years ago. Wake up and realize that AA is a form of equality for the years of greed and slavery imposed your parents parents.
I'm well aware of the effects of slavery on a culture. I'm Jewish. My people were enslaved by cruel Egyptian pharohs. I'm not making a big deal about it. I'm not demanding reparations from the Egyptians. I don't demand to be let into the University of Cairo because of my heritage.

"But," you say, "that happened thousands of years ago!" Yes, it did. But Jews have NEVER, EVER demanded preferential treatment because of their heritage. Ever heard of a place called Aushwitz? It was tougher, hotter and deadlier than the hottest Mississippi cotton field in 1855. My grandparents almost died there, but the Allied army rescued them.

I'm not sure why Jews don't complain about their treatment over the past 5,000 years. Maybe it's because we realize that minorities have it tough, and that we must work for our achievements. You could learn a lot from a Jew.

Absolutely! You never hear people talking about the current problem of Jewish poverty or underrepresentation. Why? Because it's not a problem that exists. People got together and said, 'This is what happened to us, again. This is where we are today. Now, how can we work to change the situation?'

Imagine how different things would be if the Jewish people had gone looking for retribution every single time something happened to them. The Jews have been the subject of much greater and more frequent historical persecution than African slaves and they're still not looking for a handout.
 

Spudd

Golden Member
Aug 7, 2001
1,114
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71
I don't know you're a jew until you tell me your name. For many their last name isn't even jewish. However, if your skin is dark I KNOW you're a minority. There's a big difference. You can hide one, but you can't hide the color of your skin. Think about it.