Zen 2 APUs/"Renoir" discussion thread

[Asterox]

Hm, that is not much larger compared to Mobile Ryzen 7 4800H Renoir APU =156 mm2.

8/16 Zen 2 CPU/Ryzen 7 4800H APU+ Vega 8CU

8/16 Zen 2 CPU/X Box S APU+ RDNA2 20CU

https://twitter.com/x/status/1303745295382126594

 

[NostaSeronx]

It physically has 24 CUs. 3x8, btw.

//Sparkman = Anaconda = Arden
Flute - Gonzalo = Oberon = Ariel = NV10 -> NV12 -> NV21 (progression) //
Van Gogh = Lockhart = Mero
Renoir = Acton = Lucienne

Xbox Series ?(Handheld/Mobile) => 4.5W 8c/7cu Acton part

 

[Gideon]

Hm, that is not much larger compared to Mobile Ryzen 7 4800H Renoir APU =156 mm2.

8/16 Zen 2 CPU/Ryzen 7 4800H APU+ Vega 8CU

8/16 Zen 2 CPU/X Box S APU+ RDNA2 20CU

https://twitter.com/x/status/1303745295382126594

This is pretty impressive, considering RDNA2 CUs should be a bit larger than VEGA. This chip has quite a few custom blocks an APU wouldn't need (e.g. SSD memory decompression etc). Also the 128 bit memory GDDR6 memory controller is also probably a bit bigger than LPDDR4x/LPDDR5 controller would be. All in all a < 190 mm2 8 core APU should be doable.

Overall I really wish AMD would release something like that in the notebook space as well (if possible then coupled with 6-channel LPDDR4x). This shoud kill every other iGPU out there, even when it's bandwidth starved and clocked relatively low.

 

[moinmoin]

This is pretty impressive, considering RDNA2 CUs should be a bit larger than VEGA. This chip has quite a few custom blocks an APU wouldn't need (e.g. SSD memory decompression etc). Also the 128 bit memory GDDR6 memory controller is also probably a bit bigger than LPDDR4x/LPDDR5 controller would be. All in all a < 190 mm2 8 core APU should be doable.

Overall I really wish AMD would release something like that in the notebook space as well (if possible then coupled with 6-channel LPDDR4x). This shoud kill every other iGPU out there, even when it's bandwidth starved and clocked relatively low.

It certainly gives the impression that AMD leaves itself plenty room to grow.

 

[LightningZ71]

Its a shame at how trivially easy it would be to do something like that in a laptop. It wouldn't even have to require expensive GDDR6X. Just implementing 256bits worth of regular old DDR5 controller (equivalent to four full channels, or 8 sub-channels, or 4 SODIMMS worth), then soldering 16 GB of it to the board on one side of the package (128 bits of it) and having the other side wired to a pair of SODIMM slots, would allow for a JDEC spec maximum of over 200GBps of memory bandwidth for the package. Just for reference, the Radeon 5500M has 22 CU and 224 GBps of memory throughput with a boost frequency of 1645 Mhz. Just boosting the 20 CUs of this chip to 1800Mhz would make up for the reduction in CUs by enough that performance should be a wash.

While there would certainly be an R&D cost to defining a new solder pad standard for such a chip, in volume, the cost difference between this and current boards that already have some of the RAM soldered on the board and additional SODIMM slots would be minimal. Lower cost units could solder all four ddr5 channels to the board, and lower performance models could use fewer channels or continue existing designs.

 

[Shivansps]

And the entire Xbox S cost LESS than the 4750G alone, if that is not proof of AMD overpricing Renoir i dont know what to say.

But it is good to know what they can do with RDNA2... It seems that, 1050TI perf is likely with DDR4 and RDNA2, and RX570+ with DDR5.

 

[moinmoin]

lower performance models could use fewer channels

I feel AMD planned ahead a lot of this years in advance and still considers itself to be at the "convincing OEMs" stage. Let's be frank, a quad channel mobile only chip would likely crash and burn in the current situation where Renoir still often gets the single channel treatment because why not...

 

[Thibsie]

And the entire Xbox S cost LESS than the 4750G alone, if that is not proof of AMD overpricing Renoir i dont know what to say.

It proved absolutely nothing.

 

[coercitiv]

And the entire Xbox S cost LESS than the 4750G alone, if that is not proof of AMD overpricing Renoir i dont know what to say.

The Xbox S is effectively a hardware rental service: $299 upfront, then Game Pass fees until one of the parties terminates the service.

If you think that's a better deal than effectively owning the 4750G, go ahead and rent the hardware instead.

 

[Shivansps]

The Xbox S is effectively a hardware rental service: $299 upfront, then Game Pass fees until one of the parties terminates the service.

If you think that's a better deal than effectively owning the 4750G, go ahead and rent the hardware instead.

So you are saying that you need to return the console? You dont need the game pass (also avalible in the X) to use the console, you only need to buy the games in the MS store. Whiout the game pass you arent going to be able to access to the games that the game pass gives you and the online, you can still buy and play games whiout the sub, thats not renting a console.

To be more clear: You can get teh Xbox S as a service, paying a subcription per month that gives you the console and the game pass that gives you access to the games that are part of that program.
OR you can pay $300 and buy games in the MS store, no sub needed. Only pay the game pass if you want.

Let me very clear about this, predatory pricing is illegal, consoles are sold at cost or very near to it. No $100-$300 below.

 

[coercitiv]

So you are saying that you need to return the console?

No, you can keep the console as a nice memorabilia. Alternatively you can keep playing whatever games you bough at full price, which likely have already compensated for low $299 price tag.

 

[Shivansps]

No, you can keep the console as a nice memorabilia. Alternatively you can keep playing whatever games you bough at full price, which likely have already compensated for low $299 price tag.

So you are saying that what Microsoft is doing is illegal?

You are implying that because it does not have a physical BD drive it is a rent service, what is just wrong. It works just like any other console, tell me were it says you need a active game pass subcription in order to go to the store and buy a game.

 

[coercitiv]

To be more clear: You can get teh Xbox S as a service, paying a subcription per month that gives you the console and the game pass that gives you access to the games that are part of that program.
OR you can pay $300 and buy games in the MS store, no sub needed. Only pay the game pass if you want.

And how many games are you going to play on the Xbox S with a $0 additional investment over the $299? Are you really going to fake ignorance on the economics of the console ecosystems in order to justify your theory that Renoir APUs are severely overpriced?!

30% of each game purchase you buy on the Xbox goes to Microsoft. Pay 10% of each software purchase to AMD and they'll give you the 4750G for $99.

Let me very clear about this, predatory pricing is illegal, consoles are sold at cost or very near to it. No $100-$300 below.

Obvious, captain.

 

[Shivansps]

And how many games are you going to play on the Xbox S with a $0 additional investment over the $299? Are you really going to fake ignorance on the economics of the console ecosystems in order to justify your theory that Renoir APUs are severely overpriced?!

30% of each game purchase you buy on the Xbox goes to Microsoft. Pay 10% of each software purchase to AMD and they'll give you the 4750G for $99.

We all know how console economics works, but you said it was a rent system, rent system is selling the console below cost but attached to a subcription you are forced to pay for X time.

In fact MS is doing that, as they are actually giving the Xbox S for free but with a 24 month subcription, that is a rent system, as you said.

But they are also giving the option to buy it for $300, and you can only get games in the MS store, no subscription needed, it is optional. That is selling the console at cost or very close to it in order not to be considered predatory pricing and get money from software. Text book example of console economics, not a rent system.

So once again, lets asume the Xbox S cost is $350 and they are selling below cost. Thats $350 for a 190mm 7nm APU way better than Renoir, a PCB, 10GB of GDDR6 memory, a 512GB NVME drive, case+psu, and a joystick...

HOW on earth a $309 156mm Renoir is fair compared to that? AMD is not selling the APU at loss, just low margins, they are getting very large margins out of desktop APUs at the same time they are increasing the price for the entry level sku, and im really not happy about it.

 

[moinmoin]

That is selling the console at cost or very close to it in order not to be considered predatory pricing and get money from software.

Tell that to all the printer manufacturers.

Also it's only predatory pricing if it's used to undercut smaller competition and in that way prevent them from getting a foothold in the market. With the existing players in the game console market that's not really the danger, Microsoft is actually the smallest of the three big players there.

 

[KompuKare]

We know know that even if a 7nm wafer costs $10k, the die costs is around $34 assuming 90% yield.
But what Sony's and Microsoft's model doesn't take into account is R&D.
So while an Series S might have a BoM of just under $300 (and Microsoft cannot be accused of dumping), that would leave no money for R&D, design, distribution, advertising etc.
We don't know the details of the semi-custom deals, but I would imagine all the design, tape out and research money has been charged up front.
AMD's margin for the console business might still be too low to fully cover all the R&D as the current gen has to pay for the research of the next gen.
And the last generation of consoles certainly didn't do that.
At the start AMD had GCN 1.0 and that was quite competitive in terms of perf/watt and perf/area with Kepler (with GK110 vs Hawaii AMD had both the performance and perf/area advantage), by the end AMD had fallen way behind in those metrics.
I think AMD underestimated Renoir laptop success, but I also think that if yields are as good as we now believe (near 90%) that selling good 8C dies as 4C or 6C doesn't make sense. Too late to tapeout a 4C design now though.

 

[coercitiv]

We all know how console economics works, but you said it was a rent system

I said it is effectively a rent service, as in the equivalent of one. You're the one who keeps pedaling the rent system ad litteram, not to mention you keep bringing in the predatory pricing scheme which nobody asked you to.

Your argument is AMD is asking for unreasonable margins on Renoir APUs, and you bring up Microsoft's asking price for the Xbox S as proof. My argument is that Microsoft is actually asking higher margins than AMD is, since they charge you part of the cost upfront and then keep taxing you with every purchase you make on the store, whether that is a subscription, game purchase, or both.

 

[teejee]

And the entire Xbox S cost LESS than the 4750G alone, if that is not proof of AMD overpricing Renoir i dont know what to say.

But it is good to know what they can do with RDNA2... It seems that, 1050TI perf is likely with DDR4 and RDNA2, and RX570+ with DDR5.

It is pretty clear that there is a lack of Renoir dies since many laptops with Renoir is out of stock.
That is a strong indication that the price for Renoir SKU's has been too low in general.

 

[DrMrLordX]

@Shivansps

Please stop being obtuse. @coercitiv is pointing out that Sony and MS sell hardware as a loss-leader. You pay less for the box than what it cost them to build it. MS/Sony recoup their investment in licensing fees for games that you buy on a tightly-controlled store.

 

[Shivansps]

@Shivansps

Please stop being obtuse. @coercitiv is pointing out that Sony and MS sell hardware as a loss-leader. You pay less for the box than what it cost them to build it. MS/Sony recoup their investment in licensing fees for games that you buy on a tightly-controlled store.

I know what he meant, it just was a weird way to say it, as" rent service" to me it meant something else on top of that.

The problem here is when i place both prices into context (the X and the S), the X it is just $200 more whiout that "online store limitation" and that mostly comes from the BOM alone when you starting checking the diferences, so it becomes very hard to sustain that point with the X at $500, we all know how MS and Sony make the money here, they are selling at loss and make money selling games and services, there is no need to explain that... but we dont know by how much they are selling at loss, for example if it is $100 more expensive it would be a lot of money and it would take a while to make up for it. There are people that thinks the S real cost could be $500, $600, or even $700, thats way too much to be true.

 

[DrMrLordX]

but we dont know by how much.

Which means the cost of an Xbox or Playstation in no way indicates that Renoir is overpriced.

 

[Shivansps]

Which means the cost of an Xbox or Playstation in no way indicates that Renoir is overpriced.

And how do you know that? There is an entire BOM there, even if the console is sold at 25% loss it is not a lot of a diference.

And to make it clear, the problem is not MS, Sony or the good deal they are getting, it was always like that, but this is the first time that PC hardware is so badly positioned at price/perf compared to consoles, meaning there is a problem with hardware we are getting now, and this is not only AMD fault.

 

[DrMrLordX]

And how do you know that?

Because I just told you that the retail price of Xbox and PS hardware is not related to BoM, period. You don't know the net loss percentage.

 

[CluelessOne]

Microsoft and Sony paid AMD in full for the semi custom design fee. AMD also got some small margin for producing the chip. About 25% if I remember correctly. A healthy chip manufacturer needs about 38% margin to be able to grow.
Your indignation about Renoir retail price is misplaced. Small retailer which sells 1 or 3 pieces per month typically set their margin as 10 to 30 times of the wholesale price. If anything you should be outraged to the online retailer. After all as Epic has argued to the world that Apple 30% margin is too much. So Online retailer should sell the Ryzen R9 series as much as $100. After all retailer can live with a margin of 5% on top of the wholesale price, right?

<sarcasm if it's not obvious>

 

[Shivansps]

Microsoft and Sony paid AMD in full for the semi custom design fee. AMD also got some small margin for producing the chip. About 25% if I remember correctly. A healthy chip manufacturer needs about 38% margin to be able to grow.
Your indignation about Renoir retail price is misplaced. Small retailer which sells 1 or 3 pieces per month typically set their margin as 10 to 30 times of the wholesale price. If anything you should be outraged to the online retailer. After all as Epic has argued to the world that Apple 30% margin is too much. So Online retailer should sell the Ryzen R9 series as much as $100. After all retailer can live with a margin of 5% on top of the wholesale price, right?

<sarcasm if it's not obvious>

I mentioned Renoir here because this is the Renoir thread, but my point is hardly about Renoir.

In the way i see it, this is very simple, this time around, consoles are coming with a CPU/GPU perf that is well over the PC mainstream average and in fact is in the midle of the high end... This never happened before.

And this is true, there is no way to argue against that. So what happened? is console hardware being sold below cost? yes, but thats nothing new, it always happened. So how we explain that? As consoles are doing the same they always did, it can only means our hardware(all hardware) is too expensive for the performance it gives.

So we may argue all day about console economics, but thats really irrelevant, Sony and Microsoft are not at fault, they paid, as always, for a product and a product they got, as always. As i see it, in the last few years AMD, Nvidia and Intel were too busy increasing prices and adding skus at the top. And the new consoles seems to confirm that.