You need to make only $55,000 per day - that's it!

[Moonbeam]

Facts simply don't matter when the feels are so strong.

May I suggest you have feelings about that which I would refer to as irrational emotional contempt for people motivated by feeling, just like you are.

 

[Moonbeam]

Then how does this imagined self-superiority cost liberals elections?

Contempt for contemptibles that gets reciprocated.

 

[fskimospy]

Contempt for contemptibles that gets reciprocated.

So my original understanding of what you were saying was correct and this leads back to the original point - there's zero evidence that liberals being mean to people is what made people vote for Trump.

 

[Moonbeam]

No, I'm trying to understand your position which seems to defy all facts and evidence. The idea that people wouldn't care about racial inequality if you fixed class inequality is baffling. I'm not sure how anyone could actually believe that nonsense.

Class inequality fixed without regard to race means no racial inequality and no class inequality. It's fixing inequality across races. How is this not obvious?

 

[Jaskalas]

So my original understanding of what you were saying was correct and this leads back to the original point - there's zero evidence that liberals being mean to people is what made people vote for Trump.

Would you dispute that being able to connect and communicate with people on an empathic level is valuable at attaining their vote?

 

[fskimospy]

Class inequality fixed without regard to race means no racial inequality and no class inequality. It's fixing inequality across races. How is this not obvious?

You might want to read up on racism in the Soviet Union.

 

[fskimospy]

Would you dispute that being able to connect and communicate with people on an empathic level is valuable at attaining their vote?

Yes, definitely. The thing is that Moonbeam is getting the chain of causality wrong. Conservatives decided they hated liberals first, then decided on a reason second. Negative partisanship isn't logical and rooted in legitimate grievances, it's emotional and based in tribalism.

 

[Jaskalas]

Yes, definitely. The thing is that Moonbeam is getting the chain of causality wrong. Conservatives decided they hated liberals first, then decided on a reason second. Negative partisanship isn't logical and rooted in legitimate grievances, it's emotional and based in tribalism.

Maybe I can demonstrate it thus:

1. Deplorables.
2. Attack... attack... attack.

First step is admitting there was a problem.

 

[Jhhnn]

Maybe I can demonstrate it thus:

1. Deplorables.
2. Attack... attack... attack.

First step is admitting there was a problem.

As if TV ads tell the whole story. Social media & the internet have created a whole new paradigm.

 

[fskimospy]

Maybe I can demonstrate it thus:

1. Deplorables.
2. Attack... attack... attack.

First step is admitting there was a problem.

Hard to see how that relates to the topic. Again, there's zero evidence that liberals being mean was a driver of Trump voting.

 

[brycejones]

Maybe I can demonstrate it thus:

1. Deplorables.
2. Attack... attack... attack.

First step is admitting there was a problem.

Kind of ignores that Trump was getting probably more value in personal attacks just from his tweeting and campaign appearances that were reported as news but included his personal attacks on Clinton.

 

[Jaskalas]

Hard to see how that relates to the topic. Again, there's zero evidence that liberals being mean was a driver of Trump voting.

Assuming the bolded is worthy of being called the topic, then yes I do believe I am directly addressing it.

First by telling you that we need to connect and communicate with people on an empathic level.
And then I gave you a sample of how that sure as hell did not happen in 2016.

As if TV ads tell the whole story. Social media & the internet have created a whole new paradigm.

Right, that does represent its own fundamental crisis in effective communicating. When the noise is everywhere, just how does one transmit a valuable signal? But, all this aside... the signal one should be sending probably shouldn't be outright hostility and neglect for those sitting on the edge and looking for the next President to help them with policy. Where we need to humanize our campaign and drop it down to their level. To feel out and express their concerns.

I am simply stating that this did not occur in 2016. At least not for those specific voters who swung the EC by just 70,000 votes.

 

[Noah Abrams]

And as far as evidence goes, what evidence could I have presented when I knew from day one that Trump would win his primary? Was there any evidence. I bet none you saw but there was a world of it to me.

That is an important point, I think, which illustrates another huge weakness of the left, tied as they are to this mode of thinking which they consider scientific and rational. Actually it is a much deeper topic - people like David Brooks have written insightfully about it. The liberal belief that human beings are rational creatures and if we provide them with the right incentives they would do what we think they would do. A lot of social welfare is based on this fallacy. Liberalism being ultimately shallow does not understand human nature. This is why I am deeply skeptical of socialism as well.

Related to above, a less important point, is this obsession with data and evidence. What are called the data nerds, who find deep sexual ecstasy, this feel of deep satisfaction, inside a spreadsheet.

 

[cytg111]

That is an important point, I think, which illustrates another huge weakness of the left, tied as they are to this mode of thinking which they consider scientific and rational. Actually it is a much deeper topic - people like David Brooks have written insightfully about it. The liberal belief that human beings are rational creatures and if we provide them with the right incentives they would do what we think they would do. A lot of social welfare is based on this fallacy. Liberalism being ultimately shallow does not understand human nature.

Related to above, a less important point, is this obsession with data and evidence. What are called the data nerds, who find deep sexual ecstasy, this feel of deep satisfaction, inside a spreadsheet.

To assume that this definition of "human nature" is a static construct is also a fallacy IMO. As homo sapiens we are capable of adapting within very very large margins. Example you wont turn welfare recipients into workers in large numbers by taking food stamps away plus it feeds the the loathing and FYIGM mentality on the other side driving an even bigger wedge between what is essentially the same people.. The gap is imaginary and is put there to keep us fighting our selves.. Anyway, carrots come in many many forms and is 100x more effective than the whip.

 

[Moonbeam]

So my original understanding of what you were saying was correct and this leads back to the original point - there's zero evidence that liberals being mean to people is what made people vote for Trump.

What? Contempt for people you define as contemptible out of your own sense of moral superiority who turn around and vote for Trump to get even with you is the definition of liberal meanness causing people to vote for Trump. The only way I can think of as to why you don't see this is if you believe that contempt for others isn't mean. And the only way I can think of that you wouldn't know that is because you do not know how you feel, exactly what one can expect from a liberal with a liberal brain defect.

 

[Moonbeam]

You might want to read up on racism in the Soviet Union.

Yes, they have really fixed class inequality.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Class inequality, I wonder about this. Something so often discussed. But what does it mean for it to be fixed? Can it be? Is it possible? Has there been a human society in the history of mankind without class divisions? Is this chasing of a dangerous utopia? The kind which lead to what happened, the hell that was created, in USSR and China, by Stalin and Mao....so I just wonder.

 

[ivwshane]

Hardly odd. It explains everything. I just said that identity focus allows for dividing a majority class by race. Nobody will give a shit about race inequality if you fix class inequality without regard to race. This should be obvious. Are you pulling my leg?

That's amazingly ignorant. Its also the same type of thinking that cost Bernie the black vote. What you are basically saying is that without classes there is no racism and that's patently false as there is still racism (and sexism) present in all income classes.

 

[Noah Abrams]

That's amazingly ignorant. Its also the same type of thinking that cost Bernie the black vote. What you are basically saying is that without classes there is no racism and that's patently false as there is still racism (and sexism) present in all income classes.

The problem with words, any word, even strongly loaded words like racism, is that it means different things to different people. What is racist to one person is reality to another and so on. It is very complicated. This is even more true for the black community, a deeply troubled and highly dysfunctional one. And reasons for those are not all related to racism or history of it, as I perceive racism at least. Politically, they could do worse than get out of the shackles of the Democratic party, but I am not convinced their main issues are political in nature in the first place.

 

[dank69]

The problem with words, any word, even strongly loaded words like racism, is that it means different things to different people. What is racist to one person is reality to another and so on. It is very complicated. This is even more true for the black community, a deeply troubled and highly dysfunctional one. And reasons for those are not all related to racism or history of it, as I perceive racism at least. Politically, they could do worse than get out of the shackles of the Democratic party, but I am not convinced their main issues are political in nature in the first place.

It's refreshing to see someone talking about the black community as one thing and then assigning attributes like highly dysfunctional. I'm very surprised to see that you think that one person's racism is another's reality. It's really great to have you here to educate us on the topic of reality.

 

[Noah Abrams]

It's refreshing to see someone talking about the black community as one thing and then assigning attributes like highly dysfunctional. I'm very surprised to see that you think that one person's racism is another's reality. It's really great to have you here to educate us on the topic of reality.

If you put aside the condescending for a bit, maybe there could be a conversation. There are far deeper issues in the American psyche, and the dysfunctional situation of the black community is not separate from it. You can assign any label to me and that’s ok. I’m ignorant that’s ok. But can we move beyond that...

I think the Muslim world is dysfunctional in many many ways. Really messed up. Yet I strongly defend Muslims in America

 

[Jhhnn]

Class inequality, I wonder about this. Something so often discussed. But what does it mean for it to be fixed? Can it be? Is it possible? Has there been a human society in the history of mankind without class divisions? Is this chasing of a dangerous utopia? The kind which lead to what happened, the hell that was created, in USSR and China, by Stalin and Mao....so I just wonder.

You ignore what's happened to us since trickle down Reaganomics supplanted the New Deal. Since 1980, the bottom 50% share of national income fell by 35%. the 50-75% share of national income fell by 20%. That's an enormous hit on the middle class. Enormous. The top 1% share of income more than doubled. The top .1% share of income is now higher than what the 1% took in 1980. It's almost as large as the lower 50% combined.

Table 5-

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2015-update

 

[Jaskalas]

Class inequality, I wonder about this. Something so often discussed. But what does it mean for it to be fixed? Can it be?

Turn your attention from that phrase and back towards Income Inequality. If you can visualize the LOSS in value from the lower and middle class of America since the golden days of the 1950s and 60s, then you can realize the difference, the gap. Once our loss is quantified, a resolution becomes obvious. Work towards restoring that lost wealth.

And we can do this by establishing a fully fledged economic and social safety net. Once you work with the numbers you realize it is easily achievable with our $15.5 trillion in annual personal income. The primary issue is we resist the reality of the situation, and thus reject the solutions for it. Americans are, thus far, some combination of fat, lazy, and fearful. FYGM is a publicly accepted policy because people are afraid of a government that can help them, or too comfortable in their slowly sinking lives to support a significant, and helpful, change in policy.

First step, recognize the problem.
A millennial, working the same job, is DIRT POOR compared to their parents.

 

[Noah Abrams]

Yes the facts are there for all to see (in response to both of the above posts). But how do we know what are the causes? Is it just public policy? It can never be that simple in such a complex world. Let me make a feeble attempt to list a very few handful of other causes

- Rise of manufacturing in China
- India since early 90s abandoning the socialism of Nehru and his daughter Indira and moving towards free markets. Opening up its economy.
- Rise of education in other parts of the world, not least India.
- Changing nature of world economy itself. New technologies. See above related to this point.
- Disintegration of family in America. Especially severe in black community but hardly confined to that.

The list can just go on and on. Who knows what exactly caused what? These things are so complex. If someone just wants to prove a point, they can cherry pick stats. But in reality I don't think the experts know that much. We have an army of well paid experts, analysts and what not in the oil field and they can barely predict the price of oil. This is just one example...

So to be honest, I really don't know. The social, cultural, economic are all so closely inter related and America's decline just hasn't been about one.

 

[Moonbeam]

That's amazingly ignorant. Its also the same type of thinking that cost Bernie the black vote. What you are basically saying is that without classes there is no racism and that's patently false as there is still racism (and sexism) present in all income classes.

God, could you please think. I am not talking about ending racism in people who are racists or susceptible, who easily fall for appeals to racism, I am talking about reducing the cultural conditions that create and fan racial tension, fear that one race will be politically favored by one party over another. The tighter the democrats focus on racism against various minorities in a difficult and fear stressed economic condition, and the worse that economic situation becomes, the greater the opportunity of and here the republican party to exploit those racial fears. All I am saying is an economic message directed at people of all colors identically become harder for republicans to exploit, to fan, to encourage racists to take to the streets and march around proudly with their guns.

What I am saying is that racism is the cause of one kind of economic disparity and class warfare is a cause of another form of it. Fix the economic disparity and you fix the economic effects of racism, not racism itself. In a prosperous society full of economic justice, liberal values flower. In a competitive and divided country full of economic fear, everybody becomes a conservative. It makes no difference that Sanders lost the black vote in the primary. He had the message that would win the general and Clinton had the one that would lose it. Democrats more than just Blacks, voted for the wrong message. You are not a racist if you also want class justice for middle and lower class white people. But it's easy to defeat somebody who makes that his focus rather than one on race when your platform is racial identity. You just play to another different group of aggrieved frightened people. By the time America is minority white, there will be millions of wealthier minorities to swell their ranks. Conservatives in a competitive and harsh society will care more about their income than their own race.