long post coming, watch out.
Originally posted by: BatmanNate
Here is my basic take on Christianity copy/pasted from my post in reitz's "deconversion" thread:
I suppose the only place to start would be to paint somewhat of a picture of my childhood. I was raised by two parents who had been religious their entire lives, raised by two sets of grandparents who were as well. I'm not talking about just on Sundays and not in a strictly ceremonial fashion, but I believe that they both honestly believed in what they embraced as faith and made it the basis of their lives to the best of their abilities. I grew up in a Baptist church until the age of 12 or so, where upon moving we joined the Evangelical Free denomination of church. Neither were particularly consipicuous as far as denominational deviances go, both pretty much run of the mill protestant flavor. I attended that church until I was 17, moving out on my own shortly thereafter.
What caused you to question your beliefs?
It was not so much one event in particular, but more so the culmination of a lifetime up until that point of having dwelt on the facts, the nature of the people who embraced what I believed, my own experience with God, the church, and the life that had been chosen for me up to that point, and a chain of events with the "leadership" of the church body with which I was affiliated with when my dissent began to outweigh my belief, so to speak.
Firstly, I have been a person of inquisitive nature from birth, like a child to this day in the respect that my curiousity often gets away with me. Always the asker of questions, I had tendency to pose conundrums to those, much more learned that myself in the ways of Religion and the world with questions that build the very foundation of a concrete belief system like that of a child.
Having mustered the necessary "faith" (with doubt as my predecessor) to cross the gap and simply turn a blind eye to the earlier riddles of religion that had failed to make sense to me as a child, I began grasping for an understanding of basic premises upon which my beliefs were founded. Take, for example, that which proclaims we are all born sinners, guilty from birth and predestined to stay that way, only to be redeemed by the grace of God should we accept. Several points about this philosophy bothered me, aside from the more obvious that I had conquered with feats of faith pertaining to the existence of God himself and the legitimacy of his sovreignty upon this place.
- First, the idea that we are created in God's image, yet it is destined that none should live up to his standards. From God's perspective, why? You'd have to be an egomaniac to create the sort of scenario where you have billions of impaired versions of yourself utterly dependent on you to be saved from certain death that you've made for them. Not to imply that I could ever fathom the mind of an omnipotent diety, that was just my take as a mere human. Beyond that, there is the classic debate of free will vs. predestination and I am convinced after much study that they indeed cannot coexist because they are in direct contradiction.
first point of mine - we ARE created in God's image. however, the original man, Adam, who was a perfect image of God, sinned, because he could not control himself, and neither could his wife, Eve. It's not God's fault that WE screwed up, it's like blaming your parents for getting in trouble, because they gave birth to you. however, redemption is quite available, and easy to attain.
as for free will vs. predestination - God knows what's going to happen. it could be called a "prediction", but He is 100% sure of it, because quite simply, He is God.
- Second, if our nature is to blame for our sinfulness, what does that say about God's own image? What does that say about the impact of our choices as to our character? Sin is our nature, but it is also a conscious choice we must make in order to receive punishment for it, no? And why is so much that is in our nature to be called sin? Rationally, our nature lends itself toward our survival, our procreation, and our advancement. Why call that which is seemingly virtuous our vice so to have us deny ourselves in hope that our reward lay in an afterlife we cannot be wholy assured of? Who benefits from this? Would it be wise to wish to serve a God with this agenda? The Catholic church in times long past (and perhaps some not so long past) used traits of our nature as cause for guilt, so as to govern the population as they saw fit and much destruction came of it. Why should we be guilty for something that not only we cannot change, but is logically something we should cherish and take pride in?
We cannot change our sinful nature, but you cannot argue that those who give into their sinful desires can take pride in their actions. Hitler. Stalin. The average drunkard/wino on the street.
However, I must side with you in that I do not believe making people feel guilty for their actions is an effective way to make them change it. Change their mentality, their outlook to coincide with God's, and they will revert to what is right.
- Lastly on this subject, how can we accept the sacrifice of a man 2000 years ago who was without what we deem to be sin as payment for our own? How does that absolve my wickedness and my deviance should I just choose to accept something that was never mine to give? Where is my responsibility for my own?
Christ was sinless. keep that in the back of your head.
Before Christ, we were a sinful race, much like after. The price of sin is death - blood must be spilled, to make up for the sin. Thus, the Israelites sacrificed an innocent animal, spilling its innocent blood, as an offering to God, hoping for his forgiveness.
Of course, the animal was innocent, because it had not commited sin. It has no soul, no capacity to relate to God, or to commit evil, to intentionally cause harm.
When Christ came, He did not commit sin. He was innocent, He did not have to die. However, He did - the equivalent of a sacrificial lamb, and the spilling of His blood atoned for our sins. It does not make you innocent of your sin, nor does it erase the fact that you DID sin. However, His innocent shed blood is accompanied the forgiveness of God, if you should so accept it.
Then, there was the perverse sense of justice that prevailed throughout everything that I knew about the God that I tried to love and fear at the same time, for we were taught to desire a personal relationship with our creator who had infinite love for us. I never questioned why God would let tradgedy happen, that was just the nature of life and part of a plan I could not see wholly nor understand. However, these ideas nagged at the back of my mind relentlessly, though I was not always aware of them their presence weighed greater on me than I knew at the time:
Why is there evil in the world? Quite simple. Because God's medium for spreading good, people, have not reached it yet. If you think about it, cold is just the absence of molecular activity, dark is the absence of light. cold and dark are not entities in themself, can cannot "create" cold or dark, you can only remove heat and light. likewise, evil is the name we give to the absence of good.
- There is an incalculable amount of people who have never heard the Christian gospel, because they existed before Christ, because they were geographically isolated, or simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do all of these people go to Hell because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Before Christ, redemption was gained through sacrifice and moral living, abiding by Jewish law. Christ came, and he changed all that - the laws of old were no longer absolutely necessary to be saved.
- Expanding upon the first point, what of all the other religions, some of them strikingly similar in moral premises to Christianity, were they merely incarnations of the same to cater to those who were not privy to the the "good news" because of afformentioned issues? If so, why does one religion condemn the next? Why does the good man go to Hell and the evil man reformed not? Was the conivery of man present in the history of all these reilgions that caused them to schism into rival factions only to end up debating the unimportant details until they had atrophied into blasphemous machines that missed the entire point?
No religions are the same as Christianity. Look at all other religions. All state that "to get to heaven, you must follow this set of rules: ____". Christianity states "If you wish to go to heaven, just ask, and it shall be given to you". no other religious figure, not Mohammed, not Buddha, not any Hindu god, died for the people they were trying to save, none of them took pain upon themself to DIRECTLY save people.
- The Bible says to rely not upon your own understanding but to trust in God. Following this train of logic, assume you are presented with 3 different religions that all tell you that, only with a different God at the head of each. If your own understanding, provided you in creation by God himself, who must have given us the power of logic, reason, epistemology, and perception, is not to be relied upon, then how am I to decide which religion is correct? They all tell me to believe blindly but without proof, I am at an impass. Why give us the basis to form knowledge logicaly if it is only to go to waste so we may play roulette with our very souls?
You're missing the point of the Bible, and as such, this paragraph is superfluous, and your argument is invalid.
- On Heaven and Hell. From my personal experience, the biggest motivator in my religious life was aversion of Hell. Sure, I wanted to be like Jesus because he was a pretty cool guy and loving my neighbor was something to strive for for certain, but as they say, fear is the greatest motivator. In honest consideration, I would not really want to go to heaven either. Living enternally is something too vast for me to even contemplate, and I am not sure that I would want that "gift" were it offered to me. Life is a beautiful thing, partly so because of the perceived brevity. And were I to go to heaven, what would there be for me? If all that my body and mind which are inseperable in this place desire are denied me in heaven because they are vice, and so if I am to enter heaven I should not desire them any longer, what is my motivation? To worship someone for eternity? Selflessness looks nice at a glance but practically speaking it does not work. People look out for themselves, they work for themselves, they achieve for everything that represents themselves and what they love which is a reflection of the value of the self, so what then do we seek with an eternity of serving our brothers and our masters if not for the mere pleasure of doing so? It does not add up.
The greatest motivation to do what is right should not be to avoid punishment - if you accidentially hit someone, most people would go to help them. not because they want to avoid being prosecuted, but because they know that if they do, good things will come about. However, I cannot change the fact that the former was what you believed as a child, because the Catholic church has such widesread influence. it's more or less tradition to tell people about Hell before Heaven.
as for not wanting to live forever - if you believe that life is more valuable because you have a finite amount, then so be it. However, I for one, relish the experience of living enough that if I coudl live forever, with friends and family, then I would take it up immediately. being with them, and worshipping the One who created me would only be a plus. I already know the feeling of joy that comes from worship, and I can only look forward to the manyfold more joyful experience of Heaven.
How did you arrive at atheism [edit] (or your new set of beliefs)?
The straw that broke the camel's back in my life was the administration of the church which I was a member of toward the end of my teen years. Many events took place that added to the camel's load and soiled the view of organized religion's plausible benefits in my eyes. For one, the youth pastor who had been at the church for the entire time that I had been there was a man who had earnestly earned my respect. He carried himself in a way that did not ask nor demand it, yet it was impossible for me not to. He was probably more like Jesus Christ than any other man I'd known; but he was still human. Had a good heart, was an excellent teacher, and very good at his job. He however developed feelings for one of the women who also worked in youth at that church, and although it never led to anything he was a married man. He repented this publicly to the pastor and the church and the woman involved and was forgiven by some, detested by others. He was an honest man yet he was cast out because he was trying to live what he believed and they were too blind and righteous to accept that. That allowed me to see a peice of what little faith I had in men to begin with crumble away.
In this case, your congregation failed to live up to what they preached. I'm sorry for you, really. They lost sight of the theme that runs throughout all of Christianity - that the blood of Christ forgives all.
I began to realize that was merely a reflection of what little faith I had in the whole system which the very basis of reeked of the invention of man in the first place, but alas I did not see the whole picture then as I still probably do not.
After the youth pastor was gone, a good percentage of the congregation left with him, as they were divided over the issue and niether side was satisfied with the other's conclusion. What was left was no more than a conglamoration of modern day Pharisees now that I mull it over, and I did not fit in. They did not approve of my questions, my budding philosophy as a result of those questions, the way I dressed, the music I listened to, the people with whom I would associate (those whom Jesus had in mind when he told his buddies to become fishers of men...well, those were the men, we were the men) and most of all, my relationship with my girlfriend who also attended the church at the time. Her parents were a set of completely ignorant zealots who used the religious angle as nothing more than a crutch on which to lean in order to keep their archiac way of life and family structure inline. Sexist, racist, abusive idealists who considered themselves ordained because of the luck of the draw, you know the type. I am amazed such an amazing woman managed to grow out of that household after years of healing the damage that it caused, and I am with her still today.
Good job, I wish you the best. I have my opinions of your wife/fiance/girlfriend's parents, but as it is based on hearsay, I will not express them.
Back to the subject at hand, her parents and the church could not come to terms with the fact that her and I loved one another and did not intend to disband at their whim. This only made things infinitely more complicated and members of the church administrative body tended to become involved where they had no business being. More of my (and her) faith seeped away but there was nobody there to care where it was going as they all had their ulterior motives for the most part.
After that, upon graduating high school I moved out, worked hard, built a life for myself, and devoted a great deal of my time to reading and indepedent study. I will not say that I am an Atheist for I am not one to come to a conclusion which cannot be proven, I suppose Agnostic fits better but not in the cliche sense of the term. It is not a clause I put myself under to avoid the hard questions, to avoid thinking, to avoid choosing. We are little more than the sum of our choices after all. I merely hope that if there is some sort of all powerful all knowing force behind this broken mess that those of us who are meant to portray it are not accurate. I will say that logically every fibre in my body leans toward the conclusion that God is merely man's scapegoat for the results of one scheme or another gone awry, and has little more use in modern day life than to sway people politically or to give hope to those with little understanding and lots of imagination. If it works for you, more power to you but let me tell you brother I've been there and I earnestly tried with every drop of blood in my viens to seek what there was to be sought and I came away empty.
What was the transition like? Was it stressful? Was it difficult? Was it a long, drawn-out process, or a quick epiphany?
Long perhaps. Strenuous emotionally at times. Not completely over with for better or for worse. I would not change a thing in hindsight however.
How did your family, friends, and loved-ones react to your newfound [dis]belief?
My better half was very understanding as she is at perhaps a different place of the same journey herself partly as a result of our shared experience and partly as a result of her's growing up. We do the best to support one another and I try as honestly as I know how to answer her questions in the matter. She has become a very mature person and none the less loving for certain as a result of shying away from long held beliefs. My friends are for the most part open minded if they don't share similar beliefs which many don't and we generally have discussions that we both come away from the better as a result of it. My immediate family on the other hand, I never told them directly of my decisions in this matter, although it is no doubt my life reflects it in many ways. They must know, but they are probably afraid to admit it as it might seem to be failure on their part, however I feel it is the opposite. They helped me keep a level head growing up, and I'm using it. I think they will understand one day. Perhaps this life has worked for them and that is what matters.
How has it impacted your outlook on life?
Vastly is the only way I have of describing it. I thought I'd become more of a cynic but since I've always been such a cynic that hasn't really changed. Everything else has, though. I have hope now that I hadn't before. I have confidence in myself that I had not previously known. I realize that I love my life, I enjoy it immensly, and that is not worth trading in for a life of misery in hopes that the afterlife will see me in a better position. I rely on myself and that is enough. I give faith no longer, but trust on a value for value basis. I realize that dissent is not by nature something to fear and to forget, but to embrace and dig for the root of. I also understand now that I can not hold contradicting ideas in my mind without being mislead as to the premise of one or the other, for contradictions do not occur naturally. That gives me a great deal of peace of mind, and I celebrate that mind not as a gift but as something that I have earned of my own accord.
This has probably been my longest post ever on these forums and I hope only that it can help one of you. I do not aim to change you or to make you like me, this is just my expereince and how it has worked for me, take it as you will for whatever it is worth. Good thread, reitz.
meh. I don't know what to say in conclusion, but I hope I've answered at least some of the issues brought up here.
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