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Zen 2 APUs/"Renoir" discussion thread

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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,371
5,282
136
And this is true, there is no way to argue against that. So what happened? is console hardware being sold below cost? yes, but thats nothing new, it always happened. So how we explain that? As consoles are doing the same they always did, it can only means our hardware(all hardware) is too expensive for the performance it gives.
Oh please. You're like the people begging for the PS4 hardware in desktop form because of how big was the GPU portion of the package. Zen3 launches in October, and on a per-core basis will obliterate anything you can get in a next-gen console. Cezanne in particular will be out in . . . March, I'm told? Maybe? We'll see. Yeah you'll still need a dGPU to beat a next-gen console. Big deal. There will be a lot of options!

The next-gen console hardware is inevitably more-expensive to produce than anything Renoir. It's purely market economics that are causing Renoir to cost as much as it does to purchase in comparison to said consoles. Don't expect console hardware prices to lower prices of anything else just because it exists. Renoir is priced against Picasso, and yes, AMD has raised prices from Picasso, but then they've added more CPU performance in considerable quantity, which is why they feel entitled to do so. They aren't going to start selling Renoir at a loss because such-and-such console (also sold at a loss) can outperform it at some TDP far outside of Renoir's range.
 

CluelessOne

Member
Jun 19, 2015
64
40
91
@Shivansps if you have the money there is nothing preventing you from buying your CPUs and GPUs by the reel directly from Intel, AMD or Nvidia as an OEM. I am sure they have substantial discounts for OEMs as Dell, HP or Lenovo certainly do not pay the same price as us mere retail customers.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,014
681
136
Oh please. You're like the people begging for the PS4 hardware in desktop form because of how big was the GPU portion of the package. Zen3 launches in October, and on a per-core basis will obliterate anything you can get in a next-gen console. Cezanne in particular will be out in . . . March, I'm told? Maybe? We'll see. Yeah you'll still need a dGPU to beat a next-gen console. Big deal. There will be a lot of options!

The next-gen console hardware is inevitably more-expensive to produce than anything Renoir. It's purely market economics that are causing Renoir to cost as much as it does to purchase in comparison to said consoles. Don't expect console hardware prices to lower prices of anything else just because it exists. Renoir is priced against Picasso, and yes, AMD has raised prices from Picasso, but then they've added more CPU performance in considerable quantity, which is why they feel entitled to do so. They aren't going to start selling Renoir at a loss because such-and-such console (also sold at a loss) can outperform it at some TDP far outside of Renoir's range.
Once the next-gen PC hardware is out well see, current-gen hardware is looking bad in value right now, and thats my point. Next gen AMD and Nvidia gpus, as well as Zen 3 may fix this.

BTW, not sure who wanted the PS4 SoC, but it would have been useless outside the console OS due to low CPU perf. These RDNA2 Zen 2 SoCs on other hand, may work for mobile but they probably use too much power for that.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,371
5,282
136
Once the next-gen PC hardware is out well see, current-gen hardware is looking bad in value right now, and thats my point. Next gen AMD and Nvidia gpus, as well as Zen 3 may fix this.
And my point is, your entire point is invalid, because you're using subsidized console hardware as a comparison, which is completely invalid. If you want to do a value comparison for Renoir, compare it to Picasso or Tiger Lake.

BTW, not sure who wanted the PS4 SoC
Numerous posters on this forum and elsewhere. It was a very common wish.
 
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YAYgee

Junior Member
May 4, 2020
15
7
41
Any idea when they won't be "OEM only" any longer?
In July AMD said that they are planning a consumer-grade release of APUs ‘soon’.
Seeing Computex was originally postponed from early June to September 28-30 (and later moved to next year) I guessed that date qualifies as "soon" or October 8, Zen 3 launch, can still be called "soon".

The R5 Pro 4650G is being sold for €199 (in Germany). Will the 4600G be priced the same (retail)?
 

KompuKare

Senior member
Jul 28, 2009
612
117
106
Any idea when they won't be "OEM only" any longer?
In July AMD said that they are planning a consumer-grade release of APUs ‘soon’.
Seeing Computex was originally postponed from early June to September 28-30 (and later moved to next year) I guessed that date qualifies as "soon" or October 8, Zen 3 launch, can still be called "soon".

The R5 Pro 4650G is being sold for €199 (in Germany). Will the 4600G be priced the same (retail)?
As soon as they can afford to allocate some parts?
These are the same dies as mobile and not being able to supply enough to those OEMs who have designed laptops must very embarrassing and reputational bad.
Possibly undoing years of work in OEM relationship, at least in the laptop markets.
Once that's sorted out, they'll probably then prioritize OEM desktop parts as again it's is very bad to their reputation of a major OEM had a design, possibly motherboards etc. but is waiting for CPUs.
Only after that will they worry about the DIY market, IMO.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,371
5,282
136
I have a 2400G and a 2200GE iirc. The new APU's just marginally better?
CPU-wise, the top-end desktop Renoir blows a 2400G out of the water. 8c/16t, sometimes overclockable, it's a beast. iGPU performance won't be that much better, though you can get faster RAM speeds on Renoir's IMC. DDR4-3600 is easily-achievable. On Raven Ridge, that was mostly a pipedream.
 

eek2121

Senior member
Aug 2, 2005
654
596
136
As soon as they can afford to allocate some parts?
These are the same dies as mobile and not being able to supply enough to those OEMs who have designed laptops must very embarrassing and reputational bad.
Possibly undoing years of work in OEM relationship, at least in the laptop markets.
Once that's sorted out, they'll probably then prioritize OEM desktop parts as again it's is very bad to their reputation of a major OEM had a design, possibly motherboards etc. but is waiting for CPUs.
Only after that will they worry about the DIY market, IMO.
It would not surprise me if Renoir ends up being OEM only. The early Zen 3 APU leak has me hopeful that we will see a Zen 3 APU launch alongside desktop chips.
 

eek2121

Senior member
Aug 2, 2005
654
596
136
And my point is, your entire point is invalid, because you're using subsidized console hardware as a comparison, which is completely invalid. If you want to do a value comparison for Renoir, compare it to Picasso or Tiger Lake.



Numerous posters on this forum and elsewhere. It was a very common wish.
It is an odd wish because such a chip isn’t likely to be cheap at retail.

EDIT: One thing they should consider doing is releasing a 95W Zen 3 APU with 16-20 Vega CUs.
 

NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
3,188
691
136
One thing they should consider doing is releasing a 95W Zen 3 APU with 16-20 Vega CUs.
Why, Vega CUs? Rembrandt is the mainline APU of Van Gogh.

Not only does it exist in two mobile sockets and it has a desktop socket as well.

Whereas Van Gogh is only a Set-top box like Chuwi's Aerobox and Xbox Series S(same chip)

Van Gogh = 8c/24cu (For customers like Chuwi/etc.)
Mero = 8c/24cu (For Microsoft)
Rembrandt = 8c/24cu (OEM/Retail) <== Zen3 for the plebs.

zen2rdna2gfx.jpg

Cadence IP => DDR5/GDDR6-Controller and PHY
AMD => GDDR6/DDR5 PHYs

AMD Renoir = ~20.16 mm2 Zen2 CCX
AMD/Microsoft Van Gogh/Mero = ~20.64 mm2 Zen2 CCX
AMD/Microsoft Arden = ~21.29 mm2 Zen2 CCX
Same DUV node all within the margin of error.
 
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YAYgee

Junior Member
May 4, 2020
15
7
41
It would not surprise me if Renoir ends up being OEM only. The early Zen 3 APU leak has me hopeful that we will see a Zen 3 APU launch alongside desktop chips.
https://www.computerbase.de/2020-09/asrock-deskmini-x300-test/#abschnitt_fazit_und_empfehlung (in German)
=> the DeskMini X300 has been designed for Renoir and will be for sale in October.
I had a look around and found a shop that will deliver starting from October 12.

The wait for an APU that can make use of B550/A520 video ports has been long enough. Hopefully they won't be too scarce.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,014
681
136
I have a 2400G and a 2200GE iirc. The new APU's just marginally better?
On CPU they are, the top Renoir is a 8C/16T Zen2 APU, on GPU is about 30-40% better than the 2400G, but remember it is a +u$s300 sku, the 2400G is $140.

Now if we are talking about the $150 4C/8T Renoir... its about the same GPU perf with better CPU perf, but if it is for a upgrade i would think in the the 6C/12T Renoir.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,014
681
136
The wait for an APU that can make use of B550/A520 video ports has been long enough. Hopefully they won't be too scarce.
The 3200G/3400G do work with the initial A520/B550 bios regrandless of what the sticker says, but Zen+ CPUs like the 2600 do not. But support may get removed in newer bios.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,014
681
136
Why, Vega CUs? Rembrandt is the mainline APU of Van Gogh.

Not only does it exist in two mobile sockets and it has a desktop socket as well.

Whereas Van Gogh is only a Set-top box like Chuwi's Aerobox and Xbox Series S(same chip)

Van Gogh = 8c/24cu (For customers like Chuwi/etc.)
Mero = 8c/24cu (For Microsoft)
Rembrandt = 8c/24cu (OEM/Retail) <== Zen3 for the plebs.

View attachment 30249

Cadence IP => DDR5/GDDR6-Controller and PHY
AMD => GDDR6/DDR5 PHYs

AMD Renoir = ~20.16 mm2 Zen2 CCX
AMD/Microsoft Van Gogh/Mero = ~20.64 mm2 Zen2 CCX
AMD/Microsoft Arden = ~21.29 mm2 Zen2 CCX
Same DUV node all within the margin of error.
The Zen3 with Vega CU is already happening, its called Cezanne, what i dont know if AMD is increasing CU count at least to match Picasso, as for the rest, seeing how small the Microsoft SKU is, 8C+24CU RDNA2 is possible, but i doubt it will happen with DDR5. RDNA2 was made for GDDR6, and 128bit DDR5 is not the same. I would think 16CU is about the max we can expect.
 

YAYgee

Junior Member
May 4, 2020
15
7
41
The 3200G/3400G do work with the initial A520/B550 bios regrandless of what the sticker says, but Zen+ CPUs like the 2600 do not. But support may get removed in newer bios.
Nice to know. So the 3000G would also work?
 

LightningZ71

Senior member
Mar 10, 2017
499
415
106
RDNA doesn't care what memory technology exists on the other side of the memory controller. All it cares about is throughput. 128 bits of top spec DDR5 will push as much meory bandwidth as: rx 550, rx560, the EDRAM cache in the first gen Xbox One. With the more efficient memory management of RDNA2, it should be fine for decent 1080p game play.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,014
681
136
RDNA doesn't care what memory technology exists on the other side of the memory controller. All it cares about is throughput. 128 bits of top spec DDR5 will push as much meory bandwidth as: rx 550, rx560, the EDRAM cache in the first gen Xbox One. With the more efficient memory management of RDNA2, it should be fine for decent 1080p game play.
That is why i think they will aim for RX570 perf on a IGP. Still it does not means they will fit 24CU just for fun when with 128bit of DDR5 there is no way to properly use them.
 

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