6yr old shoots teacher in Virgina.

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,433
6,090
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interchange said:
No we should have laws and should enforce sensible penalties consistently when crimes are committed.

And also harsh punishments are not effective criminal deterrents.
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When you posted: "Do you think that the Mom being prosecuted here will act as any kind of deterrent for future cases?" I saw the potential for Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, but I guessed as is usually the case with what you post that the vast potential for thoughtful discussion therein offered would pass by unnoticed.

For me the breadth and depths to which your question could lead were it to be considered carefully, implied to me at least that it was asked from a rare and complex understanding. I had hoped you would get a response from the person you asked. He's an interesting thinker, in my opinion.

Anyway, in my opinion, the whole forum could benefit from a single focus on your question. It relates profoundly, in my opinion, to a particular sickness that affects our culture and it is a real pleasure for me at least, to see what I consider to be a nuanced, dare I say enlightened, awareness driving the question.

For me, your question is not one I can answer with words as it involves a paradox that can't be resolved without a particular understanding at least in my opinion. Why would we punish bad behavior when bad behavior was created by punishment. The problem is that we do not separate the notion of punishment from guilt and revenge. Absent those emotions, punishment amounts to the least action needed to provide restraint. People cannot be free to harm others out of their own insanity.
 
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Pontius Dilate

Member
Mar 28, 2008
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Moonbeam said:
What does this sentence mean?



So if you wound your target instead of killing it you will just leave it to suffer and die perhaps days later? Hunting weapons generally fire 5 rounds and an ethical hunter would want to get off a second shot as quickly as possible. In anti gun crazed California the maximum is ten rounds except for tubular magazine rim fire rifles and shot guns for birds.

Your opinion, in my opinion is uninformed. Here is info from what you would regard as a biased source and one I would regard as more honest:

  • AR-15-platform rifles are among the most popular firearms being sold. They are today’s modern sporting rifle.
  • The AR in “AR-15” rifle stands for ArmaLite, after the company that developed it in the 1950s. “AR” does NOT stand for “assault rifle” or “automatic rifle.”
  • AR-15 and other semi-automatic rifles are NOT “assault weapons” or “assault rifles.” An assault rifle is fully automatic — a machine gun. Automatic firearms have been severely restricted from civilian ownership since 1934.
  • If someone calls an AR-15 or other semi-automatic rifle an “assault weapon,” he or she either supports banning these firearms or does not understand their function and sporting use, or both. Please correct them. “Assault weapon” is a political term created by California anti-gun legislators to ban some semi-automatic rifles there in the 1980s.
  • AR-15 and other types of semi-automatic rifles may look like military rifles, such as the M-16, but function like other semi-automatic civilian sporting firearms, firing only one round with each pull of the trigger.
  • Versions of modern sporting rifles are legal to own in most states, provided the purchaser passes the mandatory FBI background check required for all retail firearm purchasers.
  • Since the 19th century, civilian sporting rifles have evolved from their military predecessors. The modern sporting rifle simply follows that tradition.
  • These rifles’ accuracy, reliability, ruggedness and versatility serve target shooters and hunters well. They are true all-weather firearms.
  • Chamberings include .22 LR, .223 Rem (5.56 x 45mm), 6.8 SPC, .308 Win, .450 Bushmaster and about a dozen others. Pistol calibers such as 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are also available. There are even .410 shotgun versions.
  • These rifles are used for many different types of hunting, from varmint to big game. They’re used for target shooting and competitively in the national matches.
  • AR-15-style rifles are no more powerful than other hunting rifles of the same caliber and in most cases are chambered in calibers less powerful than common big-game hunting cartridges like the 30-06 Springfield and .300 Win. Mag.
  • The AR-15 platform is modular. Owners like being able to customize the firearm to suit their lawful needs.
  • And, they are a lot of fun to shoot!

They also do not have a 2nd amendment. A sure bet a fascist state will do is to ban private gun ownership.
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You should really learn to credit your sources when you copy-paste any significant amount of text, as you did above. Failing to do so is unethical and a form of dishonesty. Pretty amazing you consider the Firearm Industry Trade Association as a “more honest” or “less biased” source. But they say what you want to hear, so good for you I guess.
 
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M

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Pontius Dilate said:
You should really learn to credit your sources when you copy-paste any significant amount of text, as you did above. Failing to do so is unethical and a form of dishonesty. Pretty amazing you consider the Firearm Industry Trade Association as a “more honest” or “less biased” source. But they say what you want to hear, so good for you I guess.
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I said all I wanted to about the quotes. I actually first ran across them as they were quoted on a different source. What I said was that in my opinion the Firearm Industry Trade Association information I quoted is more honest than the opinion of a person who believes a hunting rifle should only hold one round. I added that others would find the information biased. My interest was not in how biased or unbiased the source is, only that in my opinion the idea of a one round hunting rifle is really a terrible idea. The info I gave says why and I agree.

So if your point is that a one round hunting rifle is the bees knees, than make the case that what I quoted is false by comparison. The AR 15 is popular and effective as a relatively mild hunting round highly configurable to personal needs.

Personally I find the idea of hunting as something I could never do with the possible exception of some fantastical survival need I hope never to see. But I respect those who can do so who want to do it ethically. There are tools that best serve that end, the AR being one of them.
 
SMOGZINN

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
4,401
136
interchange said:
Do you think that the Mom being prosecuted here will act as any kind of deterrent for future cases?
Click to expand...
As much as laws deter any action, which admittedly is not much.
What hopefully it would do is help bring awareness to the real problem here; that adults do not properly secure their guns and that kids get ahold of them. You would think that would be obvious, but trust me when I tell you that most people don't get that far down the logic path when they hear this story. It needs to be front and center of a story like this not something we are basically left to figure out for ourselves.

In a just world the headlines would have read:
Mother of 6 Years Fails to Secure Handgun, Elementary School Teacher Shot!

Why the hell can't we make a useful clickbait for once?
 
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HomerJS

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,056
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imported_tajmahal said:

School officials were informed the kid had a gun, but their cursory search of his backpack didn't find it, so they let him carry on and shoot the teacher. Just another failure of officials not doing their jobs and failing to prevent the shooting.
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And the parents go blameless? Who is really responsible for this? In your mind the teachers are to blame for that 6 year old shooting them.

I thought you were one of those people that advocated for arming teachers? Wouldn't it have been better if the teacher put a bullet in the head of that 6 year old?

Armed officer at Florida school sheltered in place instead of confronting shooter

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/fla-school-officer-waited-outside-building-4-minutes-232627967--abc-news-topstories.html the video shows Peterson arrived at the west side of Building 12, where most of the killing happened. He then took up a position but "never went in." The video shows that...
forums.anandtech.com forums.anandtech.com
 
P

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,050
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136
interchange said:
No we should have laws and should enforce sensible penalties consistently when crimes are committed.

And also harsh punishments are not effective criminal deterrents.
Click to expand...


As I understand it Deuterte's "thing" was to use extra-judicial death-squads to kill anyone so much as accused of being involved in the drug trade. I don't think anyone suggested that the child's mother should be murdered by vigilantes. Merely that there should be legal consequences, via the legitimate legal system.

Personally, in general, I'm extremely ambivalent about punishments as deterrent. I change my mind from one news-story to the next. It's clearly a complicated topic.

I do think there needs to be a system of incapacitating criminals, though - that is, of keeping them away from their potential victims. Whether that be well-run prisons or just well-funded effective probation services and 'punishment in the community', I don't know. I do know I was very relieved when a thuggish neighbour (who had repeatedly threatened me and others in the neighbourhood with violence) got sent to prison (for putting someone in hospital) and didn't come back.
 
I

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,017
2,860
136
SMOGZINN said:
As much as laws deter any action, which admittedly is not much.
What hopefully it would do is help bring awareness to the real problem here; that adults do not properly secure their guns and that kids get ahold of them. You would think that would be obvious, but trust me when I tell you that most people don't get that far down the logic path when they hear this story. It needs to be front and center of a story like this not something we are basically left to figure out for ourselves.

In a just world the headlines would have read:
Mother of 6 Years Fails to Secure Handgun, Elementary School Teacher Shot!

Why the hell can't we make a useful clickbait for once?
Click to expand...

Were I a conscientious person with an unsecured gun who heard about that story, I'd think oh shit I better keep my gun out of my children's hands. Were I a non-conscientious person with an unsecured gun, I'd think "that would never happen to me".

pmv said:
As I understand it Deuterte's "thing" was to use extra-judicial death-squads to kill anyone so much as accused of being involved in the drug trade. I don't think anyone suggested that the child's mother should be murdered by vigilantes. Merely that there should be legal consequences, via the legitimate legal system.

Personally, in general, I'm extremely ambivalent about punishments as deterrent. I change my mind from one news-story to the next. It's clearly a complicated topic.

I do think there needs to be a system of incapacitating criminals, though - that is, of keeping them away from their potential victims. Whether that be well-run prisons or just well-funded effective probation services and 'punishment in the community', I don't know. I do know I was very relieved when a thuggish neighbour (who had repeatedly threatened me and others in the neighbourhood with violence) got sent to prison (for putting someone in hospital) and didn't come back.
Click to expand...

Well obviously I invoked an extreme example here to get the ball rolling on considering what the relationship between punishment and criminal deterrence are, whether or not that punishment be extrajudicial.

I agree that there is some purpose of incarcerating people to prevent them from being a harm to society, although this isn't a good justification in most cases. We can consider whether greater legal consequences increase criminality as they pose a large barrier to integrating successfully in society.
 
Drach

Drach

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2022
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I do hate to admit this but I keep a unloaded rifle next to my front door with the magazine upstairs with my kids in my house. One 13 and the other 22. It's been this way since both kids were born. Both have spent numerous hours at the range with a 10-22 and understand the respect and responsibility that needs to come with gun ownership.

I would have zero issues giving up my guns if the law required it. Some kids shouldn't be exposed to firearms. My kids have understood gun safety since ~5. There are good parents and kids and obviously bad ones out there.

Thank goodness the teacher survived and sparked debate about gun safety in general.
 
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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,052
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Drach said:
I would have zero issues giving up my guns if the law required it. Some kids shouldn't be exposed to firearms. My kids have understood gun safety since ~5. There are good parents and kids and obviously bad ones out there.
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Yeah dont get why other gun owners aren’t willing to give up their guns just to save one other victim from a school shooting. Blah blah blah 2A. Blah blah blah home invasion. Blah blah blah car jacking
 
SMOGZINN

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
4,401
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Drach said:
Both have spent numerous hours at the range with a 10-22 and understand the respect and responsibility that needs to come with gun ownership.
Click to expand...

Good sentiment, but it is worth remembering that NO kid, especially a 13-year-old, truly understands and respects the "responsibility that needs to come with gun ownership". Because they don't truly understand and respect danger or have a firm grasp on risk assessment. They are mostly emotional creatures, even the ones that do a really good job of hiding it. They make stupid decisions partially because they lack the simple experience to make better ones, partially because their brain has not fully formed the skills needed to project actions into the future, and partially because their brains get flooded by hormones and they lack the experience to manage their emotions in that state and get overwhelmed.

This is why we need strong laws on firearm storage. Parents forget that kids are emotional creatures and not rational ones. They think they know their kids and that it can't happen to them because they taught them better. But it is not about knowledge, it is about emotional control. What you really taught your kid in all that time at the range is how to use the gun effectively when they get angry or depressed enough to use it. You are teaching them that a gun is a solution. Don't be too surprised if they decide that they are wise enough to use that solution. I've never met a teen that didn't think they were wise enough to do something the rest of us know better to do.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,433
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eelw said:
Yeah dont get why other gun owners aren’t willing to give up their guns just to save one other victim from a school shooting. Blah blah blah 2A. Blah blah blah home invasion. Blah blah blah car jacking
Click to expand...
May I assume you do not own any guns? My experience is that people are just fine with a law that protects them so long as that protection is born on the backs of others. I think the problem is that exposure to news and the the knowledge of the media that eyes focus on disaster has created a society infected with deep mistrust and fear.

When I was a kid I would disappear in the morning on my bike and travel miles and miles away to explore fenced off military land, play in vacant buildings, and explore WW2 gun emplacements on coastal cliffs. Nobody worried or was nosy about where I'd been.

I w3ould bet that if you had to go through an airport search every time you left your house checking if you carry weapons, the skin off your nose might change your mind about paying the price of other people's fears.

How about you move to a country that bans guns? Ha! I'm guessing no way. Careful what you ask for when you give in to authoritarian answers to inculcated fears.
 
M

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,433
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eelw said:
Canadian
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Ah yes, a RCMP two feet from every door step. Who needs a gun. You can pass laws there you can't pass here. Didn't your ancestors line up in rows in the field so we could gun you down from behind trees. Silly bastards, we wanted independence.
 
B

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,149
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MrSquished

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Well we all know who that 6-year-old's going to vote for when they turn 18.

The party that thinks 6-year-olds should have access to guns because they don't want to make any rules to change how easy its become.
 
iRONic

iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
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purbeast0

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,859
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iRONic said:
Wrong.

The mag was empty but there was a fucking round chambered!!!
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You have it backwards.

The mag was full but there was no round chambered.

They talked about it multiple times on OP Live when it happened. There's also video of the magazine once the cops had it in hand, showing it was full.
 
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iRONic

iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
6,870
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purbeast0 said:
You have it backwards.

The mag was full but there was no round chambered.

They talked about it multiple times on OP Live when it happened. There's also video of the magazine once the cops had it in hand, showing it was full.
Click to expand...
The video with a rolltop desk in the backround?
 
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