A thread about Christianity

[Mill]

Originally posted by: gopunk
alright gonna go to sleep now... nice talking with y'all, good to see that everything stayed civil

Hopefully it will remain civil, but good talking to you as well.

 

[Blain]

"The problem, for both sides, is that the militantly ignorant / closed minded minorities are the loudest ones."

I don't really think this would be that big an issue if it were not for our modern "news" media that seeks out conflict to report on. There have always been loud, fist pounding groups. But without a platform to speak out, they were kept in check by the majority. I don't mean the majority oppressed them. Just that majority opinion overshadowed the extreme minority view.

 

[So]

Well, I too am off to bed. As Gopunk said, it has been nice talking to you all. I'll check back in on this thread tomorrow afternoon.

 

[DuallyX]

To chime in- What I have always been taught, and believe, is that if you truely wish to convert someone, you must live a life true to the beliefs you profess. This is a similar thought to St. Paul's "Faith without works is dead."

Many Christian fundimentalists who subscribe to "Faith alone" teachings criticize Catholics for believing that faith AND good works are neccessary. But what St. Paul, and the Church is teaching is that if you truely have faith, you will live it everyday, and as a neccesary product of your faith, you will do good works.

If we "love each other as Christ loves the Church", than we will offer food to the hungry, clothing to the naked, and shelter to the homeless irregardless of thier profession of faith or lack there-of.

I do know atheists that are better "Christians" than "Christians." There is a vast difference between TELLING everyone you've been saved, and LIVING a life FULL of Christ-like love and selflessness.

 

[Spac3d]

You didn't even leave cliffnotes:disgust::frown:

 

[violetman]

violent people don't like Christians

 

[Blain]

That was in James chapter 2 where he says that "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: Millennium
I was watching a Documentary earlier on the Sundance channel about a church's Hell House and I got to thinking. I grew up in church and so did a vast majority of my family. I haven't gone much(except when my mother asks me to) since I was 16/17, but this Documentary really got me thinking. There was a group of kids on the show that disagreed with how the church portrayed events in their hellhouse. They said that religion was being forced down their throats yet they are the ones that went to the Hell House. Considering it was built on the back of a Christian Bookstore there is no way they were somehow tricked into going. In my 16/17 years in church I never had a person force me to believe in anything or condemn me when I did something wrong. I received a lot of compassion, some great friends, and a sense of well-being when I went to church. Where are these Christians that force their beliefs on people? They may witness but I never see the sheer brutality of it all like some allege here.

I am just wondering why people have a problem with Christianity? How exactly does it bother you if someone wants to do their own thing? How does it bother you went they invite you to experience the joy they have? I am not saying that there isn't Christians out there that do go over the line. I am sure there are some that do, but they are a minority that gives the rest of Christians a bad name. For the record I don't consider myself a Christian, but tonight I started thinking about how I sort of missed church. I miss the camaraderie and the good people. I have good friends now, but oddly enough MOST of them are ones that I met in Church and drifted away like me. The one thing holding me back from going to church is that I can't honestly agree with some of the moral viewpoints that they take. I don't believe drinking is wrong. I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong. I don't believe that profanity is going to condemn me to eternal damnation either. Now, I guess what this thread is about is your experiences and how your moral beliefs conflict with those of your church and what you have done about it. Have you been able to find a suitable church or do you just not go? I do, however, believe in Creationism to some degree because I think evolutionary theory doesn't properly account for the start of the earth. I don't really want debate about that aspect, so I hope we can keep that out of this thread. I have a lot of questions and conflict right now so any helpful and on-topic comments are appreciated. Lets not turn this into a flamewar so everybody play nice(funny coming from me eh?).

PMs are welcome if you don't feel like giving your beliefs here or if you want to talk to me privately.

Evan

i converted to Catholicism as an adult.
i chose Catholicism for several reasons, but one of the most important ones is
that the Church has beliefs on social issues that strongly mirror mine (pro-life, etc.).

you sound like you went to a fundamentalist protestant christian church,
like i did while growing up.

if you feel a religious impulse, then visiting a few different ones to get a feeling
for their compatibility with your beliefs might be a good idea.

there are fairly tolerant ones (Unitarianism - just about anything goes),
and more mainstream ones.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: Dual700s
To chime in- What I have always been taught, and believe, is that if you truely wish to convert someone, you must live a life true to the beliefs you profess. This is a similar thought to St. Paul's "Faith without works is dead."

Many Christian fundimentalists who subscribe to "Faith alone" teachings criticize Catholics for believing that faith AND good works are neccessary. But what St. Paul, and the Church is teaching is that if you truely have faith, you will live it everyday, and as a neccesary product of your faith, you will do good works.

If we "love each other as Christ loves the Church", than we will offer food to the hungry, clothing to the naked, and shelter to the homeless irregardless of thier profession of faith or lack there-of.

I do know atheists that are better "Christians" than "Christians." There is a vast difference between TELLING everyone you've been saved, and LIVING a life FULL of Christ-like love and selflessness.

this reminded me of a comic i saw the other day:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0041/0041_01.asp

kind of scary, huh? i thought the comic was a joke at first...

 

[dc]

people cannot save themselves, salvation is granted by the grace of God alone.
and yes, faith without works is dead. if they don't walk the way they talk, they are hypocrites and it's pointless to listen to.

 

[Chaotic42]

My thoughts are weird....

God exists.
Christ died so that all who believe in him may enter heaven.
God created science.
God uses science when he needs to. IE evolution.
The universe exists for us to explore.
The 10 commandments exist as God's rules. They mean what they say.
People should be nice and respect each other as Jesus did.
I have a personal relationship with God, I don't need some moron telling me what he thinks God means.

 

[thomsbrain]

my personal problem with at least my family's church is that the confirmation process is (purposely, i believe) begun far too young (junior high school). they do it at an age when the kid is "supposed" to be able to make these choices for themselves, but is still too young to be willing to risk the disapproval of both his family and all the members of his church if he/she decides not to go through with it. although i obviously wasn't "forced" to go through confirmation, i really had no choice because i, like most "good" kids at that age, wasn't willing to disappoint my parents or risk having them punish me because i said "no." a lot of my friends feel the same way, looking back on it. even if we did want to go through with it, we were still far to young to be making that kind of choice. it was the religous equivilent of statutory rape. i didn't start to form any of my own ideas about spirituality until a decade later (although perhaps the gap was the result of a kneejerk reaction). not that i expect sympathy from anyone, and i'm not exactly scarred by the experience, but it was definetly wrong. i had to stand in front of hundreds of people and pledge myself to something i didn't believe in, and i was too young to be able to stand up for myself.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
my personal problem with at least my family's church is that the confirmation process is (purposely, i believe) begun far too young (junior high school). they do it at an age when the kid is "supposed" to be able to make these choices for themselves, but is still too young to be willing to risk the disapproval of both his family and all the members of his church if he/she decides not to go through with it. although i obviously wasn't "forced" to go through confirmation, i really had no choice because i, like most "good" kids at that age, wasn't willing to disappoint my parents or risk having them punish me because i said "no." a lot of my friends feel the same way, looking back on it. even if we did want to go through with it, we were still far to young to be making that kind of choice. it was the religous equivilent of statutory rape. i didn't start to form any of my own ideas about spirituality until a decade later (although perhaps the gap was the result of a kneejerk reaction). not that i expect sympathy from anyone, and i'm not exactly scarred by the experience, but it was definetly wrong. i had to stand in front of hundreds of people and pledge myself to something i didn't believe in, and i was too young to be able to stand up for myself.

Same here. I am technically a "confirmed" Catholic, but I too feel that when you go through the motions of a ritual that means nothing to you, it's not binding. In reality I am an Agnostic; the question of whether or not there is a God is one in which the answer has no relevence to my life. However, I believe that all religions are equally stupid.

 

[Mingon]

add some little points, not read all the thread just bits so ignore irrelevances;

War - how many wars are caused by religon?

Marriage - in the UK it costs upwards of $1200 to get married in a church.

Ever seen the film Dogma, best religous message I have ever heard.

My friend was raped,beaten then made to watch her dad kill her mum. Her dad upon release applied and was accepted as a vicar, he was then caught out 2 years later for cheating on his entrance exam!

Church's view on science - galileo was accused of heresy for his theories on terrestrial dynamics- and found guilty (not cleared formally until 1992)

Churches decadance - been to rome seen the vatican, disgusted by the money spent.

Certain offshoots of religions and their fanatical views - Plymouth brethren, jehovahs and many more.

Edit as a side note I have taught at a roman catholic school, I had to get them to do their prayer 3 times a day - but the chilfren were well behaved and had respect.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
my personal problem with at least my family's church is that the confirmation process is (purposely, i believe) begun far too young (junior high school). they do it at an age when the kid is "supposed" to be able to make these choices for themselves, but is still too young to be willing to risk the disapproval of both his family and all the members of his church if he/she decides not to go through with it. although i obviously wasn't "forced" to go through confirmation, i really had no choice because i, like most "good" kids at that age, wasn't willing to disappoint my parents or risk having them punish me because i said "no." a lot of my friends feel the same way, looking back on it. even if we did want to go through with it, we were still far to young to be making that kind of choice. it was the religous equivilent of statutory rape. i didn't start to form any of my own ideas about spirituality until a decade later (although perhaps the gap was the result of a kneejerk reaction). not that i expect sympathy from anyone, and i'm not exactly scarred by the experience, but it was definetly wrong. i had to stand in front of hundreds of people and pledge myself to something i didn't believe in, and i was too young to be able to stand up for myself.

Same here. I am technically a "confirmed" Catholic, but I too feel that when you go through the motions of a ritual that means nothing to you, it's not binding. In reality I am an Agnostic; the question of whether or not there is a God is one in which the answer has no relevence to my life. However, I believe that all religions are equally stupid.

I too am a 'confirmed' Catholic and I feel the same way. I really didn't support or believe any of the stuff that I was saying, but I did it to satisfy my parents. I was actually at a point then where I actually disliked the idea, but I didn't want to make my parents unhappy.

 

[Riprorin]

To base your view of a religion on those who propose to be adherents of that religion seems rather foolish to me. A more rational way of assessing a belief systems is to learn more about the beliefs themselves.

Many people don't want to be accountable, so they find convenient excuses for ignoring God.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Millennium
The one thing holding me back from going to church is that I can't honestly agree with some of the moral viewpoints that they take. I don't believe drinking is wrong. I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong. I don't believe that profanity is going to condemn me to eternal damnation either.

there is the perfectly shown example of what is wrong with most denominations. what they believe. guess what, God isn't going to care one bit what you believe on judgement day, but whether or not you've done as he commands (not what individuals believe)

that granted, some things in the Bible are not definately stated "thou shall not...". thus open to some interpretation. but LIMITED interpretation as some leaway is too extreme.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Millennium
The one thing holding me back from going to church is that I can't honestly agree with some of the moral viewpoints that they take. I don't believe drinking is wrong. I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong. I don't believe that profanity is going to condemn me to eternal damnation either.

there is the perfectly shown example of what is wrong with most denominations. what they believe. guess what, God isn't going to care one bit what you believe on judgement day, but whether or not you've done as he commands (not what individuals believe)

that granted, some things in the Bible are not definately stated "thou shall not...". thus open to some interpretation. but LIMITED interpretation as some leaway is too extreme.

WHO decides what he commands?

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Millennium
The one thing holding me back from going to church is that I can't honestly agree with some of the moral viewpoints that they take. I don't believe drinking is wrong. I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong. I don't believe that profanity is going to condemn me to eternal damnation either.

there is the perfectly shown example of what is wrong with most denominations. what they believe. guess what, God isn't going to care one bit what you believe on judgement day, but whether or not you've done as he commands (not what individuals believe)

that granted, some things in the Bible are not definately stated "thou shall not...". thus open to some interpretation. but LIMITED interpretation as some leaway is too extreme.

WHO decides what he commands?

Simple answer to a simple question. He does. Read the bible to read his word.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Millennium
The one thing holding me back from going to church is that I can't honestly agree with some of the moral viewpoints that they take. I don't believe drinking is wrong. I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong. I don't believe that profanity is going to condemn me to eternal damnation either.

there is the perfectly shown example of what is wrong with most denominations. what they believe. guess what, God isn't going to care one bit what you believe on judgement day, but whether or not you've done as he commands (not what individuals believe)

that granted, some things in the Bible are not definately stated "thou shall not...". thus open to some interpretation. but LIMITED interpretation as some leaway is too extreme.

WHO decides what he commands?

Simple answer to a simple question. He does. Read the bible to read his word.

Which translation, and why?

 

[petrek]

King James Bible. Word for word translation from original Hebrew and Greek.

Dave

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: petrek
King James Bible. Word for word translation from original Hebrew and Greek.

Dave

correct. however some of the wording can be hard to interpret, so for those instances I'd recommend looking at the verses in the New King James.

 

[Mill]

Want to list some verses that say drinking, homosexuality, and profanity are wrong? To me it seems like the Bible is open to interpretation.

 

[luv2chill]

Originally posted by: Millennium
Want to list some verses that say drinking, homosexuality, and profanity are wrong? To me it seems like the Bible is open to interpretation.

...and no Leviticus quotes!!

l2c

 

[petrek]

correct. however some of the wording can be hard to interpret, so for those instances I'd recommend looking at the verses in the New King James.

I think looking them up in a few commentaries (preferably older ones) is the best way to get a sense for the meaning.

Dave