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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Yes the facts are there for all to see (in response to both of the above posts). But how do we know what are the causes? Is it just public policy? It can never be that simple in such a complex world. Let me make a feeble attempt to list a very few handful of other causes

- Rise of manufacturing in China
- India since early 90s abandoning the socialism of Nehru and his daughter Indira and moving towards free markets. Opening up its economy.
- Rise of education in other parts of the world, not least India.
- Changing nature of world economy itself. New technologies. See above related to this point.
- Disintegration of family in America. Especially severe in black community but hardly confined to that.

The list can just go on and on. Who knows what exactly caused what? These things are so complex. If someone just wants to prove a point, they can cherry pick stats. But in reality I don't think the experts know that much. We have an army of well paid experts, analysts and what not in the oil field and they can barely predict the price of oil. This is just one example...

So to be honest, I really don't know. The social, cultural, economic are all so closely inter related and America's decline just hasn't been about one.

The cause is obvious- top down class warfare executed behind a screen of divisive right wing propaganda. All those rightfully disgruntled Trump voters? Dumped by the ownership class. They own, you don't. There are no stakeholders other than the shareholders & the bondholders. They're not accountable to the rest of us because they're rich. It's like the Divine Right of Capital.

The GOP's latest tax plan just makes the situation worse. Their moves to cut benefits to Americans who depend on them just makes the situation worse. They know it. To vote for them is to endorse unfathomable greed at the top.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
136
You aren't listening. They got ALL the emails. You can look at every single email. I just told you about the ONLY email that when spun correctly could support your claim but when viewed objectively does not even come close to supporting it.

That's like a right wing conspiracy theory, only different. It's a success story for Vlad's boys.

What do you think, that with a total of 19,000 emails they got the entirety of the DNC's communications, which employs at the least over 100 staffers? And they got some of Podesta's emails, which were 50,000. That's one guy, 50,000 emails and you think that 19,252 emails from the rest of the DNC was all their communications?

"It was 4 p.m. on Friday June 10 when some 100 staffers filed into the Democratic National Committee’s main conference room for a mandatory, all-hands meeting."
https://www.apnews.com/dea73efc01594839957c3c9a6c962b8a

Also as per the same article, most emails were not kept for more than 30 days "Most messages were deleted after 30 days and staff went through phishing drills"

The fact is that was just a small part of their communications, it did not include a lot of other kinds of communications as well. And they found some smoke. Good chance of a fire there is the main point.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,485
16,950
136
God, could you please think. I am not talking about ending racism in people who are racists or susceptible, who easily fall for appeals to racism, I am talking about reducing the cultural conditions that create and fan racial tension, fear that one race will be politically favored by one party over another. The tighter the democrats focus on racism against various minorities in a difficult and fear stressed economic condition, and the worse that economic situation becomes, the greater the opportunity of and here the republican party to exploit those racial fears. All I am saying is an economic message directed at people of all colors identically become harder for republicans to exploit, to fan, to encourage racists to take to the streets and march around proudly with their guns.

What I am saying is that racism is the cause of one kind of economic disparity and class warfare is a cause of another form of it. Fix the economic disparity and you fix the economic effects of racism, not racism itself. In a prosperous society full of economic justice, liberal values flower. In a competitive and divided country full of economic fear, everybody becomes a conservative. It makes no difference that Sanders lost the black vote in the primary. He had the message that would win the general and Clinton had the one that would lose it. Democrats more than just Blacks, voted for the wrong message. You are not a racist if you also want class justice for middle and lower class white people. But it's easy to defeat somebody who makes that his focus rather than one on race when your platform is racial identity. You just play to another different group of aggrieved frightened people. By the time America is minority white, there will be millions of wealthier minorities to swell their ranks. Conservatives in a competitive and harsh society will care more about their income than their own race.

I know what you are saying and I wasn't talking about blatant racism, that's barely an issue now. What's at issue is the unconscious biases and systemic racism. None of that is fixed if economic conditions are improved. I'm sure there is a case that economic equality (or what ever you wish to call it) would lessen the effects of someone, like trump, using dog whistles and "others" as scapegoats but it doesn't change the other things.

I also disagree with the premise of your second paragraph. Bernie's better message wasn't going to be the winning strategy either. It didn't work with a majority of Democrats and there isn't any indication it would have resonated with Republicans. In fact most of the candidates Bernie has endorsed since, have lost, so that completely contradicts your narrative.

As for playing to another different, aggrieved, frightened people, what do you think Bernie's message railing against the billionaire donor class is.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,485
16,950
136
What do you think, that with a total of 19,000 emails they got the entirety of the DNC's communications, which employs at the least over 100 staffers? And they got some of Podesta's emails, which were 50,000. That's one guy, 50,000 emails and you think that 19,252 emails from the rest of the DNC was all their communications?

"It was 4 p.m. on Friday June 10 when some 100 staffers filed into the Democratic National Committee’s main conference room for a mandatory, all-hands meeting."
https://www.apnews.com/dea73efc01594839957c3c9a6c962b8a

Also as per the same article, most emails were not kept for more than 30 days "Most messages were deleted after 30 days and staff went through phishing drills"

The fact is that was just a small part of their communications, it did not include a lot of other kinds of communications as well. And they found some smoke. Good chance of a fire there is the main point.

Lol

It feels true so it must be right?

When exactly did you start believing in conspiracy theories?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
What do you think, that with a total of 19,000 emails they got the entirety of the DNC's communications, which employs at the least over 100 staffers? And they got some of Podesta's emails, which were 50,000. That's one guy, 50,000 emails and you think that 19,252 emails from the rest of the DNC was all their communications?

"It was 4 p.m. on Friday June 10 when some 100 staffers filed into the Democratic National Committee’s main conference room for a mandatory, all-hands meeting."
https://www.apnews.com/dea73efc01594839957c3c9a6c962b8a

The fact is that was just a small part of their communications, it did not include a lot of other kinds of communications.

I didn't realize the pro-HIlary folks were this bad. I voted for her, even though I didn't have to in NJ, because I thought it was important, but man I didn't know here supporters could be such shills.

Has it occurred to you that the hackers only released what they wanted to release?

One set of hackers was in the DNC's shorts from the summer of 2015 until evicted in may of 2016.

https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/

It's all a perfectly circular Crooked Hillary! conspiracy theory, anyway. You assume Bernie was cheated & set out to justify that belief even if it involves moving into the realm of make believe.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
136
Lol

It feels true so it must be right?

When exactly did you start believing in conspiracy theories?

There were a couple emails that specifically talked about strategy to work against Sanders. One was about his religion, or lack thereof. Another about his campaign being a mess. It is quite likely in tons of emails of accounts not hacked, plus in communications such as text, phone and in person, that there was more. Maybe not. But there is a good chance there was. Considering the way the debates were scheduled and how many, the perception that the status quo was in the tank for the annointed one, Hilary, is easy to obtain. There was some smoke there, and we will never know either way. The fact of the matter is it was enough for Schultz to have to resign, and then Hilary had to hire her, in a show of support. Stupid.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,485
16,950
136
There were a couple emails that specifically talked about strategy to work against Sanders. One was about his religion, or lack thereof. Another about his campaign being a mess. It is quite likely in tons of emails of accounts not hacked, plus in communications such as text, phone and in person, that there was more. Maybe not. But there is a good chance there was. Considering the way the debates were scheduled and how many, the perception that the status quo was in the tank for the annointed one, Hilary, is easy to obtain. There was some smoke there, and we will never know either way. The fact of the matter is it was enough for Schultz to have to resign, and then Hilary had to hire her, in a show of support. Stupid.

And? Tell me how many anti Bernie ads do you recall seeing? How many of those ads made you change your vote?

There was zero smoke, you just don't want to admit it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,718
6,749
126
I know what you are saying and I wasn't talking about blatant racism, that's barely an issue now. What's at issue is the unconscious biases and systemic racism. None of that is fixed if economic conditions are improved. I'm sure there is a case that economic equality (or what ever you wish to call it) would lessen the effects of someone, like trump, using dog whistles and "others" as scapegoats but it doesn't change the other things.

I also disagree with the premise of your second paragraph. Bernie's better message wasn't going to be the winning strategy either. It didn't work with a majority of Democrats and there isn't any indication it would have resonated with Republicans. In fact most of the candidates Bernie has endorsed since, have lost, so that completely contradicts your narrative.

As for playing to another different, aggrieved, frightened people, what do you think Bernie's message railing against the billionaire donor class is.
What is the problem with racism. Isn't it the effect. Why would you give a rats ass who is a racist so long as their opinion has no effect on you. You are focused on curing racism and I'm focused on curing its effects, rampant economic inequality. To change our system we need to win elections, have a majority vote. The way to achieve a majority vote is to appeal to a majority of the people. A message that appeals to a majority won't have a racial component. The fact that democrats can let go of racial identity as a theme means they will continue to lose elections with the exception that republican ineptitude in governance when it becomes blatant enough will cause themselves to lose. The problem then is that democrats are so fucked up they can't let go of what causes them to lose. The whole effort I make here is to make headway against that.

Sanders message in railing against the 1% is that they are the actual cause of economic inequality. They are eating the whole pie. Democracy is dead. That is the one and only issue that matters.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
136
What is the problem with racism. Isn't it the effect. Why would you give a rats ass who is a racist so long as their opinion has no effect on you. You are focused on curing racism and I'm focused on curing its effects, rampant economic inequality. To change our system we need to win elections, have a majority vote. The way to achieve a majority vote is to appeal to a majority of the people. A message that appeals to a majority won't have a racial component. The fact that democrats can let go of racial identity as a theme means they will continue to lose elections with the exception that republican ineptitude in governance when it becomes blatant enough will cause themselves to lose. The problem then is that democrats are so fucked up they can't let go of what causes them to lose. The whole effort I make here is to make headway against that.

Sanders message in railing against the 1% is that they are the actual cause of economic inequality. They are eating the whole pie. Democracy is dead. That is the one and only issue that matters.

Whole lot of truth in here. The more Democrats hold onto identity politics the worse it will get for them at the polling stations. I won't say economic inequality is the only issue that matters, but it sure is the primary one. It's the economy stupid.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,687
9,990
136
It's the economy stupid.

The economy is what forced me to flip party identity.

But very few people are capable of making that leap while under partisan assault. If they feel no empathy, or connection coming from the other side. I suppose that's the sort of thing identity politics aims to provide... but that initiative is busy signing to the choir for small numbers of people instead of working on swaying the majority of voters.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,485
16,950
136
What is the problem with racism. Isn't it the effect. Why would you give a rats ass who is a racist so long as their opinion has no effect on you. You are focused on curing racism and I'm focused on curing its effects, rampant economic inequality. To change our system we need to win elections, have a majority vote. The way to achieve a majority vote is to appeal to a majority of the people. A message that appeals to a majority won't have a racial component. The fact that democrats can let go of racial identity as a theme means they will continue to lose elections with the exception that republican ineptitude in governance when it becomes blatant enough will cause themselves to lose. The problem then is that democrats are so fucked up they can't let go of what causes them to lose. The whole effort I make here is to make headway against that.

Sanders message in railing against the 1% is that they are the actual cause of economic inequality. They are eating the whole pie. Democracy is dead. That is the one and only issue that matters.

Its clear you aren't interested in a discussion as you continually ignore what I actually posted and instead focus on repeating your already debunked talking points.

Have a good night.
 

Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
millions of wealthier minorities to swell their ranks. Conservatives in a competitive and harsh society will care more about their income than their own race.

The wealthy section of the Indian community strongly supported the vile one during the election campaign, not least financially. They are the believers in Hinduvta, the Hindu nationalism, and have intense hatred for the Muslims. There was this campaign event in America which made the news too, organized by them with the vile one present. In a stage play, there is this Muslim 'terrorist' that appears and who is then killed by the Hindus. The vile one sure knows how to attract the most dirtiest elements of the society, that is for sure!
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,306
32,895
136
What do you think, that with a total of 19,000 emails they got the entirety of the DNC's communications, which employs at the least over 100 staffers? And they got some of Podesta's emails, which were 50,000. That's one guy, 50,000 emails and you think that 19,252 emails from the rest of the DNC was all their communications?

"It was 4 p.m. on Friday June 10 when some 100 staffers filed into the Democratic National Committee’s main conference room for a mandatory, all-hands meeting."
https://www.apnews.com/dea73efc01594839957c3c9a6c962b8a

Also as per the same article, most emails were not kept for more than 30 days "Most messages were deleted after 30 days and staff went through phishing drills"

The fact is that was just a small part of their communications, it did not include a lot of other kinds of communications as well. And they found some smoke. Good chance of a fire there is the main point.
No, there was zero smoke. Think about that. Hackers peeked behind the curtain of one of the major parties, a party made of politicians we all just assume are some of the most corrupt people on the planet and they found nothing. They found so much nothing they had to lie to you about what they found, and you seem pretty determined to continue to believe those lies.

Have a look at this analysis:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/23/us/politics/dnc-emails-sanders-clinton.html

Let's see if you can spot the giant leaps in logic.
 
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1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
I know what you are saying and I wasn't talking about blatant racism, that's barely an issue now. What's at issue is the unconscious biases and systemic racism. None of that is fixed if economic conditions are improved. I'm sure there is a case that economic equality (or what ever you wish to call it) would lessen the effects of someone, like trump, using dog whistles and "others" as scapegoats but it doesn't change the other things.
.

Start by having elite liberals tear down their proud racist liberal infrastructure that promotes racism and then worry about some confederate flag, statue, or Trump dog whistle.

The lingering effects of NYC's racist city planning

New York City was famously shaped by the powerful urban planner Robert Moses who, along with being a visionary, was demonstrably racist. Hopes&Fears takes a look at how his decisions, and those of his successors, still affect access and opportunity for minorities today. NYC is just one example of how systemic oppression affects the planning of cities across the country.

http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/...lingering-effects-of-nyc-racist-city-planning

The fair housing laws passed in the last half-century have forced racists to devise whole new methods of discrimination, subtler but serving the same purpose: to keep people of color out of "white" spaces. The villains in these cases—landlords, brokers and neighbors—are often tough to identify, but, once exposed, are easy to loathe. It's harder to find fault with a sidewalk or a highway; when some feature of the city has seemingly always been there, you can lose sight of the fact that it was once new, conceived and constructed by people with their own inbuilt prejudices. But a city's landscape can exclude as effectively as any policy or person, in subtle but sinister ways.



The power broker
Sarah Schindler, a law professor at the University of Maine, recently took up the subject in a paper for the Yale Law Journal. In it, she cites The Power Broker, Robert Caro's vast, obsessively researched biography of the builder Robert Moses, a man whose grand vision and ruthless drive shaped huge portions of New York State in the early-to-mid-twentieth century. Moses was, without qualification, a racist. As Caro writes, "Moses had always displayed contempt for people he felt were considerably beneath him," such as the "colored 'subject people' of the British Empire." Caro also says that Moses considered African-Americans "inherently 'dirty'."

His prejudice methodically informed New York's present-day geography, most glaringly in the case of Long Island parks like Jones Beach. "Moses was interested in maintaining these Long Island beaches as pristine places for the people he wanted to be there," Schindler told Hopes&Fears. Moses' solution, in Caro's telling, was to intentionally build the Long Island Parkway overpasses with clearances as low as 7’7”, ensuring that buses would never be able to go under them. (In contrast, the minimum vertical clearance for overhead structures on the Interstate Highway is 16 feet in rural areas and 14 feet in urban areas.)
 
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Noah Abrams

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,041
109
76
That’s an interesting one. Low clearance so that buses can’t pass. Ha! Man is such a clever creature.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,485
16,950
136
Start by having elite liberals tear down their proud racist liberal infrastructure that promotes racism and then worry about some confederate flag, statue, or Trump dog whistle.

The lingering effects of NYC's racist city planning

New York City was famously shaped by the powerful urban planner Robert Moses who, along with being a visionary, was demonstrably racist. Hopes&Fears takes a look at how his decisions, and those of his successors, still affect access and opportunity for minorities today. NYC is just one example of how systemic oppression affects the planning of cities across the country.

http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/...lingering-effects-of-nyc-racist-city-planning

Your concern trolling noted.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
136
economic equality will help slow down racism. the more people are doing well economically, the less they'll need someone else to feel better than and/or to blame
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,485
16,950
136
economic equality will help slow down racism. the more people are doing well economically, the less they'll need someone else to feel better than and/or to blame

Yeah, no. That's wishful thinking at best and ignorance at worst.
Again, the major type of racism that exists today isn't the blatant, "I hate people different than me", or "X race is inferior", its systemic and unconscious biases.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
economic equality will help slow down racism. the more people are doing well economically, the less they'll need someone else to feel better than and/or to blame

Yeah, no. That's wishful thinking at best and ignorance at worst.
Again, the major type of racism that exists today isn't the blatant, "I hate people different than me", or "X race is inferior", its systemic and unconscious biases.

You're both kinda right. Middle America, which is mostly White, has taken a serious beat down at the hands of the financial elite over the last few decades. The stress causes them to look for easy answers & to be vulnerable to demagoguery & wedge issue politics of all flavors. They're quick to blame anybody other than themselves for not seeing past the rhetoric of freedumb. All their best qualities- their work ethic, their competitiveness, their self reliance, their pride, their perseverance & loyalty are cruelly turned against them.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
I'm disturbed by the number of people both millionaires and working poor who think the wealthy shouldn't work. As if money precludes the need to accomplish something other than the accumulation of more wealth.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
I'm disturbed by the number of people both millionaires and working poor who think the wealthy shouldn't work. As if money precludes the need to accomplish something other than the accumulation of more wealth.

The right wing billionaires funding the GOP do work hard- to satisfy their unfathomable greed. They're in it to win it, every day of their lives, even if the only difference is a fatter balance sheet.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,485
16,950
136
You're both kinda right. Middle America, which is mostly White, has taken a serious beat down at the hands of the financial elite over the last few decades. The stress causes them to look for easy answers & to be vulnerable to demagoguery & wedge issue politics of all flavors. They're quick to blame anybody other than themselves for not seeing past the rhetoric of freedumb. All their best qualities- their work ethic, their competitiveness, their self reliance, their pride, their perseverance & loyalty are cruelly turned against them.

Yes and as I said, with economic equality, scapegoating and demonization of people would likely have less of an impact but that wouldn't affect the less blatant forms of racism.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
136
Yes and as I said, with economic equality, scapegoating and demonization of people would likely have less of an impact but that wouldn't affect the less blatant forms of racism.

I don't think a level economic playing field will simply cure all racism but once you start to get there it will be a hell of lot easier to tackle systemic racist problems like the criminal system and prison reform. plus it will win you elections and with power, then you can tackle all sorts of racism. can't do it when you don't control the strings of power.