A thread about Christianity

[Mill]

I was watching a Documentary earlier on the Sundance channel about a church's Hell House and I got to thinking. I grew up in church and so did a vast majority of my family. I haven't gone much(except when my mother asks me to) since I was 16/17, but this Documentary really got me thinking. There was a group of kids on the show that disagreed with how the church portrayed events in their hellhouse. They said that religion was being forced down their throats yet they are the ones that went to the Hell House. Considering it was built on the back of a Christian Bookstore there is no way they were somehow tricked into going. In my 16/17 years in church I never had a person force me to believe in anything or condemn me when I did something wrong. I received a lot of compassion, some great friends, and a sense of well-being when I went to church. Where are these Christians that force their beliefs on people? They may witness but I never see the sheer brutality of it all like some allege here.

I am just wondering why people have a problem with Christianity? How exactly does it bother you if someone wants to do their own thing? How does it bother you went they invite you to experience the joy they have? I am not saying that there isn't Christians out there that do go over the line. I am sure there are some that do, but they are a minority that gives the rest of Christians a bad name. For the record I don't consider myself a Christian, but tonight I started thinking about how I sort of missed church. I miss the camaraderie and the good people. I have good friends now, but oddly enough MOST of them are ones that I met in Church and drifted away like me. The one thing holding me back from going to church is that I can't honestly agree with some of the moral viewpoints that they take. I don't believe drinking is wrong. I don't believe that homosexuality is wrong. I don't believe that profanity is going to condemn me to eternal damnation either. Now, I guess what this thread is about is your experiences and how your moral beliefs conflict with those of your church and what you have done about it. Have you been able to find a suitable church or do you just not go? I do, however, believe in Creationism to some degree because I think evolutionary theory doesn't properly account for the start of the earth. I don't really want debate about that aspect, so I hope we can keep that out of this thread. I have a lot of questions and conflict right now so any helpful and on-topic comments are appreciated. Lets not turn this into a flamewar so everybody play nice(funny coming from me eh?).

PMs are welcome if you don't feel like giving your beliefs here or if you want to talk to me privately.

Evan

 

[Francodman]

Oooh you signed this post with your first name, this must be important *reads*

free bump i guess.

 

[So]

1. I just plain haven't seen enough evidence to prove to me that there is a god.
2. Assuming there is a god, why would he be concerned whether or not I worshipped him? Organized seems like a construct of humans looking for power. A rational god would only care wether or not I led a good life (i.e. did no harm to others).
3. Maintaining the assumption that there is a god, and adding the assumption he wants me to worship in a church, etc, why should I? I would be happier rotting in hell, knowing that I had beaten an omnipotent being because I didn't submit to his irrational demand that I bow before him.

 

[So]

As for religious people, although I disagree with them philosophically, I don't begrudge them their beliefs. I don't think a religious person is below me, nor do I immeadiately dislike one. As a matter of fact, I have a number of Christian friends, as well as friends of other faiths. I, in fact, have met people who are devout Christians and feel that they cannot spend time with me unless I share their beliefs. It is these people whose respect I do not care for.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: So
1. I just plain haven't seen enough evidence to prove to me that there is a god.
2. Assuming there is a god, why would he be concerned whether or not I worshipped him? Organized seems like a construct of humans looking for power. A rational god would only care wether or not I led a good life (i.e. did no harm to others).
3. Maintaining the assumption that there is a god, and adding the assumption he wants me to worship in a church, etc, why should I? I would be happier rotting in hell, knowing that I had beaten an omnipotent being because I didn't submit to his irrational demand that I bow before him.

Ok, thanks for your thoughts, but that isn't really what I am looking for. My thread is supposed to presuppose that I do believe in God, but I am talking more about the church aspect of it instead of whether or not God exists. Regardless, I appreciate the thoughts and please feel free to keep contributing. I do want to address you points real quick though.

1. Right... but that isn't the issue for me. I do believe he exists.
2. I am going by the accepted Christian view of the Bible and the idea that organized worship is a good thing.
3. Because that doesn't really help me in what I want to do. I don't want to pull one over on an omnipotent being.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: So
As for religious people, although I disagree with them philosophically, I don't begrudge them their beliefs. I don't think a religious person is below me, nor do I immeadiately dislike one. As a matter of fact, I have a number of Christian friends, as well as friends of other faiths. I, in fact, have met people who are devout Christians and feel that they cannot spend time with me unless I share their beliefs. It is these people whose respect I do not care for.

Ok, that is what I am looking for. What have some of those people said? How did you feel afterwords?

 

[amcdonald]

There are a handful of christians who seem to make it their determination to make the other 95% of christians look like jerks.
There's a huge difference in asking someone if they want to come to church sometime and telling them they are going to hell.
I don't get how these people don't understand how insulting it can be to hear someone say that to you.
Of course if you don't believe in god it should be no big deal to hear that you are going to go to a hell that doesn't exist.
I don't fear punishment from a hindu god, so if a hindu for whatever reason told me I deserved said punishment, I would ignore it without a second thought.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: amcdonald
There are a handful of christians who seem to make it their determination to make the other 95% of christians look like jerks.
There's a huge difference in asking someone if they want to come to church sometime and telling them they are going to hell.
I don't get how these people don't understand how insulting it can be to hear someone say that to you.
Of course if you don't believe in god it should be no big deal to hear that you are going to go to a hell that doesn't exist.
I don't fear punishment from a hindu god, so if a hindu for whatever reason told me I deserved said punishment, I would ignore it without a second thought.

Awesome. This is again exactly what I am looking for. Do you believe in God? Do you consider yourself a Christian? How often do you ecounter those people? Just 5% of the time?

Thanks

 

[Maleficus]

I don't think christianity is bad or wrong.

I've been raised a catholic but i don't really agree with a lot of the beliefs. Church is just redundant events. No camraderie. No sense of well being. No lesson. No learning. Redundance.

There are and will always be zealots in each and every group, people will 9/10 times pick the zealot to represent the group. Religion is something most people feel strongly about whether it be for against or indifferent. Whether people admit it or not (this is my personal opinion of course) it is a core belief that we base a lot upon.

 

[Blain]

"I would be happier rotting in hell, knowing that I had beaten an omnipotent being because I didn't submit to his irrational demand that I bow before him."

Couldn't a prisoner on death row say the same thing about his situation? "Cool... I'm stickin' it to the man!"

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

 

[Kadarin]

I do, however, believe in Creationism to some degree because I think evolutionary theory doesn't properly account for the start of the earth.

Not to harp on you or anything, but in my opinion the choice to ditch evolutionary theory entirely on whatever inconsistency for Creationism (which is supported mostly, if not completely, by words written in the Bible) doesn't strike me as completely logical. It would make more sense to modify evolutionary theory as needed based on any new facts that arise. It is also perfectly acceptable to simply say that you don't know, and to not have a personal belief as to how the earth was formed and how humans got here.

What is a "Hell House"?

The problem that I have with Christianity is the same that I have with Islam: It's largely intolerant of people who don't see eye to eye.

 

[gopunk]

I am just wondering why people have a problem with Christianity? How exactly does it bother you if someone wants to do their own thing?

i don't think many of us would care if christians kept their religion to themselves... but that is simply not the case... our money, our pledge of allegience, etc. have all been changed to exhibit a christian viewpoint.

How does it bother you went they invite you to experience the joy they have?

ever get a call from a telemarketer? that is seriously how it feels, at least to me. i've been the attempted recipient of conversions way more than once, yet they'll never believe me when i tell them that i've heard everything they could possibly have to say to me.

I do, however, believe in Creationism to some degree because I think evolutionary theory doesn't properly account for the start of the earth. I don't really want debate about that aspect, so I hope we can keep that out of this thread.

not to start a debate, but evolutionary theory was never meant to account for the start of the earth... just the start of life.

Now, I guess what this thread is about is your experiences and how your moral beliefs conflict with those of your church and what you have done about it. Have you been able to find a suitable church or do you just not go?

well a lot of my behavior and the end result of my beliefs is consistent with the church... as in i believe drugs should be taken as sparingly as possible because nobody knows everything they do, which results in not doing recreational drugs. not because i think they're immoral, but because i don't think the risk they pose is worth whatever benefit they might have. but not going to church, for me, is more a function of not believing in god in the first place. i don't mind going to a service on a religious basis, because it's just a bunch of people talking, i only object because it's tremendously boring to a non-believer and seems like a waste of time. okay i'm just rambling.. i guess i can't help that much because i never really was a believer to begin with, sorry 'bout that.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: So
As for religious people, although I disagree with them philosophically, I don't begrudge them their beliefs. I don't think a religious person is below me, nor do I immeadiately dislike one. As a matter of fact, I have a number of Christian friends, as well as friends of other faiths. I, in fact, have met people who are devout Christians and feel that they cannot spend time with me unless I share their beliefs. It is these people whose respect I do not care for.

Ok, that is what I am looking for. What have some of those people said? How did you feel afterwords?

Well, I don't have specific quotes, since It has been a few months since I have spent time with any of these people (Back home from college for the summer), but I have one friend whose strategy is to slip little things in to conversation, kind of to sneak you up to christianity. I don't hold any grudge against him and I just ignore such comments.

My ex-girlfriend, however, became fervently religious in the middle of our fairly short relationship, and would attack my views verbally (which is why I used the word fervent), and even though she respected my views I could not talk about any sort of philosophy or many scientifc discussions without being yelled at. I ended up leaving feeling a bit hurt, because I felt that I was expected to respect her views, she wasn't expected to respect mine. Although this is clearly a personality issue, at least in part, I have gotten similar vibes from other Christians that the fact that I disagree with their views bothers them, and I have heard similar stories from other non-christians.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: gopunk

I am just wondering why people have a problem with Christianity? How exactly does it bother you if someone wants to do their own thing?

i don't think many of us would care if christians kept their religion to themselves... but that is simply not the case... our money, our pledge of allegience, etc. have all been changed to exhibit a christian viewpoint.

How does it bother you went they invite you to experience the joy they have?

ever get a call from a telemarketer? that is seriously how it feels, at least to me. i've been the attempted recipient of conversions way more than once, yet they'll never believe me when i tell them that i've heard everything they could possibly have to say to me.

I do, however, believe in Creationism to some degree because I think evolutionary theory doesn't properly account for the start of the earth. I don't really want debate about that aspect, so I hope we can keep that out of this thread.

not to start a debate, but evolutionary theory was never meant to account for the start of the earth... just the start of life.

Now, I guess what this thread is about is your experiences and how your moral beliefs conflict with those of your church and what you have done about it. Have you been able to find a suitable church or do you just not go?

well a lot of my behavior and the end result of my beliefs is consistent with the church... as in i believe drugs should be taken as sparingly as possible because nobody knows everything they do, which results in not doing recreational drugs. not because i think they're immoral, but because i don't think the risk they pose is worth whatever benefit they might have. but not going to church, for me, is more a function of not believing in god in the first place. i don't mind going to a service on a religious basis, because it's just a bunch of people talking, i only object because it's tremendously boring to a non-believer and seems like a waste of time. okay i'm just rambling.. i guess i can't help that much because i never really was a believer to begin with, sorry 'bout that.

How is Christians spreading their beliefs any different that Republicans and Democrats spreading theirs? They have pamphlets and monuments put up of their greatest members. Sorta the same thing to me. I guess I can understand you find it offensive, but in the same way don't you think there are lots of people that find certain ways of life offensive? Cussing and drinking are offensive to some but people just learn to deal with it.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: Blain
"I would be happier rotting in hell, knowing that I had beaten an omnipotent being because I didn't submit to his irrational demand that I bow before him."

Couldn't a prisoner on death row say the same thing about his situation? "Cool... I'm stickin' it to the man!"

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

yea... but it wouldn't be quite the same because the prisoner had presumably done something wrong, something to hurt others. though i guess from a christian standpoint, not believing is wrong. but from an atheist standpoint, it would be like if plea bargaining would get you out of a death sentence but you know you were innocent so you refuse to plea bargain and thus get sent to the chair.

 

[dartworth]

Originally posted by: amcdonald
There are a handful of christians who seem to make it their determination to make the other 95% of christians look like jerks.
There's a huge difference in asking someone if they want to come to church sometime and telling them they are going to hell.
I don't get how these people don't understand how insulting it can be to hear someone say that to you.
Of course if you don't believe in god it should be no big deal to hear that you are going to go to a hell that doesn't exist.
I don't fear punishment from a hindu god, so if a hindu for whatever reason told me I deserved said punishment, I would ignore it without a second thought.

You'll have the certain percentage in all religions that make everyone look bad.

My parents are Christians. I was raised in a Christian home. They still attend church, and I don't. I can tell this does trouble my parents, but they don't try and force anything on me. I rdon't believe that one must attend to church to be a Christian. Being a Christian is having a personal relationship with God on some level. Well that is the way I was brought up.

As I have gotten older and go through different things, it really has put my faith to the test. I really don't know what I believe anymore. I get so caught up in life with work and just every day events that I just kind of push it off to the side.

We are having our first child this winter. This topic has crossed my mind. How am I going to bring my child up. What are we going to teach them...


I don't know, I'm just rambling now...5am and this is gettin' deep

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

I do, however, believe in Creationism to some degree because I think evolutionary theory doesn't properly account for the start of the earth.

Not to harp on you or anything, but in my opinion the choice to ditch evolutionary theory entirely on whatever inconsistency for Creationism (which is supported mostly, if not completely, by words written in the Bible) doesn't strike me as completely logical. It would make more sense to modify evolutionary theory as needed based on any new facts that arise. It is also perfectly acceptable to simply say that you don't know, and to not have a personal belief as to how the earth was formed and how humans got here.

What is a "Hell House"?

The problem that I have with Christianity is the same that I have with Islam: It's largely intolerant of people who don't see eye to eye.

To me Creationism is the most logical thing considering we don't know. I do believe humans have evolved over time. How could anyone think different when you think of Cro-Magnon man and Neanderthals. But that doesn't mean that I don't think SOMETHING had to create that first man. gopunk said that Evolutionary theory doesn't say it created the earth so I will say ok to that. What does say it knows though? The Big-Bang theory?

Personally I don't know what happens, but the only thing that makes sense to me is that some higher being created the earth.

 

[amcdonald]

Originally posted by: Millennium
Awesome. This is again exactly what I am looking for. Do you believe in God? Do you consider yourself a Christian? How often do you ecounter those people? Just 5% of the time?

Thanks

I'm a christian, and I really don't run into people like I described that often. Its sad to see it though. I hang out with all kinds of people, and I can't stand the self-righteous/judgemental type. Judgemental people aren't exclusively christian though... you'll find many an athiest who would consider someone an idiot just because they believe in something greater than themselves. That's what I used to think.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: jfano

Originally posted by: amcdonald
There are a handful of christians who seem to make it their determination to make the other 95% of christians look like jerks.
There's a huge difference in asking someone if they want to come to church sometime and telling them they are going to hell.
I don't get how these people don't understand how insulting it can be to hear someone say that to you.
Of course if you don't believe in god it should be no big deal to hear that you are going to go to a hell that doesn't exist.
I don't fear punishment from a hindu god, so if a hindu for whatever reason told me I deserved said punishment, I would ignore it without a second thought.

You'll have the certain percentage in all religions that make everyone look bad.

My parents are Christians. I was raised in a Christian home. They still attend church, and I don't. I can tell this does trouble my parents, but they don't try and force anything on me. I rdon't believe that one must attend to church to be a Christian. Being a Christian is having a personal relationship with God on some level. Well that is the way I was brought up.

As I have gotten older and go through different things, it really has put my faith to the test. I really don't know what I believe anymore. I get so caught up in life with work and just every day events that I just kind of push it off to the side.

We are having our first child this winter. This topic has crossed my mind. How am I going to bring my child up. What are we going to teach them...


I don't know, I'm just rambling now...5am and this is gettin' deep

See the same for me. I am so caught up in everyday life that I just don't ever think about religion anymore although it comes up from time to time. Now, lately I have been feeling a little more unhappy than normal and a lot of my friends have moved back to school for the semester so I have had more time to do thinking.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: Blain
"I would be happier rotting in hell, knowing that I had beaten an omnipotent being because I didn't submit to his irrational demand that I bow before him."

Couldn't a prisoner on death row say the same thing about his situation? "Cool... I'm stickin' it to the man!"

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

yea... but it wouldn't be quite the same because the prisoner had presumably done something wrong, something to hurt others. though i guess from a christian standpoint, not believing is wrong. but from an atheist standpoint, it would be like if plea bargaining would get you out of a death sentence but you know you were innocent so you refuse to plea bargain and thus get sent to the chair.

That would be a better analogy, plus I did not mention earlier that I do hold an objective system of morals -- remember, not accepting the idea of god does not necessarily remove morality. There are, IMO, morals that exist in the same way that the laws of physics exist. The morals however are essentially similar to the Golden Rule -- don't infringe on my freedom and I won't infringe on yours. And by freedom, I don't mean fake freedom like 'financial freedom' I mean Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: amcdonald

Originally posted by: Millennium
Awesome. This is again exactly what I am looking for. Do you believe in God? Do you consider yourself a Christian? How often do you ecounter those people? Just 5% of the time?

Thanks

I'm a christian, and I really don't run into people like I described that often. Its sad to see it though. I hang out with all kinds of people, and I can't stand the self-righteous/judgemental type. Judgemental people aren't exclusively christian though... you'll find many an athiest who would consider someone an idiot just because they believe in something greater than themselves. That's what I used to think.

Yah, that is my experience as well. I always pawned it off as just judgmental people in general and never considered their religion as part of it.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: amcdonald

Originally posted by: Millennium
Awesome. This is again exactly what I am looking for. Do you believe in God? Do you consider yourself a Christian? How often do you ecounter those people? Just 5% of the time?

Thanks

I'm a christian, and I really don't run into people like I described that often. Its sad to see it though. I hang out with all kinds of people, and I can't stand the self-righteous/judgemental type. Judgemental people aren't exclusively christian though... you'll find many an athiest who would consider someone an idiot just because they believe in something greater than themselves. That's what I used to think.

Yah, that is my experience as well. I always pawned it off as just judgmental people in general and never considered their religion as part of it.

That is a good point. I agree (and maybe we all can) that Judgemental people are the root of the problem, not Christianity in its ideal vision. It seems that the vision you hold, Millenium, is a fair and decent one.

 

[Blain]

"The morals however are essentially similar to the Golden Rule -- don't infringe on my freedom and I won't infringe on yours."

That's really not the theme of the Golden Rule. What you've described is a more "tit for tat" world view.
The Golden Rule doesn't allow for retaliation in the case of another doing you wrong.

 

[Mill]

BTW, Astaroth a hellhouse is like a situational drama in which people's choices result in either heaven or hell. Basically you build a set with different rooms and there are actors in each room. Each one commits a sin: rape, abortion, homosexuality, etc and then they are basically given the choice to repent. Maybe google has more because I don't know of a better way to explain it.

That is not to say I consider homosexuality as a sin.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

I do, however, believe in Creationism to some degree because I think evolutionary theory doesn't properly account for the start of the earth.

Not to harp on you or anything, but in my opinion the choice to ditch evolutionary theory entirely on whatever inconsistency for Creationism (which is supported mostly, if not completely, by words written in the Bible) doesn't strike me as completely logical. It would make more sense to modify evolutionary theory as needed based on any new facts that arise. It is also perfectly acceptable to simply say that you don't know, and to not have a personal belief as to how the earth was formed and how humans got here.

What is a "Hell House"?

The problem that I have with Christianity is the same that I have with Islam: It's largely intolerant of people who don't see eye to eye.

To me Creationism is the most logical thing considering we don't know. I do believe humans have evolved over time. How could anyone think different when you think of Cro-Magnon man and Neanderthals. But that doesn't mean that I don't think SOMETHING had to create that first man. gopunk said that Evolutionary theory doesn't say it created the earth so I will say ok to that. What does say it knows though? The Big-Bang theory?

Personally I don't know what happens, but the only thing that makes sense to me is that some higher being created the earth.

I think it's possible that some higher power (not necessarily a "higher being" in the Judeo-Christian monotheistic tradition) may have created the universe, but given the size and location of Earth within that immensity, I also believe it's unlikely that such a higher power would have a personal interest in Earth itself or the beings that inhabit it. I also think it's utterly silly that such a higher power would require our adoration and worship.

Quoting Robert Heinlein, from the novel "Time Enough for Love":

The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, withou a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.