Question Zen 4 builders thread

[Markfw]

I know its early, but as someone pointed out, I better get my ram now before the scalpers are all over it.

To go with a 7950x, what do you think of this ram:

https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-288-pin-ddr5-sdram/p/N82E16820374369?Item=N82E16820374369

(edited for my best recommendation, 12/5/2023)

 

[AdamK47]

I don't think the X670/B650 boot up times are solved. They're tolerable now but were unacceptable at launch.
Even with memory context restore it's 15 seconds which is slower than some platforms from a decade ago.
Without restore it's a minute or more.

They have improved it a lot but they should keep focusing on it if any more improvements can be made. Feel free to disagree, other people have different priorities.

Why does a modern system need to boot faster than a system from a decade ago? What is it indicative of to you?

Have you seen how long it takes mission critical servers to boot? They have many POST operations that could take minutes before you get into the OS. This despite the fact that when these go down, they need to be brought back up to begin running mission critical services. They still need to go through all of the system checks on startup to ensure the hardware is not bad and won't fail. To system admins, this operation is very critical and worth the time before being able to run services.

 

[gdansk]

Why does a modern system need to boot faster than a system from a decade ago? What is it indicative of to you?

Have you seen how long it takes mission critical servers to boot? They have many POST operations that could take minutes before you get into the OS. This despite the fact that when these go down, they need to be brought back up to begin running mission critical services. They still need to go through all of the system checks on startup to ensure the hardware is not bad and won't fail. To system admins, this operation is very critical and worth the time before being able to run services.

The retraining is one problem. It's incorrectly indicates a non-working system. I've had people - for whom I put together PCs - message me asking why their PC won't turn on. I have to ask them to wait a few minutes and sure enough it works. But the power went out, or someone unplugged it, and it decided to spend a minute or two training which is not how the PC normally works. And they don't know enough to expect it even though I warned them about the first boot.

As for the boot time it is simply a bad experience for people who turn off their PCs. These aren't mission critical servers and they don't have 6 peripherals, hundreds of gigabytes of ECC or anything else complicated. So why wait around?

 

[AdamK47]

The retraining is one problem. It's incorrectly indicates a non-working system. I've had people - for whom I put together PCs - message me asking why their PC won't turn on. I have to ask them to wait a few minutes and sure enough it works. But the power went out, or someone unplugged it, and it decided to spend a minute or two training which is not how the PC normally works. And they don't know enough to expect it even though I warned them about the first boot.

As for the boot time it is simply a bad experience for people who turn off their PCs. These aren't mission critical servers and they don't have 6 peripherals, hundreds of gigabytes of ECC or anything else complicated. So why wait around?

If it took the same time, but there was a monitor signal with a screen showing the memory training in progress, would that satisfy you?

 

[gdansk]

If it took the same time, but there was a monitor signal with a screen showing the memory training in progress, would that satisfy you?

It would be better.

 

[Fjodor2001]

I don't think the X670/B650 boot up times are solved. They're tolerable now but were unacceptable at launch.

So do you mean there are more problems left in addition to the memory training? Are those problems due to the BIOS so they affect all AMD X670/B650 MBs, or something MB specific?

The retraining is one problem. It's incorrectly indicates a non-working system.

But isn’t the memory training needed on all PCs that use DDR5, so it’s considered normal behavior? Or do you mean it only occurs on AMD/Zen4 based systems, and not on e.g. Intel based systems that use DDR5?

 

[igor_kavinski]

Or do you mean it only occurs on AMD/Zen4 based systems, and not on e.g. Intel based systems that use DDR5?

Intel is no better. On my Z790, it takes about 20 to 25 seconds to POST. And that's with DDR5-4600 speed coz I'm using an EXPO kit that doesn't have JEDEC or XMP profiles. I don't think XMP kits would POST in 5 seconds or less.

 

[gdansk]

So do you mean there are more problems left in addition to the memory training? Are those problems due to the BIOS so they affect all AMD X670/B650 MBs, or something MB specific?

I'm not aware of any present problems other than the boards I've used require retraining if power is lost.

But isn’t the memory training needed on all PCs that use DDR5, so it’s considered normal behavior? Or do you mean it only occurs on AMD/Zen4 based systems, and not on e.g. Intel based systems that use DDR5?

No idea, all the Alder/Raptor Lake builds I have done are DDR4.

 

[Fjodor2001]

I'm not aware of any present problems other than the boards I've used require retraining if power is lost.


No idea, all the Alder/Raptor Lake builds I have done are DDR4.

So there is no problem after all? Then why did you make all that noise?

 

[gdansk]

So there is no problem after all? Then why did you make all that noise?

Because it is worse than other platforms I've used. People here argue it is inherent to DDR5 and I'm not qualified to dispute that. But in measurable experience as an end user & someone who deals with end users it is a regression compared to AM4 and H610/B660 DDR4. Nor am I aware of potential problems other than it is worse experience and slower.

If that's not a problem for you that's fine. But it is a problem for some people.

 

[Dave3000]

No, B650 is just as reliable as X670. I’d recommend Asrock for any AM5 motherboard but MSI is fine as well.

The usb dropouts I’ve noticed has mainly been related to cIOD binning. If it does occur (which is pretty unlikely) it can usually be fixed by gradually raising vSOC until the problem subsides.

This was happening when I had a Ryzen 7 5800X CPU on this motherboard as well, so I doubt it's a defective CPU, and therefore I doubt that increasing the vSOC will fix it. It happens on every USB-A port of my motherboard but not the USB-C (via a USB-C to USB-A cable adapter) and it happens on the USB ports on the front of my case. Could it be a power delivery issue to the USB-A ports of my motherboard as if I use an AC powered USB hub then my iPhone does not have issues with connections through USB, only when connected directly to my motherboards USB-A ports. I also have an issue with my PNY 32GB USB 2.0 flash drive in that it takes about 20 seconds for it to detect as a drive letter after the chime sound that happens as soon as I connect it to any USB-A port of my motherboard including the USB-A ports in the front of my case. Connecting that flash drive to the the USB-C port via the USB-C to USB-A adapter is a workaround for that one, then it will detect as a drive letter immediately after connecting it that USB-C port. This flash drive has no delay detection issues on my Intel NUC and my mom's PC and the dad's "guest" PC in my home and my iPhone has no USB connection issues on those PCs either. Even if I did purchases USB 3.0 PCI-E card, I already know which device that I own that my motherboard has USB connectivity issues with, and already found workaround for those devices, such as using the Wi-Fi photo app for my iPhone to transfer photos to my PC and avoiding using that USB flash drive on this PC. Also I have a loose connection in the USB 3.1 port of my motherboard as it has no clicky grab feel when I connect USB devices to it, resulting in a occasional disconnection on that port, until I put pressure on the cable to that USB port, then the USB device will redetect itself. Basically my motherboard in general is very fussy with certain USB devices on all USB-A ports and has a loose connection USB 3.1 port.

PS: I recently bought a $25 4-port USB 3.0 powered hub and connected it to the USB-C port of my system via a USB-C to USB-A adapter as a workaround as I know that the USB-C port in my system is the only USB port in my system that does not have issues with the devices I mentioned.

 

[Hotrod2go]

I just built a new X670E system my Asrock Steel Legend board & when installing the OS with everything in the bios (v1.28 - agesa 1.0.0.7b)) at stock auto settings, the first boot up took less than a minute & every subsequent boot up is just like the old days when systems would boot in a time period that most folks would consider normal. That is less than 15 secs to the login screen.
Another interesting point I'd like to make is this agesa version is causing my 7600X to boost up to 5.45GHz on this board, just like it did on the MSI B650 Edge WiFi board as well when it had a fresh install of the OS - everything in that bios was on stock auto too when installing the OS. That's 150MHz above AMD spec for this processor to be running at. I'm not complaining, any free performance boost is most welcome! Just putting that out there for the record.

 

[Hotrod2go]

Just wanted to give a compliment to Asrock for supplying a hard copy of the motherboard manual with my new X670E Steel Legend board. Out of 3 vendors I've purchased AM5 boards from, Asrock were the only one to do that. Not everyone appreciates digital downloads of what is often vital information when building & configuring a system. Well done Asrock!

 

[eek2121]

I don't think the X670/B650 boot up times are solved. They're tolerable now but were unacceptable at launch.
Even with memory context restore it's 15 seconds which is slower than some platforms from a decade ago.
Without restore it's a minute or more.

They have improved it a lot but they should keep focusing on it if any more improvements can be made. Feel free to disagree, other people have different priorities.

My board doesn’t take 15 seconds to boot with MCR on. From power button to Windows bootloader it is 3-5 seconds. Windows usually takes another 3-5 seconds.

With MCR off it takes forever, but my PC is always on and I reboot like once every week or three, depending on Windows or driver updates.

 

[Fjodor2001]

My board doesn’t take 15 seconds to boot with MCR on. From power button to Windows bootloader it is 3-5 seconds. Windows usually takes another 3-5 seconds.

With MCR off it takes forever, but my PC is always on and I reboot like once every week or three, depending on Windows or driver updates.

Just curious, what MB + BIOS & AGESA version + CPU + RAM combo are you using?

 

[biostud]

Apparently MSI has already implemented AGESA 1.0.0.7c while ASRock has just released a beta bios, which should further stabilize/support higher speed memory.

NEW AMD AGESA PI 1.0.0.7c BIOS Update Supports Higher Frequency Memory Modules & Stability Bug Fixes

NEW AMD AGESA PI 1.0.0.7c BIOS Update Supports Higher Frequency Memory Modules & Stability Bug Fixes

www.msi.com

Reddit - Dive into anything

reddit.com

 

[Hotrod2go]

You run a win7 VM with 5GB of memory?!

Windows uses a shade above 8GB just booting up for me!

Apparently MSI has already implemented AGESA 1.0.0.7c while ASRock has just released a beta bios, which should further stabilize/support higher speed memory.

NEW AMD AGESA PI 1.0.0.7c BIOS Update Supports Higher Frequency Memory Modules & Stability Bug Fixes

NEW AMD AGESA PI 1.0.0.7c BIOS Update Supports Higher Frequency Memory Modules & Stability Bug Fixes

www.msi.com

Reddit - Dive into anything

reddit.com

I just installed that 1.0.0.7c agesa bios from Asrock (1.29.AS01 bios) on my X670E Steel Legend & enabled PBO with XMP, but upon reboot - only the XMP is on. Did a quick test with CPUZ bench & the PBO is not functioning...
Perhaps go back to the 1.0.0.7b (1.28) for the time being? I'll do some more investigating though...

 

[biostud]

I just installed that 1.0.0.7c agesa bios from Asrock (1.29.AS01 bios) on my X670E Steel Legend & enabled PBO with XMP, but upon reboot - only the XMP is on. Did a quick test with CPUZ bench & the PBO is not functioning...
Perhaps go back to the 1.0.0.7b (1.28) for the time being? I'll do some more investigating though...

I currently only do beta bios if it fixes a significant bug, otherwise I just wait for the official release.

 

[mv2devnull]

7800X3D, Asrock X670E Steel Legend, bios v1.28, G.Skill 6000 CL32 EXPO: 20 seconds from power button to Windows ready for login.
(I think I have set the "show Del/F11" to 3 seconds.)

 

[biostud]

7800X3D, Asrock X670E Steel Legend, bios v1.28, G.Skill 6000 CL32 EXPO: 20 seconds from power button to Windows ready for login.
(I think I have set the "show Del/F11" to 3 seconds.)

Very much the same for me, which is not surprising as we have nearly identical setups.

 

[Dave3000]

I plan on upgrading to a Ryzen 7 7800X3D, does it make sense in my situation just to get a good quality board on the B650 chipset instead of spending more on a motherboard with the X670E chipset? I have an RTX 4090 and a 2TB Samsung 980 Pro NVMe and I think I'll be skipping the next generation or two of nVidia and AMD graphics cards, so I don't see myself taking advantage of PCI-E 5.0 for at least two more years and by that time I might even do a complete rebuild. I have a feeling that my RTX 4090 won't be a bottleneck until there is something much faster than a Ryzen 7 7800X3D for gaming.

 

[Joe NYC]

I plan on upgrading to a Ryzen 7 7800X3D, does it make sense in my situation just to get a good quality board on the B650 chipset instead of spending more on a motherboard with the X670E chipset? I have an RTX 4090 and a 2TB Samsung 980 Pro NVMe and I think I'll be skipping the next generation or two of nVidia and AMD graphics cards, so I don't see myself taking advantage of PCI-E 5.0 for at least two more years and by that time I might even do a complete rebuild. I have a feeling that my RTX 4090 won't be a bottleneck until there is something much faster than a Ryzen 7 7800X3D for gaming.

I think PCIe Gen 5 for M.2 drive is something you should definitely get. There are non "E" B650 boards out there that have Gen 4 for GPU but have Gen 5 for M.2. The price difference is going to be minimal.

Even if your current drive is 4.0, it is very likely you will want to replace / upgrade it before you upgrade your mobo / CPU. With games like Starfield using up 150 GB of disk space, your 2 TB will not last forever...

 

[igor_kavinski]

I plan on upgrading to a Ryzen 7 7800X3D, does it make sense just to get a good quality board on the B650 chipset instead of spending more on a motherboard with the X670E chipset?

A Gigabyte X670E mobo might help you do DDR5-6400 with tight timings and that would come in handy for games if suppose, you are thrilled by Zen 5 non-3D's performance and can't wait 6 months or more for Zen5X3D. If adroc_thurston's predictions for Zen 5 come true, it will be a hungry beast that will crave maximum bandwidth and X670E mobos should get priority BIOS updates for better support of high speed RAM. All speculation on my part, though.

 

[Joe NYC]

A Gigabyte X670E mobo might help you do DDR5-6400 with tight timings and that would come in handy for games if suppose, you are thrilled by Zen 5 non-3D's performance and can't wait 6 months or more for Zen5X3D. If adroc_thurston's predictions for Zen 5 come true, it will be a hungry beast that will crave maximum bandwidth and X670E mobos should get priority BIOS updates for better support of high speed RAM. All speculation on my part, though.

I am actually now deciding which mobo to get. Also for 7800x3d, but with an eye to upgrade to Zen 5 x3d when it comes out.

I was just looking at an Asrock X670E Steel Legend, that is relatively competitively priced x670E. Maybe pair it with Radeon 7800 XP also Steel Legend, for the visual effect, and maybe a case with plenty of glass...

My first choice is still PowerColor Hellhound, but it is sold out everywhere.

 

[igor_kavinski]

My first choice is still PowerColor Hellhound, but it is sold out everywhere.

Sapphire Nitro+ isn't a bad alternative but yes, the Hellhound is dang attractive for its lowest temps.

 

[Markfw]

Sapphire Nitro+ isn't a bad alternative but yes, the Hellhound is dang attractive for its lowest temps.

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