Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

[DisEnchantment]

Speculate at will

 

[H433x0n]

Nothing changes besides fabric power.

That’s not nothing, you could instantly shave anywhere from 15-45W off of package power.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Imagine a Phoenix die with vcache that you could drop into an AM5 board. A monolithic AMD processor on N4P with a much stronger iGPU would dethrone the 7800X3D.

What would be the benefit of such a product?
If you need only that iGPU, then Vcache is pointless.
If you want to buy a dGPU to It, then iGPU is pointless.

 

[H433x0n]

What would be the benefit of such a product?
If you need only that iGPU, then Vcache is pointless.
If you want to buy a dGPU to It, then iGPU is pointless.

You’ve got a much higher inventory of Phoenix wafers and increased flexibility for mobile client overall.

You could run 2 lines of products:

Epyc & Threadripper
Mobile & Desktop

Lower pricing for 16C and create an 12C Threadripper and you have an outlet for those rejected dies. You can drop the AM5 cIOD die in favor of a 2nd Phoenix die and re-use the same cIOD for Epyc & Threadripper.

 

[adroc_thurston]

you could instantly shave anywhere from 15-45W off of package power.

IFOPs aren't anywhere near that expensive.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Death.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

The only difference between that and DT is power target.

What about DT having leakier, higher frequency dies and mobile having power optimized less leaky silicon? Mobile would need special low power transistors to achieve power efficiency while these same transistors wouldn't be much use in a DT CPU, unless they are the LP e-cores in the SoC tile (if that's ever coming to DT).

 

[adroc_thurston]

What about DT having leakier, higher frequency dies and mobile having power optimized less leaky silicon?

You still bin them the same.

Mobile would need special low power transistors to achieve power efficiency while these same transistors wouldn't be much use in a DT CPU

?
AMD uses standard PDK with dense cells everywhere.

they are the LP e-cores

What's that.
LITTLE is inherently low power.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

You’ve got a much higher inventory of Phoenix wafers and increased flexibility for mobile client overall.

You could run 2 lines of products:

Epyc & Threadripper
Mobile & Desktop

Lower pricing for 16C and create an 12C Threadripper and you have an outlet for those rejected dies. You can drop the AM5 cIOD die in favor of a 2nd Phoenix die and re-use the same cIOD for Epyc & Threadripper.

This doesn't explain why desktop Phoenix should use Vcache.
And what you wrote doesn't even make much sense to me.

8700G(Phoenix) is 178mm2 N4.
7700X(Raphael) is 71mm2 N5 + 122m2 N6.

1. You will have to buy more wafers at a more expensive process and make bigger chips on It.
2. You are limited to 8 cores.
3. a bigger IGP is eating die space even If It's not needed
4. AMD is planning to release Phoenix for desktop

 

[jpiniero]

You could reduce the desktop SKUs to just VCache models for DIY/gaming... and basically the laptop models with the basic IGP with higher TDPs for OEMs.

 

[igor_kavinski]

What's that.
LITTLE is inherently low power.

Something even more power sipping than Zen4c/5c that's only in the IOD and only used for browsing/media consumption, shutting the CCDs down to conserve power, like in Meteor Lake? AMD will eventually end up doing this since they like to copy Intel for the sake of telling consumers, "Hey! We offer this in our products too!".

 

[igor_kavinski]

You could reduce the desktop SKUs to just VCache models for DIY/gaming

Not really possible since V-cache would be wasted on OEM desktop office PCs but yes to only V-cache for DIY. DIY is mostly gamers anyway, especially on the AMD side.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

You could reduce the desktop SKUs to just VCache models for DIY/gaming... and basically the laptop models with the basic IGP with higher TDPs for OEMs.

Why should DIY/gaming be reduced to only SKUs with Vcache? Not everyone is willing to pay another $100 for that extra cache.
I just checked and 7800X3D cost only 28 euro more than 7700X, that’s pretty good If I ignore the fact AMD is asking 383 euro for an 8C CPU.

Which laptop models? You have Phoenix, Phoenix 2 and Dragon Range.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Something even more power sipping than Zen4c/5c that's only in the IOD and only used for browsing/media consumption, shutting the CCDs down to conserve power

Well yeah they're making an actual Cat core successor.

like in Meteor Lake

That's not a real LITTLE and it's bad.

 

[H433x0n]

This doesn't explain why desktop Phoenix should use Vcache.
And what you wrote doesn't even make much sense to me.

Doesn’t have to use vcache, it’d be a nice option. AMD is already using shared configurations for mobile and desktop so it can’t be a crazy idea.

8700G(Phoenix) is 178mm2 N4.
7700X(Raphael) is 71mm2 N5 + 122m2 N6.

1. You will have to buy more wafers at a more expensive process and make bigger chips on It.
2. You are limited to 8 cores.
3. a bigger IGP is eating die space even If It's not needed
4. AMD is planning to release Phoenix for desktop

The difference in costs between 8700G and 7700X would be marginal. I’d propose making 2x dies for client, an 8C & 16C configuration.

 

[adroc_thurston]

so it can’t be a crazy idea.

Yea it is.
TSV macro on a 16MB LLC part is no bueno.

I’d propose making 2x dies for client, an 8C & 16C configuration.

DT isn't anywhere relevant enough for that garbage to exist.

 

[Timmah!]

Along with fabric topology and d2d link choices.

And that will be better for me than having that server uncore? I mean, will it provide any performance improvement to want that?

 

[adroc_thurston]

And that will be better for me than having that server uncore?

Hopefully.

I mean, will it provide any performance improvement to want that?

It's about power and commonality with other client designs than performance.
DT is a toy market for AMD.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Well yeah they're making an actual Cat core successor.

What's it called? HellCat?

 

[StefanR5R]

There is no desktop Zen6, it's just client.
Server parts live on their own and there should be major differences between mainstream (SP8) and halo (SP7) platforms.

What will be the fate of the rejected server silicon once Zen 6 ships?

Death.

Hmm, there are already many EPYC SKUs which have got 1...7 of 8 cores disabled, and one or another SKU which has partly disabled L3$. There were also some late additions to the Milan line which featured reduced perf/W specs at lowered price point. Won't server SKUs like these soak up much if not all rejects of the kind which would, until now, still suffice as functioning Client bins?

 

[Hitman928]

Something even more power sipping than Zen4c/5c that's only in the IOD and only used for browsing/media consumption, shutting the CCDs down to conserve power, like in Meteor Lake?

I am extremely skeptical that MTL’s SOC cores will be used for anything interactive. I’m thinking they are there only for idle situations to handle things like receiving emails and such when everything else is idling.

 

[Ajay]

DT is a toy market for AMD.

So, for Zen6 there will still be DIY motherboards (socketed) for enthusiasts, but the best we'll get is a high freq 8P+8C cores? No V-Cache w/16MB L3$ will be a bit of a step back for gamers.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I am extremely skeptical that MTL’s SOC cores will be used for anything interactive. I’m thinking they are there only for idle situations to handle things like receiving emails and such when everything else is idling.

The media engine is inside the SoC tile so expect the compute tile to power down when someone is watching video full screen. We might see ridiculously good video playback runtimes for Meteor Lake laptops on battery power.

 

[Glo.]

DT is a toy market for AMD.

Its toy market for EVERYBODY now.

 

[Glo.]

Why should DIY/gaming be reduced to only SKUs with Vcache? Not everyone is willing to pay another $100 for that extra cache.
I just checked and 7800X3D cost only 28 euro more than 7700X, that’s pretty good If I ignore the fact AMD is asking 383 euro for an 8C CPU.

Which laptop models? You have Phoenix, Phoenix 2 and Dragon Range.

Because that is exactly how the markets will look like in future.

DIY will be highest price margin to counteract the fact its the lowest volume in terms of sales.

I have written many times, already about it.

DIY will die, peacfully hopefully, for mainstream solutions, while existing for years to come in highest of highest end brackets. For plebs - integrated solutions with CPU, and possibly RAM integrated on the mobo packages, that you will be able to buy. Mainstream will be just scaled up mobile platform, and fit into apropriate form factor.

 

[igor_kavinski]

DIY will die, peacfully hopefully, for mainstream solutions, while existing for years to come in highest of highest end brackets. For plebs - integrated solutions with CPU, and possibly RAM integrated on the mobo packages, that you will be able to buy. Mainstream will be just scaled up mobile platform, and fit into apropriate form factor.

NO NO NO

May you be very wrong!

 

[NostaSeronx]

Monkey paw wish is granted, HEDT also joins the scaled mobile platform. post-Zen4 Threadripper is OAM'd with LPDDR/HBM memory. At least, there will be boards with 8 OAM-like sockets. Have fun with 1024-cores at 4 GHz.