Woodward/Costa book: Worried Trump could 'go rogue,' Milley took top-secret action to protect nuclear weapons

[Luna1968]

False, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the constitution.

There are of course procedures in place to launch but they exist at the pleasure of the president. There is currently no statute that prohibits first use of nuclear weapons by the president and even if there were there’s a decent chance it would be unconstitutional.

The procedures that do exist are ones developed by DOD and therefore inherently cannot bind the president as he is the source of authority behind all of them.

I didn't say anything about the constitution. where did you get that or are you assuming that is what I meant? I am very familiar with the DoD and DoE rules when it comes to nukes. and I worked on First Strike Tomahawk missiles. I really don't think you know what you are talking about other than the shit you find on google. as I said earlier. the president can not just wake up one day and decide to toss nukes at somebody. that will never happen. if Milley thinks he stopped such a thing he is seriously mentally impaired.

 

[emperus]

ill repeat. IT WAS NOT THE JOB OF THE JOINT CHIEF OF STAFF TO CALL THE CHINESE ON ANYTHING. especially if for some stupid reason we were going to attack the Chinese. how can you possibly defend a general doing such a thing? it is mind-boggling.

We were going to attack the Chinese? Do you hear yourself. China is a nuclear power. If we were going to attack China, it is something that had better have been discussed in Congress. It's not a decision no President should make alone. And I'm sure China intelligence has a C-Span.

You can believe Milley is part of the Military Industrial Complex and supports that in disregard to other things. But to seriously argue he would put China ahead of the US? I think you've lost the lead.

 

[Luna1968]

Even if it’s 100% true he will be fine.

that is highly highly distrubing.

 

[Luna1968]

We were going to attack the Chinese?

nope. i did not say we were. here is what i said let me quote it for you. "IT WAS NOT THE JOB OF THE JOINT CHIEF OF STAFF TO CALL THE CHINESE ON ANYTHING. especially if for some stupid reason we were going to attack the Chinese. " nothing like letting an enemy know we are coming right and that is just cool with you.

 

[fskimospy]

I didn't say anything about the constitution. where did you get that or are you assuming that is what I meant? I am very familiar with the DoD and DoE rules when it comes to nukes. and I worked on First Strike Tomahawk missiles. I really don't think you know what you are talking about other than the shit you find on google. as I said earlier. the president can not just wake up one day and decide to toss nukes at somebody. that will never happen. if Milley thinks he stopped such a thing he is seriously mentally impaired.

Yes, he literally can.

I understand you didn't say anything about the constitution but if you don't think that the president can instantly invalidate 100% of those procedures then you don't understand the Constitution. Every procedure you know exists only as long as the president wants it to exist. The instant he doesn't, bombs away.

 

[fskimospy]

that is highly highly distrubing.

Meh, I'm torn on it. On one hand it is troubling that this puts some cracks in civilian control of the military, I agree. On the other hand he was reacting to a psychopath who just attempted a coup. When the president is trying to overthrow the Constitution to stay in power extreme measures are reasonable to protect the country from a criminal.

 

[HomerJS]

I didn't say anything about the constitution. where did you get that or are you assuming that is what I meant? I am very familiar with the DoD and DoE rules when it comes to nukes. and I worked on First Strike Tomahawk missiles. I really don't think you know what you are talking about other than the shit you find on google. as I said earlier. the president can not just wake up one day and decide to toss nukes at somebody. that will never happen. if Milley thinks he stopped such a thing he is seriously mentally impaired.

So are you saying we would never elect such a person who would do that or do we have people who would disobey a direct order from POTUS?

I do know one thing the military can disobey an order if it is...

illegal
immoral
unethical

All Millie was doing was reminding his people of this

 

[emperus]

nope. i did not say we were. here is what i said let me quote it for you. "IT WAS NOT THE JOB OF THE JOINT CHIEF OF STAFF TO CALL THE CHINESE ON ANYTHING. especially if for some stupid reason we were going to attack the Chinese. " nothing like letting an enemy know we are coming right and that is just cool with you.

This is the kind of thinking Right wing propaganda forces on you. Instead of talking in paraphrases and talking points, why don't you string a whole complete thought together. In what circumstance do you really believe that the US would be bombing China and in that circumstance do you 100% honestly believe Milley would warm them if it was a stealth attack? My gosh, ween your mind off the propaganda.

 

[K1052]

as I said earlier. the president can not just wake up one day and decide to toss nukes at somebody

Yes, he definitely has this ability. Congress has over the years proposed withdrawing first strike authority from the presidency but not actually done anything with it.

In 1974 Nixon famously told a few members of congress in a meeting essentially "I can pick up the phone in the next room and in 25 minutes millions of people will die". He was quite accurately describing his powers.

 

[Greenman]

Not really but carry on if it makes you feel better about consistently supporting fascists against you own self interest. Moonie's self-hate hypothesis gains traction every day.

My not believing a "bombshell" story without any corroboration is supporting fascists?

Generally speaking, idiots don't rise to the top in military command. The story as presented paints Milley in a very bad light, and making very foolish decisions. That's why I doubt it occurred as written. While the basic events could well have occurred within the confines of normal operations, the story as presented paints Milley as a rouge General. That's just about as bad as a crazy president.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes, he definitely has this ability. Congress has over the years proposed withdrawing first strike authority from the presidency but not actually done anything with it.

In 1974 Nixon famously told a few members of congress in a meeting essentially "I can pick up the phone in the next room and in 25 minutes millions of people will die". He was quite accurately describing his powers.

He's referencing his experience and the extensive series of steps that it currently takes to launch nuclear weapons. (and rightly so!)

What he doesn't seem to understand is that the source of authority for those procedures flows entirely from the president so he can disregard them at will. The president might face practical difficulties in doing this (people refusing to follow orders, resigning, alerting the media/congress) but he faces no LEGAL obstacles here.

 

[HomerJS]

My not believing a "bombshell" story without any corroboration is supporting fascists?

Generally speaking, idiots don't rise to the top in military command. The story as presented paints Milley in a very bad light, and making very foolish decisions. That's why I doubt it occurred as written. While the basic events could well have occurred within the confines of normal operations, the story as presented paints Milley as a rouge General. That's just about as bad as a crazy president.

Because the actions of a crazy President wrought the decisions by Millie suggests you have skewed priorities

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

The president might face practical difficulties in doing this (people refusing to follow orders, resigning, alerting the media/congress) but he faces no LEGAL obstacles here.

Which is ironically exactly what we're probably seeing from this general, an unwillingness to comply with the CIC's orders to do something insane, but well within his legal rights to do.

Makes you wonder if those posters would 'just follow orders'.

 

[cytg111]

Beau with a couple counterpoints

 

[fskimospy]

My not believing a "bombshell" story without any corroboration is supporting fascists?

Generally speaking, idiots don't rise to the top in military command. The story as presented paints Milley in a very bad light, and making very foolish decisions. That's why I doubt it occurred as written. While the basic events could well have occurred within the confines of normal operations, the story as presented paints Milley as a rouge General. That's just about as bad as a crazy president.

He's painted as going rogue against a guy who just attempted a coup. I think a decent percentage of people view that as a feature, not a bug.

One flaw in American thinking IMO is that we think the rules will save us. I see this in the NFL too where they have attempted to legislate the game to a perfect state and all they are doing is screwing it up. We think if Congress just passes the right legislation, if we just make the right legal arguments, that everything will turn out okay. This is a fantasy, and its most easily seen in the constitutions of the Soviet Union and North Korea, both of which guarantee more expansive freedoms than ours does.

When it comes to things like Trump's attempt to illegally hold on to power faithfulness to the country and our system of government is more important than faithfulness to the letter of the law. Trump was already attempting to get the legal results of the election thrown out and it seems like he came reasonably close to succeeding.

 

[fskimospy]

Which is ironically exactly what we're probably seeing from this general, an unwillingness to comply with the CIC's orders to do something insane, but well within his legal rights to do.

Makes you wonder if those posters would 'just follow orders'.

Yes, exactly. There comes a point when we shouldn't just want, but should demand our generals refuse lawful orders because in the end their oath is to defend the Constitution.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

He's painted as going rogue against a guy who just attempted a coup. I think a decent percentage of people view that as a feature, not a bug.

One flaw in American thinking IMO is that we think the rules will save us. I see this in the NFL too where they have attempted to legislate the game to a perfect state and all they are doing is screwing it up. We think if Congress just passes the right legislation, if we just make the right legal arguments, that everything will turn out okay. This is a fantasy, and its most easily seen in the constitutions of the Soviet Union and North Korea, both of which guarantee more expansive freedoms than ours does.

When it comes to things like Trump's attempt to illegally hold on to power faithfulness to the country and our system of government is more important than faithfulness to the letter of the law. Trump was already attempting to get the legal results of the election thrown out and it seems like he came reasonably close to succeeding.

Right... all this shit is only held together by the people willing to play by the rules. You can't legislate it away unless you hand over the keys to the kingdom to an AI that's impervious to human desires.

What's the phrase? Civilization is 10 missed meals from anarchy?

 

[woolfe9998]

I feel like this guy. He sums it up pretty well. It isn't so much the facts or misrepresentations of the facts. But the feel you get from the books. It reads like a tabloid you would pick up at the cash register at the grocers. Bob has an agenda IMO.

I Read Every Bob Woodward Book. Here’s How They Stack Up.

Yes, I ranked them—even <i>Fear</i>.

www.politico.com

14. Fear

Donald Trump makes for pretty good copy, even if Woodward hasn’t turned up all that much—or at least all that much beyond the book’s jaw-dropping prologue, in which Gary Cohn lifts a document (an order to withdraw from a trade agreement with South Korea that Trump was about to sign) from the president’s desk. The theme, beyond Trump’s ignorance and dishonesty, is that the deep state is real: An “administrative coup d’état” has been carried out by Trump’s Cabinet and staff to contradict the president’s constitutional authority. For instance, when Trump tells James Mattis, “Let’s go in; let’s kill the fucking lot of them” after a Syrian chemical attack, Mattis hangs up and tells an aide, “We’re not going to do any of that.”

It’s also just super dishy. Trump says H.R. McMaster dresses like a “beer salesman.” Jared Kushner tells Steve Bannon of his father-in-law, “He doesn’t have a lot of cash.” Trump asks Kellyanne Conway, before offering her the job as his campaign manager, “Are you willing to not see your kids for a few months?” We go deep inside the Rex Tillerson “fucking moron” meeting at the Pentagon. An image of Trump’s handwriting—the words “TRADE IS BAD” on a speech he’s revising—is reproduced.

At the same time, you can tell that this one was put together on deadline. Woodward’s books are often most interesting when he inserts himself as a character and reveals his reportorial decision-making and the Post’s newsroom deliberations alongside the White House dope. In Fear, those moments of journalistic drama are replaced with moments in which Woodward reveals observations he made during his appearances on Fox News Sunday.

How compelling the facts are that Woodward describes in his books is immaterial to this discussion. What is material is whether they are true or not. Hence, your link containing a subjective review of how entertaining Woodward's first book on Trump was has no bearing on this discussion. It doesn't even pertain to the current book.

So I take it you actually read that book? Because TBH I tend to doubt you did.

 

[cytg111]

Also, Psaki

https://twitter.com/x/status/1438346123819765760

 

[Greenman]

He's painted as going rogue against a guy who just attempted a coup. I think a decent percentage of people view that as a feature, not a bug.

One flaw in American thinking IMO is that we think the rules will save us. I see this in the NFL too where they have attempted to legislate the game to a perfect state and all they are doing is screwing it up. We think if Congress just passes the right legislation, if we just make the right legal arguments, that everything will turn out okay. This is a fantasy, and its most easily seen in the constitutions of the Soviet Union and North Korea, both of which guarantee more expansive freedoms than ours does.

When it comes to things like Trump's attempt to illegally hold on to power faithfulness to the country and our system of government is more important than faithfulness to the letter of the law. Trump was already attempting to get the legal results of the election thrown out and it seems like he came reasonably close to succeeding.

That's an interesting justification that isn't pertinent to the story as written. Was Trump talking about a preemptive strike on China? Did he ask to have the football cracked open? Did he order the joint chiefs to prepare for war? We're talking about a nuclear exchange with China, the start of world war three. Even a madman would ponder that one.
The question is, is it the purview of a US general to take preemptive action without cause? The answer is no. If he can come up with some evidence that Trump was considering a first strike, he's golden. In that case he is indeed a hero. Without that evidence he's a rouge general and will be treated as such.
Would Trump start WWIII to stay in the white house? I doubt it. Trump wants money and adulation, there are far less risky ways to attain those two things than murdering millions.

I go back to my original point, I think the entire story is hyperbole designed to sell books.

 

[hal2kilo]

My not believing a "bombshell" story without any corroboration is supporting fascists?

Generally speaking, idiots don't rise to the top in military command. The story as presented paints Milley in a very bad light, and making very foolish decisions. That's why I doubt it occurred as written. While the basic events could well have occurred within the confines of normal operations, the story as presented paints Milley as a rouge General. That's just about as bad as a crazy president.

Weird, I completely agree.

 

[fskimospy]

That's an interesting justification that isn't pertinent to the story as written. Was Trump talking about a preemptive strike on China? Did he ask to have the football cracked open? Did he order the joint chiefs to prepare for war? We're talking about a nuclear exchange with China, the start of world war three.

The question is if Milley had cause to believe such an action was within the realm of reasonable possibility. It appears the Chinese certainly thought it was. By the time it happens it's already too late so preparations need to be made if you think there's even a chance.

Even a madman would ponder that one.

I genuinely believe if you gave Trump a button where if he pressed it 100 million people would die but he would be president again he would press it without hesitation. I think the only reason he stopped his coup attempt after 1/6 was that he no longer saw a path forward where it would work and he was afraid that he might land himself in prison.

The question is, is it the purview of a US general to take preemptive action without cause? The answer is no. If he can come up with some evidence that Trump was considering a first strike, he's golden. In that case he is indeed a hero. Without that evidence he's a rouge general and will be treated as such.
Would Trump start WWIII to stay in the white house? I doubt it. Trump wants money and adulation, there are far less risky ways to attain those two things than murdering millions.

I think he did have cause. Trump just attempted a coup!

I go back to my original point, I think the entire story is hyperbole designed to sell books.

There seems to be significant indicators that this was not a rogue action at all, yes.

 

[kage69]

Beau with a couple counterpoints

Nailed it, in particular those making Milley a scapegoat for their cowardice. 'Treason being called out by those who don't know what it means' -- fucking exactly.

Biden should put a medal on Milley. Nice shirt Beau. Just ordered me one of these.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I genuinely believe if you gave Trump a button where if he pressed it 100 million people would die but he would be president again he would press it without hesitation. I think the only reason he stopped his coup attempt after 1/6 was that he no longer saw a path forward where it would work and he was afraid that he might land himself in prison.

Agreed. Many people seem to be lacking in imagination if they cannot imagine Trump initiating a nuclear strike if he felt it'd keep him in power. This is Donald Fucking Trump, the guy that ended up in the whitehouse due to a smile and some handwavey race baiting, refused to do basically any part of his job, and consumed 99% of his knowledge of current events from Fox News. He was just as likely to attempt to nuke China because he thought they were arming peasants to invade the US.

 

[MrSquished]

I genuinely believe if you gave Trump a button where if he pressed it 100 million people would die but he would be president again he would press it without hesitation. I think the only reason he stopped his coup attempt after 1/6 was that he no longer saw a path forward where it would work and he was afraid that he might land himself in prison.

This is percent correct. This is like saying water is wet, it should be clear as day to anyone that is who Trump is and exactly what he would do.

Milley recognized that and did the honorable thing.

The reason Republicans are up in arms over this is because they know they can't admit what an insane piece of shit lunatic they worship and is the de facto leader of their political movement.