Woodward/Costa book: Worried Trump could 'go rogue,' Milley took top-secret action to protect nuclear weapons

[woolfe9998]

Implied yes, but I till think it is useful to make things explicit.

As to your latter point, I disagree. In this case, the presumption is based on an extensive history of posting in such a fashion. This is similar to the presumption that Trump was a risk with regards to the nuclear launch codes near the end of his presidency.

Any time I find myself reaching to set expectations for others, I try to look at myself and see if those expectations are reasonable for me. If I do that with your stated expectations, I don't think it's a standard I meet and not because I'm a partisan hack. It's fair to question motives and ask for logic, but there need not be special circumstances for that to be reasonable.

Yes, we don't agree. Let me provide an example of what I mean. John Bolton is not someone I generally trust, but I do trust observations of his regarding Trump, because he came out against Trump against his own interests. He may have written a book and gotten paid, but he risked being cast out of his political tribe for coming out against Trump. Furthermore, he tried to blame democrats for Trump's bad behavior, meaning he never stopped being a partisan hack even after he criticized Trump. Those facts bolster the credibility of his statements against Trump.

So there's a situation where I would credit certain things a person says but not others. But I have given logical reasons why. If I had just accepted whatever Bolton said about Trump after calling the man a liar and douchebag 50 times, then the logical assumption would be that I simply choose to credit a source whenever the source tells me what I want to hear, but will not credit the source when he's saying something I don't want to hear.

If you're going to selectively credit a source, believing the source sometimes and not others, you best explain why different statements should be evaluated differently, or you deserve the charge of inconsistent logic and hypocrisy.

 

[HomerJS]

The only ones trying to overthrow democracy have been the Democrats. Tried several times to impeach and remove a duly elected President over false and manufactured evidence. Conducted surveillance against their political rivals, and if what is being reported is true, conspired with high military leaders to inform a potential enemy of any military actions. It goes back to Obama, Pelosi, and Schumer organizing traitorous actions over the last 5 years.

Impeachment is a Constitutional process. Killing and kidnapping members of Congress to stop the certification of the vote, isn't.

 

[HomerJS]

I think Milley was tipping over the line if his phone calls to the Chinese were true. Specifically the comment about I'll warn you in advance ...

There is a set procedure for a nuclear launch that would absolutely prevent one person from launching them.

The vice president cannot overrule an election as far as I understand it.

The 12th Amendment states that:

"The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted; the person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President."

I think the last two books he published were just hit pieces and sensationalism.

Did you realize if the Trumpers had managed to stop the certification based on how the House does it's count Trump would have won despite the people's overwhelming desire to kick his fat ass out. But I bet you would have been cool with that.

 

[ivwshane]

Impeachment is a Constitutional process. Killing and kidnapping members of Congress to stop the certification of the vote, isn't.

You'll have to forgive him, he's anti American, anti democracy, and anti reality. He's a nut case who should probably be locked up.

 

[HomerJS]

There is no evidence that President tried to start any wars. In the United States Armed Forces, the chain of command starts with the President and flows down to a few more civilians before reaching the commanders of each branch of the military. The Joint Chiefs of Staff are not in the chain of command for combatant troops so Gen. Milley had no legal authority to demand that orders from the President be approved by him.

The Chinese thought Trump would start a war just to maintain power and the fact we elected stark raving corrupt lunatic in 2016. You want the Chinese taking action based on their assumption?

Read your history, there have been wars started over assumptions.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm not acting like anything. You can be charged with treason without war being declared. In seriousness, Miley wouldn't be charged with treason in this case (from what we know). It's clear you are confused about how the military actually works (you're not alone). A soldier's duty is not to subvert or second guess the intent of the CINC, but enforce his will.


Like I've already said, it's unlikely anyone would charge him with treason unless there's something the news outlets don't know about. Now lets talk about the spirit of an oath. Unlike many things in life, the "spirit" of the oath matters not one bit". Soldiers are also bound by the UCMJ.

This isn't politics, or religion where there's leeway. A military commander or sergeant has it easy compared to politicians. They take the will of the commander and make a plan to fulfill it. There are left and right boundaries, and other considerations, but at the end of the day, you comply with the will of his superior. Failure to do so is not only the mark of a poor leader, but a clear dereliction of duty.

The ONLY time that isn't true is if you can clearly call out that the order is unlawful. Even then you aren't free to do what you want. At that point you abstain from doing that particular thing. Nothing here was unlawful, ergo the reason that people are upset. i personally believe this was exaggerated by Woodward, and blown out of proportion by the media

I think when you enter circumstances like Miley was experiencing the letter of the law goes out the window. For example by your logic if Trump had ordered the launch of a nuclear strike on China then Milley was bound to obey and to not end up in a war that kills hundreds of millions to try and keep Trump in power would be dereliction of duty. After all, it’s a lawful order as the president has sole launch authority.

I think the spirit of the oath matters a lot in a situation like that and the letter of it doesn’t mean much.

 

[fskimospy]

I think Milley was tipping over the line if his phone calls to the Chinese were true. Specifically the comment about I'll warn you in advance ...

There is a set procedure for a nuclear launch that would absolutely prevent one person from launching them.

The procedures for nuclear launch are only to ensure the order is legitimately from the president and the target package correct. In this case and in all cases one person and one person alone decides to launch them, the president.

I think the last two books he published were just hit pieces and sensationalism.

This implies they were inaccurate. How were they inaccurate?

 

[cytg111]

The only ones trying to overthrow democracy have been the Democrats. Tried several times to impeach and remove a duly elected President over false and manufactured evidence. Conducted surveillance against their political rivals, and if what is being reported is true, conspired with high military leaders to inform a potential enemy of any military actions. It goes back to Obama, Pelosi, and Schumer organizing traitorous actions over the last 5 years.

Its the extensive propaganda arm of the right wing that has you convinced of this sad narrative. Its not true. And it is obvious to anyone looking in at from the outside. Fox news is bat shit crazy. Anything further right OAN etc is even worse, they have well and proper fucked your mind.

Sounds like the general might have overstepped? Then again no orders were refused? Who is to say that he wasnt gonna mount a 25th in case the pres did succumb to his frantic nature and order a nuke strike for no good reason at all.

Here is the thing: You and kin wanted that nuke strike to follow through if so given by the orange mad man. You brandon, pose an immediate imminent threat to world peace, planet surface radiation levels. Shit.
The general may have to fall on his sword? Thank god such people still exists in your administration… its my understanding that the orange man did what he could to weed them out.

 

[pcgeek11]

Did you realize if the Trumpers had managed to stop the certification based on how the House does it's count Trump would have won despite the people's overwhelming desire to kick his fat ass out. But I bet you would have been cool with that.

No, actually I wouldn't. I have always stuck by the known fact that Trump lost the election. Pence couldn't have overridden the election regardless. His job was to preside over not rule over the official counting. Period.

 

[NWRMidnight]

I'm not acting like anything. You can be charged with treason without war being declared. In seriousness, Miley wouldn't be charged with treason in this case (from what we know). It's clear you are confused about how the military actually works (you're not alone). A soldier's duty is not to subvert or second guess the intent of the CINC, but enforce his will.


Like I've already said, it's unlikely anyone would charge him with treason unless there's something the news outlets don't know about. Now lets talk about the spirit of an oath. Unlike many things in life, the "spirit" of the oath matters not one bit". Soldiers are also bound by the UCMJ.

This isn't politics, or religion where there's leeway. A military commander or sergeant has it easy compared to politicians. They take the will of the commander and make a plan to fulfill it. There are left and right boundaries, and other considerations, but at the end of the day, you comply with the will of his superior. Failure to do so is not only the mark of a poor leader, but a clear dereliction of duty.

The ONLY time that isn't true is if you can clearly call out that the order is unlawful. Even then you aren't free to do what you want. At that point you abstain from doing that particular thing. Nothing here was unlawful, ergo the reason that people are upset. i personally believe this was exaggerated by Woodward, and blown out of proportion by the media

You completely missed my point, as you are the one who used a front line war time scenario to try and explain your argument.

For the record, I served in the Military for my country, So you can stop with the superiority complex BS. I know first hand that you are 100% wrong, and understand how the military actually works. The reason you don't grasp that you are wrong, is you are looking at it as a grunt solder who gets his orders filtered down thru the chain of command. You are right, a grunt soldier (that's you, and me for all intense and purposes) are never to question the CINC. However, it is your duty to question the actions of the person directly above you in your chain of command IF their actions are out of line, they are behaving in a questionable manner, and/or they are involved in illegal actions. It is also your duty to question every order given to you, so you can determine if that order is lawful, or unlawful. AKA, you are required to think. Not just obey without thought. For Miley, the CINC is the person directly above him in the chain of command who just lead a coup attempt and a insurrection on our congress to change the outcome of the Presidential Elections aka the next CINC, as well as other serious behavioral and threatening issues he witness with Trump. It was Miley's duty to question the intent of the CINC. just as it would be your responsibility and duty to question the intent of the person in your chain of command directly above you if he was involved in a coup and an attack on congress combined with other threatening behavior issues.

 

[pcgeek11]

The procedures for nuclear launch are only to ensure the order is legitimately from the president and the target package correct. In this case and in all cases one person and one person alone decides to launch them, the president.


This implies they were inaccurate. How were they inaccurate?

I feel like this guy. He sums it up pretty well. It isn't so much the facts or misrepresentations of the facts. But the feel you get from the books. It reads like a tabloid you would pick up at the cash register at the grocers. Bob has an agenda IMO.

I Read Every Bob Woodward Book. Here’s How They Stack Up.

Yes, I ranked them—even <i>Fear</i>.

www.politico.com

14. Fear

Donald Trump makes for pretty good copy, even if Woodward hasn’t turned up all that much—or at least all that much beyond the book’s jaw-dropping prologue, in which Gary Cohn lifts a document (an order to withdraw from a trade agreement with South Korea that Trump was about to sign) from the president’s desk. The theme, beyond Trump’s ignorance and dishonesty, is that the deep state is real: An “administrative coup d’état” has been carried out by Trump’s Cabinet and staff to contradict the president’s constitutional authority. For instance, when Trump tells James Mattis, “Let’s go in; let’s kill the fucking lot of them” after a Syrian chemical attack, Mattis hangs up and tells an aide, “We’re not going to do any of that.”

It’s also just super dishy. Trump says H.R. McMaster dresses like a “beer salesman.” Jared Kushner tells Steve Bannon of his father-in-law, “He doesn’t have a lot of cash.” Trump asks Kellyanne Conway, before offering her the job as his campaign manager, “Are you willing to not see your kids for a few months?” We go deep inside the Rex Tillerson “fucking moron” meeting at the Pentagon. An image of Trump’s handwriting—the words “TRADE IS BAD” on a speech he’s revising—is reproduced.

At the same time, you can tell that this one was put together on deadline. Woodward’s books are often most interesting when he inserts himself as a character and reveals his reportorial decision-making and the Post’s newsroom deliberations alongside the White House dope. In Fear, those moments of journalistic drama are replaced with moments in which Woodward reveals observations he made during his appearances on Fox News Sunday.

 

[sportage]

The only ones trying to overthrow democracy have been the Democrats. Tried several times to impeach and remove a duly elected President over false and manufactured evidence. Conducted surveillance against their political rivals, and if what is being reported is true, conspired with high military leaders to inform a potential enemy of any military actions. It goes back to Obama, Pelosi, and Schumer organizing traitorous actions over the last 5 years.

You forget, it was Nancy Pelosi that trained the terrorist to fly the airplanes that crashed into the twin towers on 9/11. Nancy gets around....

BTW, is this my niece???? Sure sounds like my niece.

 

[rommelrommel]

How would a sneak attack on the PRC without a declaration of war by Congress be legal?

It seems to me that all Milley did on that point was reassure China that the USA doesn’t do sneak attacks.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

It's clear you are confused

Looking in the mirror when you say that?

When the 'president' is clearly an insane, deranged, angry little child throwing a tantrum and inciting his minions to attempt to overthrow the Government, thus being essentially a domestic enemy, we'd all better hope someone with guts stands up to him/her.

Milley deserves commendation, not condemnation.

 

[Puffnstuff]

And all of the people who tried to shield him while he did that while holding the highest office should be tarred and feathered and run out of town.

 

[fskimospy]

How would a sneak attack on the PRC without a declaration of war by Congress be legal?

It seems to me that all Milley did on that point was reassure China that the USA doesn’t do sneak attacks.

I mean we haven’t had a declaration of war in 70 years but that hasn’t really slowed us down.

 

[BUTCH1]

The only ones trying to overthrow democracy have been the Democrats. Tried several times to impeach and remove a duly elected President over false and manufactured evidence. Conducted surveillance against their political rivals, and if what is being reported is true, conspired with high military leaders to inform a potential enemy of any military actions. It goes back to Obama, Pelosi, and Schumer organizing traitorous actions over the last 5 years.

An impeachment is a constitutional action that is part of our laws and trump was caught red handed trying to cheat by strong-arming the president of Ukraine by withholding aid approved by congress for his own political gain.

 

[HomerJS]

People here criticizing Millie are virtually silent on the behavior of Pence, looking for a way to subvert the Constitution and his duty.

 

[fskimospy]

People here criticizing Millie are virtually silent on the behavior of Pence, looking for a way to subvert the Constitution and his duty.

I think Milley’s actions are genuinely problematic as if they happened as described it undermines civilian control of the military.

My issue is that criticism ignores the fact that a criminal psychopath just attempted a coup. When you get into coup territory the rules go out the window because coups are inherently extralegal measures.

 

[HomerJS]

My issue is that criticism ignores the fact that a criminal psychopath just attempted a coup.

Exactly the point. Like we've both said Mille needs to answer for his actions and there is a congressional hearing where he will appear (Sept 28). I hope it is public

 

[K1052]

I think Milley’s actions are genuinely problematic as if they happened as described it undermines civilian control of the military.

My issue is that criticism ignores the fact that a criminal psychopath just attempted a coup. When you get into coup territory the rules go out the window because coups are inherently extralegal measures.

Trump forced us down this path were were have to be concerned about what side the military is on because they might have to make a decision about the fate of the government in the face of attempts to seize power by one party by deceit or force. I don't like where we are at but am very clear eyed about who is entirely responsible for putting us here: Trump and his enablers.

 

[sportage]

Well in my experience, in all of our experiences when it comes to Donald Trump the reality is usually much much worse and much more frightening that what we were told or could have imagined. So Im guessing for Milley to have done what Milley has said he done, it probably was not done for some "just in case" senecio but I would bet that when Milley intervened Donald Trump was actually inputting the launch codes into the launch device when Milley stepped in and stopped it. I'm guessing that more than one person was needed to successfully launch the nukes and Donald had already done what was needed of him to do. Then Donald called Milley to finish his part, and it was only then that Milley realized what Donald Trump was up to and what Donald needed for Milley to now do with completing the launch process.

But Milley dare not put THAT into his book, now dare he ????
And considering what we now know of Donald Trump and the history of Donald Trump, no doubt this is exactly what actually took place. So Milley is not just a hero, Milley saved the entire human race..... from the wrath of Donald Trump. Delusional, mean, spiteful, vindictive Donald Trump. That Jim Jones, cult loving, mass suicidal, everyone drink the koolaid Donald Trump.

 

[gothuevos]

Well in my experience, in all of our experiences when it comes to Donald Trump the reality is usually much much worse and much more frightening that what we were told or could have imagined. So Im guessing for Milley to have done what Milley has said he done, it probably was not done for some "just in case" senecio but I would bet that when Milley intervened Donald Trump was actually inputting the launch codes into the launch device when Milley stepped in and stopped it. I'm guessing that more than one person was needed to successfully launch the nukes and Donald had already done what was needed of him to do. Then Donald called Milley to finish his part, and it was only then that Milley realized what Donald Trump was up to and what Donald needed for Milley to now do with completing the launch process.

But Milley dare not put THAT into his book, now dare he ????
And considering what we now know of Donald Trump and the history of Donald Trump, no doubt this is exactly what actually took place. So Milley is not just a hero, Milley saved the entire human race..... from the wrath of Donald Trump. Delusional, mean, spiteful, vindictive Donald Trump. That Jim Jones, cult loving, mass suicidal, everyone drink the koolaid Donald Trump.

Honestly, nothing would surprise me.

Except here's the kicker: he wasn't trying to nuke China. But some major US liberal city instead.

 

[gothuevos]

Oh, and for those of you saying Milley shouldn't have contacted China....thoughts on this?

Let me guess, deep state, etc etc. The kid gloves we had to have on this guy to avoid one disaster after another, the full extent we'll probably never know.

Trump advisers hesitated to give military options and warned adversaries over fears he might start a war

Amid escalating tensions with both North Korea and Iran, President Donald Trump's advisers hesitated to give him military options fearing the President might accidentally take the US to war and deliberately informed their counterparts in both countries that they did not know what the President...

amp.cnn.com

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

the full extent we'll probably never know.

Because Kevvie and The Turtle will protect him.