Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

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Fjodor2001

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Feb 6, 2010
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7950X3D at only $559 at MicroCenter now. Really good deal.

Is it really worth waiting for Zen5? Expectations seem to be ~20-25% better ST/MT perf at same TDP compared to Zen4. Priced at what level? $699 if perf/$ shall remain the same, and in that case no improvement in that regard. Also, you have to wait ~6 months until release.
 
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q52

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Jan 18, 2023
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7950X3D at only $559 at MicroCenter now. Really good deal.

Is it really worth waiting for Zen5? Expectations seem to be ~20-25% better ST/MT perf at same TDP compared to Zen4. Priced at what level? $699 if perf/$ shall remain the same, and in that case no improvement in that regard. Also, you have to wait ~6 months until release.
As some one who bought the 3950X only to upgrade to 5950X a year later, I'm not going for any early-cycle flagships anymore. Gonna wait until the final form of AM5 (9950X3D ??) before jumping in
 
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Fjodor2001

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Feb 6, 2010
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As some one who bought the 3950X only to upgrade to 5950X a year later, I'm not going for any early-cycle flagships anymore. Gonna wait until the final form of AM5 (9950X3D ??) before jumping in
So you’re skipping Zen4/5, and assume Zen6 (9950X3D?) will be the last on AM5? What if there’ll be a Zen7 on AM5 after that?

Also, just curious, why do you like to go for the last CPU generation on each socket generation?
 

q52

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Jan 18, 2023
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I'm just gonna wait until the final series of CPUs for the socket because there's no point in "upgrading" to another CPU on the same socket. You are just spending more money and buying more stuff unnecessarily. AM4 is not a slouch. Might as well just wait until the end of AM5 then you'll have the best possible offerings available. Also worth considering that swapping out a CPU is not a trivial upgrade, dealing with the heatsinks and thermal paste is always one of the most unpleasant parts of building PC, so further reason to avoid doing it more times than you have to.

You're gonna be dropping $2500-4000+ to build a PC to fully take advantage of Ryzen x950X so instead of paying $500-600 multiple times just do it once and make it the best possible CPU the first time you build

Also consider that once AM5 was announced, prices on 5950X started dropping rapidly. My 5950X cost less than my 3950X, even when the latter was "on sale" for ~$600. Seems safe to assume that a similar situation may unfold after the AM5 successor gets announced
 

linkgoron

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Mar 9, 2005
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I'm just gonna wait until the final series of CPUs for the socket because there's no point in "upgrading" to another CPU on the same socket. You are just spending more money and buying more stuff unnecessarily. AM4 is not a slouch. Might as well just wait until the end of AM5 then you'll have the best possible offerings available. Also worth considering that swapping out a CPU is not a trivial upgrade, dealing with the heatsinks and thermal paste is always one of the most unpleasant parts of building PC, so further reason to avoid doing it more times than you have to.

You're gonna be dropping $2500-4000+ to build a PC to fully take advantage of Ryzen x950X so instead of paying $500-600 multiple times just do it once and make it the best possible CPU the first time you build

Also consider that once AM5 was announced, prices on 5950X started dropping rapidly. My 5950X cost less than my 3950X, even when the latter was "on sale" for ~$600. Seems safe to assume that a similar situation may unfold after the AM5 successor gets announced
This post makes no sense. If you have an older PC or just need to upgrade now to the best option, you don't wait because in 3 or 4 years the same socket with have a better option. There's no reason to buy an older, worse, platform because the current platform will have a better option in the future.
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
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I'm just gonna wait until the final series of CPUs for the socket because there's no point in "upgrading" to another CPU on the same socket. You are just spending more money and buying more stuff unnecessarily.
It's all strictly unnecessary as long as your old system works. If you like to avoid unnecessary purchases, why bother holding out for the ultimate AM5 Zen? Hold out as long as you can.

But going from 3950X to 5950X is a particularly unnecessary example...
 
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DrMrLordX

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Apr 27, 2000
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But going from 3950X to 5950X is a particularly unnecessary example...
Eh, it's a drop-in upgrade, and there won't be a faster 16c for AM4. It's much simpler and more cost-effective than switching to an entirely new platform with new board + RAM + who knows what else. If they need a new dGPU as well, maybe a totally new build is warranted. If not, then may as well take the incremental upgrade for another 1-2 years and wait for Zen6 (to then grab a cheap Zen5 or even Zen4). It's not a terrible strategy.

Or they could just sit on the 3950X for awhile longer.
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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You're gonna be dropping $2500-4000+ to build a PC to fully take advantage of Ryzen x950X so instead of paying $500-600 multiple times just do it once and make it the best possible CPU the first time you build
Well, I don’t see why you have to upgrade the CPU multiple times on the same socket generation just because you can.

E.g. if you buy a new AM5 based system with 7950X3D, and then later 8950X3D is released, why do you have to upgrade to it? If you think you need the extra performance and think it’s worth the cost then you upgrade, but otherwise there is no need to do it.
 

carrotmania

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Oct 3, 2020
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I'm just gonna wait until the final series of CPUs for the socket because there's no point in "upgrading" to another CPU on the same socket. You are just spending more money and buying more stuff unnecessarily. AM4 is not a slouch. Might as well just wait until the end of AM5 then you'll have the best possible offerings available. Also worth considering that swapping out a CPU is not a trivial upgrade, dealing with the heatsinks and thermal paste is always one of the most unpleasant parts of building PC, so further reason to avoid doing it more times than you have to.

You're gonna be dropping $2500-4000+ to build a PC to fully take advantage of Ryzen x950X so instead of paying $500-600 multiple times just do it once and make it the best possible CPU the first time you build

Also consider that once AM5 was announced, prices on 5950X started dropping rapidly. My 5950X cost less than my 3950X, even when the latter was "on sale" for ~$600. Seems safe to assume that a similar situation may unfold after the AM5 successor gets announced
Show me on the doll where years of being screwed over by Intel hurt you...
 

Joe NYC

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Jun 26, 2021
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7950X3D at only $559 at MicroCenter now. Really good deal.

Is it really worth waiting for Zen5? Expectations seem to be ~20-25% better ST/MT perf at same TDP compared to Zen4. Priced at what level? $699 if perf/$ shall remain the same, and in that case no improvement in that regard. Also, you have to wait ~6 months until release.
As far as waiting, depends what you currently have, how much you are hurting with your current system.

If you are looking at 7950x3d, then you will probably be also looking for V-Cache version of Zen 5, which may lag by a few months, so instead of 6 months, it may be 9-12 months to get the V-Cache version of Zen 5.
 

Joe NYC

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Jun 26, 2021
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MLID video on Zen 6 - it talks mostly about something they call EPYC-E which is a successor to Sienna and Sorano. E likely stands for Edge, and AMD also calls Siena edge device, not cloud device.

Talks about 32-core CCDs (maybe the dense cores of everything will be only dense) that can be swapped for networking chiplets, AI chiplets or FPGA chiplets.

Uses multiple IO dies with PCI-E Gen 5 and 6, DDR5.

It seems that the link between multiple IO dies and IO die and CCDs are the Active Silicon Bridges we have seen in the cancelled Navi4c

 

Joe NYC

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Jun 26, 2021
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Trying to project from the "edge" variant of Venice to desktop Zen 6, my guess is that it will have:
- 16 core CCD, likely on N3E
- bigger CCD may give a chance to offer bigger L3 and bigger V-Cache
- From Adore leaks, it is likely that Zen 6 will be using the "elevator" enhance ring bus
- nothing said about the other Adore leak of 2 MB or 3 MB L2
- SerDes will likely be gone, but unclear if desktop will use something that looks like Active Silicon Bridge in Epyc. May be one of the RDL thingies...
- 16 core CCD is enough cores for client, I wonder if there will be 2 CCD 32 core variant
- Or if there will be client versions of the heterogeneous dies from server, such as the networking, AI or FPGA
- while not exactly desktop, the single IO die with 4 memory channels could be a perfect platform for return of HECD, without pricing being in stratosphere. Single IOD also has generous amount of PCIe Gen 5 and Gen 6 links. Maybe stars will finally re-align for revival of HEDT
- AM5 may live to Zen 6. Zen 6 staying with DDR5, and it may be possible to upgrade the PCIe links from AM5 pinout to use PCIe Gen 6. But would need a new mobo to get full functionality.
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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As far as waiting, depends what you currently have, how much you are hurting with your current system.

If you are looking at 7950x3d, then you will probably be also looking for V-Cache version of Zen 5, which may lag by a few months, so instead of 6 months, it may be 9-12 months to get the V-Cache version of Zen 5.
Yes, good point.

Also, w.r.t. Zen5, there is not really much official info about it which complicated matters further for those who are trying to decide between Zen4 now vs wait for Zen5.

The claim about 20-25% ST/MT perf increase & same TDP & perf/watt & core count is only speculation from what I understand. I wonder when we can expect to get some official announcement from AMD with technical details. Possibly at CES2024 at around the same time as Zen4 APUs are expected to be released?
 

Joe NYC

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Jun 26, 2021
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Yes, good point.

Also, w.r.t. Zen5, there is not really much official info about it which complicated matters further for those who are trying to decide between Zen4 now vs wait for Zen5.

The claim about 20-25% ST/MT perf increase & same TDP & perf/watt & core count is only speculation from what I understand. I wonder when we can expect to get some official announcement from AMD with technical details. Possibly at CES2024 at around the same time as Zen4 APUs are expected to be released?
AMD is quite stingy giving info on future products, pre-announcing products. Maybe even getting more stingy.

For comparison with Zen 4, first public demo of Zen 4, giving a hint of performance was in
May 2022 and then, the actual release was in August / September 2022. So CES 2024 would fit that timing for some Zen 5 info to be released, but with Zen 4 sales being very strong, AMD will avoid any potential Osborne effect from the announcement.

As far as the level of detail you can expect - probably quite limited. For comparison, here is the Zen 4 pre-announcement from Computex:


Lisa gave > 15% performance improvement, which actual Zen 4 release exceeded. That may be the extent of what to expect.

There will be an AI event next week (Dec 6), and there may be an update of the Zen 5 Turin server roadmap, for a small hint on Zen 5 info, and maybe placing Zen 6 Venice on the road map.
 
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TESKATLIPOKA

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May 1, 2020
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I am certain I would be happy enough even with 7840HS or 8700G for example, but why not be even happier. ;)

Zen5 is not that far away -> next year. If AMD doesn't say anything at CES 2024 about Zen5, which is 38 days away, then It's Computer 2024 185 days away.
I think It will provide uplift comparable to Zen3->Zen4 If not more.

For mobile I would most likely prefer Strix Point + next gen dGPU If they are released next year. Maybe RDNA4 monoliths will surprise us with decent performance.
 
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StefanR5R

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Dec 10, 2016
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Is it really worth waiting for Zen5? Expectations seem to be ~20-25% better ST/MT perf at same TDP compared to Zen4.
Re MT performance: In contrast, what I for one understood from this thread so far is that desktop Zen 5's MT (particularly: all-core) performance-per-Watt will only improve moderately over desktop Zen 4, but that there may be more absolute MT performance on offer by means of respectively increased power budget. Which would make sense to me, given that Zen 5 is supposedly a combination of considerably wider core architecture, an only slightly improved manufacturing node, and (on desktop) unchanged system-level tech. ST performance on the other hand would notably profit from the core architecture change alone, to a degree which should depend quite a bit on the nature of the workload. (Folks keep talking about "IPC" as if only one definite workload existed.)
 
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eek2121

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Aug 2, 2005
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It's all strictly unnecessary as long as your old system works. If you like to avoid unnecessary purchases, why bother holding out for the ultimate AM5 Zen? Hold out as long as you can.

But going from 3950X to 5950X is a particularly unnecessary example...
My upgrade path was:

1950X -> 3900X -> 5950X -> 7950X.

The 5950X system was by far the most problem free of them all. I do appreciate the extra speed on my 7950X system, however.

(1950X - huge BIOS issues. 3900X had some BIOS issues and RAM compatibility problems, 5950X was perfect paired with the X570S Aorus Master, 7950X same as 1950X and 3900X)

Hopefully Zen 5 will be stable and problem free.
 

Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
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Trying to project from the "edge" variant of Venice to desktop Zen 6, my guess is that it will have:
- 16 core CCD, likely on N3E
- bigger CCD may give a chance to offer bigger L3 and bigger V-Cache
- From Adore leaks, it is likely that Zen 6 will be using the "elevator" enhance ring bus
- nothing said about the other Adore leak of 2 MB or 3 MB L2
- SerDes will likely be gone, but unclear if desktop will use something that looks like Active Silicon Bridge in Epyc. May be one of the RDL thingies...
- 16 core CCD is enough cores for client, I wonder if there will be 2 CCD 32 core variant
- Or if there will be client versions of the heterogeneous dies from server, such as the networking, AI or FPGA
- while not exactly desktop, the single IO die with 4 memory channels could be a perfect platform for return of HECD, without pricing being in stratosphere. Single IOD also has generous amount of PCIe Gen 5 and Gen 6 links. Maybe stars will finally re-align for revival of HEDT
- AM5 may live to Zen 6. Zen 6 staying with DDR5, and it may be possible to upgrade the PCIe links from AM5 pinout to use PCIe Gen 6. But would need a new mobo to get full functionality.
Damn it, I think I know why there is no Zen7 in the roadmap. Cause 32-core Venice CCD made by N2 process will become Zen7 which will be unveiled in 2027. By that time, DDR6 is readily available, AMD only need to redesign new IOD with 128-bit DDR6 memory bus then voila we have new platform for AM6..
 
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adroc_thurston

Platinum Member
Jul 2, 2023
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Trying to project from the "edge" variant of Venice to desktop Zen 6, my guess is that it will have:
- 16 core CCD, likely on N3E
- bigger CCD may give a chance to offer bigger L3 and bigger V-Cache
- From Adore leaks, it is likely that Zen 6 will be using the "elevator" enhance ring bus
- nothing said about the other Adore leak of 2 MB or 3 MB L2
- SerDes will likely be gone, but unclear if desktop will use something that looks like Active Silicon Bridge in Epyc. May be one of the RDL thingies...
- 16 core CCD is enough cores for client, I wonder if there will be 2 CCD 32 core variant
- Or if there will be client versions of the heterogeneous dies from server, such as the networking, AI or FPGA
- while not exactly desktop, the single IO die with 4 memory channels could be a perfect platform for return of HECD, without pricing being in stratosphere. Single IOD also has generous amount of PCIe Gen 5 and Gen 6 links. Maybe stars will finally re-align for revival of HEDT
- AM5 may live to Zen 6. Zen 6 staying with DDR5, and it may be possible to upgrade the PCIe links from AM5 pinout to use PCIe Gen 6. But would need a new mobo to get full functionality.
There is no desktop Zen6, it's just client.
Server parts live on their own and there should be major differences between mainstream (SP8) and halo (SP7) platforms.
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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Re MT performance: In contrast, what I for one understood from this thread so far is that desktop Zen 5's MT (particularly: all-core) performance-per-Watt will only improve moderately over desktop Zen 4, but that there may be more absolute MT performance on offer by means of respectively increased power budget. Which would make sense to me, given that Zen 5 is supposedly a combination of considerably wider core architecture, an only slightly improved manufacturing node, and (on desktop) unchanged system-level tech. ST performance on the other hand would notably profit from the core architecture change alone, to a degree which should depend quite a bit on the nature of the workload. (Folks keep talking about "IPC" as if only one definite workload existed.)
I’ve not followed all posts in this thread in detail, but cannot recall that such a definitive conclusion has been made. Regardless, isn’t all the discussion in this thread just speculation anyway? I’ve not seen any official info from AMD mentioning what you described.
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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My upgrade path was:

1950X -> 3900X -> 5950X -> 7950X.

The 5950X system was by far the most problem free of them all. I do appreciate the extra speed on my 7950X system, however.

(1950X - huge BIOS issues. 3900X had some BIOS issues and RAM compatibility problems, 5950X was perfect paired with the X570S Aorus Master, 7950X same as 1950X and 3900X)

Hopefully Zen 5 will be stable and problem free.
Were the issues you mentioned only at CPU launch and close in time after that so they have been fixed in later BIOS updates and all the systems are now problem free, or are you still having issues with the problematic systems?
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Were the issues you mentioned only at CPU launch and close in time after that so they have been fixed in later BIOS updates and all the systems are now problem free, or are you still having issues with the problematic systems?
I went the same path. I had like 6 1950x systems, but they were all linux, and I had no issues. The 5950x and 7950x were windows, and no issues with either. The 3900x was also linux and trouble free.
 

reb0rn

Senior member
Dec 31, 2009
221
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linux and no issue with new HW, what is use case :D
I have dozen issue but I am not ready to blame it on AMD, more issue with linux, way more with new HW