I can't wait until the new video cards all come out and ALL have sm3.0. Then we can end these disscussions once for all!
Keysplayr
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Excuse me, but is pricing the only argument you have here? I personally think, as do many others, that even at a 100 dollar price premium over the X800XL (and that price difference is shrinking by the way, more like 75 dollars now) , the GT is the better buy. So try not to cling to the price tag argument for too long Ackmed. Nvidia is slowly sawing away at the last leg you stand upon. Soon the GT will be affordable enough for you to own to, do not fret. And lest not forget current AGP mobo owners who would do very well buying a 304.99 AGP GT as opposed to a 329.00 AGP XL
Prices change Acky. The technology that went into these 2 cards, will not.
You could buy a dining room set made out of particle board and mica for cheap. Sure you can sit on it and eat on it, but it won't last as long as if you paid more money for the solid oak dining room set now will it. Face it man, you bought particle board.
Technically speaking, NV do not sell video cards. But I get what you mean.
PR-speaking, IHVs would want to pimp their latest-and-greatest chip especially if it appears to them to be a one-up on their competitors.
The latest-and-greatest DX versions have been abused for a long time (probably started with DX7) by the IHVs. It has become a big marketing tool for IHVs, instead of what MS originally intended it to be (i.e. providing better PC graphics).
SLI... Pffft!
I know you feel the need to ramble on about how good SLI is to make yourself feel good about dropping loads of cash on it, but where do you come up with the stuff about next gen cards being buggy? Are you a fortune teller or something? Because as far as I know SLI has it's own bugs, and what's more, you DONT get 2x the performance for spending 2x the money on 2 cards (even more if you count the price of a SLI mobo).
Also consider this. A 6600gt is a midrange card, and it's faster than the fastest card of the previous gen (9800p). Unless Ati or Nvidia mess up on their next gen cards (and I highly doubt BOTH of them will) a next gen high end card will squash your SLI setup in latest games, plus I'm sure they will have some newer features that you don't, like sm3.1 or something.
Except for the fact that for another year or two after that, 50+% of the gamers out there will still have older cards. Try to remember that not everybody lives on the cutting edge. I see a number of folks in threads like this essentially predicting that any card without SM3.0 will be useless in about six months. This is just not true, because a game that only supports SM3.0 right now (or in the near future) will have a potential market of only a few tens of thousands of customers.
Did you see that last post of the numbers from the HL2 system poll? Something like 30% of the people playing HL2 still have a DX8 card or worse, and only in the last year did DX9 cards start to outnumber them. Only a fraction of the market currently has an SM3.0 card of any form.
And while you may miss out on some eye candy with an SM2.0 card in an SM3.0 game, it's not like you can't play the game (unless the game is SM3.0-only, but as noted above, doing this for the next few years would be suicide). Plus, very few posters seem to be giving any weight to the idea that a single NV4X card may not be able to run future SM3.0 games acceptably with any of the nifty IQ-enhancing features turned on. If you have to run AoE3/STALKER/Unreal3/[insert future games here] with all the bells and whistles disabled on a 6800GT just to get decent performance, then its SM3.0 "advantage" becomes fairly meaningless.
Ultimately, you have to look at all the features of a video card (or any piece of hardware) to make a sound purchasing decision. SM3.0 may get you slight performance boosts in some games, and it can enable some nice graphical enhancements in some games (at the cost of a potentially very large performance drop). I wouldn't pay a big premium for it, but obviously this is a personal decision. Some folks just can't stand not having every feature available.
Keysplayr
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Munky, you just sank your own ship and didn't even realize it. Don't you realize that a X800XL/XT is in a sense, an SLI'd 9800Pro? It has double everything that a 9800pro has. Pipes, Memory, Vertex units. Only difference is, It's all built into one core on one card.
Just thought I'd mention this to give you some food for thought.
Whaddya think about this?
Yes, in a sence being the key words. Because everything is integrated into 1 card, it runs more efficiently than 2 separete 9800's would. Plus, it guaranteed to be always faster than a 9800p, it's not like some games only support half of the pipelines of a x800xt. But anyway, we'll just wait and see how SLI stacks up against next gen cards.
Please, you are really streaching with that analogy. You really think the GT will get good enough frames 2 years down the road with HDR? It didnt even get good enough frames for me, last year. Your assumptions are really idiotic. I have already owned a 6800GT, when it was much more. So why would I have to wait to afford one? Care to show a poll where more people think the GT is worth the extra $100?
$75 difference? Where are the $325 PCI-E 6800GT's? Here is a $250 XL, has been that price for days. Why use newegg (which sucks now) to show prices? You can walk into most stores and buy a XL for $300, you showing it over that is clearly trying to show a higher price.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
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Twist, turn, stretch, manipulate data. Whatever you want to call it brudda.
quote: I have already owned a 6800GT, when it was much more. So why would I have to wait to afford one? /quote
So money doesn't mean as much to you as you would have us believe then. I knew your ego would bite you in your ass in one of these posts. For the sake of argument, lets stick to the 100 dollar difference. Feel free to make a poll. It's your idea.
How did I maniulate data? How was what I said ego filled?
Lets recap what you said, "Soon the GT will be affordable enough for you to own to, do not fret." You implied that I cant afford one, I simply said I already have owned one. So your post was just ignorant.
Keysplayr
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***Careful, do not feed Ackmed's ego. It has an insatiable appetite.***
Yes, I would agree that Newegg isn't as competitive as it once was.
And that's why I would say the 100.00 dollars difference probably still holds water.
You were right Ackmed. about the price.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
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I meant me you bonehead
I was extrapolating. ex-trap-o-lat-ing
It was what I thought, that you thought I was doing to win this nonsensical argument.
Yeah, but how much less useful? How useful is SM3.0/OpenEXR on the 6800GT really going to be a year from now? Look at the performance drops that SC:CT shows with all the fancy eyecandy turned on. Future games with even flashier graphics will probably be worse.
And I was referring more to this comment from Rollo:
Yeah, cause, you know, that X800XL is just going to be absolutely worthless in six months. Nobody would ever want a good bang/buck card with as much raw horsepower as a 6800GT, just because they can't get some soft shadows with it. :disgust:
As of right now, you can get a PCI-E X800XL for $249. The lowest price PCI-E 6800GT I found is sitting at $356. That's a price difference of $107 between two cards with nearly identical performance.
Dont start shooting for crotch shots. I'm not "rambling on" if you'd actually pay attention.
But making valid points. And on it being "loads of cash"- I don't need to justify it to you or myself. SLI is not a lot of money to me. And a NF4 SLI motherboard is incredibly insignificant to me. Most ppl building new rigs are using them.. even those not as wealthy as myself.
On the next gen cards being buggy, I'll make a bet with you.. the NV40 will be LESS buggy by that time than the G70 on launch.
Would you like to bet against me on that?
That was my point.
Both the NV40 and NV40-in-SLI will be so honed by then (and already is), that it won't be comparable. Both of ATI and NV's next gens cards are "new cores", therefore nearly whole new driver code from ground up. At least the important parts.
This isnt 9700 Pro to 9800 Pro again, for either.
So yes, I am a fortune teller.. all I need is a little experience with history to tell you what is more than likely to happen again.
Remember the 9700 Pro launch? The drivers werent incredibly great. But are great now in the "9700 Pro on crack", or the X800 series.
You do in some cases, ie. 3dmark and Unreal Engine 3.0. And it ranges from 40% and up in most games.
Either way, this isnt the argument.. you sound like you are trying to downplay SLI.. and if doing that makes you feel better that you don't have it.. fine by me.
I'm just saying it is indeed what gives Nvidia the undisputed performance crown.
Because you hate its price tag, means nothing to me, or the crown.
I dont know. Thats speculation. I'd be impressed if a stock single G70 Ultra beats 6800Ultra SLI in 3dMark05 for instance. If it is indeed that overpowering, "I'LL TAKE TWO!!!"
But instead of sit around hoping something comes around and "squashes SLI" as you are obviously doing... I'm enjoying the highest resolutions, the most extreme of AA/AF levels and highest FPS possible in my games.. all in the meanwhile.
I can live with that.
Well, I've said this before and now would be a good time to reiterate it.
I'm willing to bet that there is a good 50% or greater chance that the NV40's SM3 performance will be good enough for next gen games built on DX9C.
And if its not, its not like the X800s blow even a bit of dust on the NV40-based cards.. you can always disable SM3/EXR and enjoy the same speed (or better in some games) than the x800 cards enjoy in future games.
At least both options are available.
While there is 0% chance that an X800XL's SM3 performance will be good enough for next gen games.
But there's a 100% chance that the 6800GT costs more now.
IMO, you would be better off pocketing the difference and waiting until we see what the next-gen parts are capable of, and (hopefully) what some of the next-gen games will run like. There's no way to really make an informed decision right now; you basically have to guess at how well today's cards will run tomorrow's games, and how much faster the next-gen cards will be (and how much they will cost). If you're looking at ~$250 versus $350 for an X800XL versus a 6800GT, then that's roughly a 40% price premium. For the possibility of some nicer graphics in some future games. I'm not gonna bite on that, but like I said, this is not necessarily a one-size-fits-all decision; some people will want the features even if they turn out to be useless, or will want the capability to use SLI even if that turns out to be a poor bang/buck upgrade path.
That's actually a sane argument, essentially, you're ponying $100 up on a "50% chance" (not expert odds) that you can derive some sort of benefit from SM3 down the road. Obviously no games in the near future will refuse to run without SM3 (no game developer is so stupid as to limit their market like that, no matter how heavily rendered a game I program is, if I were to release it now, I'd make sure to support down to the lowest realistic level that the market has.) and you're throwing $100 at a severe uncertainty. I wouldn't take that chance.
Originally posted by: Matthias99
But there's a 100% chance that the 6800GT costs more now.
IMO, you would be better off pocketing the difference and waiting until we see what the next-gen parts are capable of, and (hopefully) what some of the next-gen games will run like. There's no way to really make an informed decision right now; you basically have to guess at how well today's cards will run tomorrow's games, and how much faster the next-gen cards will be (and how much they will cost). If you're looking at ~$250 versus $350 for an X800XL versus a 6800GT, then that's roughly a 40% price premium. For the possibility of some nicer graphics in some future games. I'm not gonna bite on that, but like I said, this is not necessarily a one-size-fits-all decision; some people will want the features even if they turn out to be useless, or will want the capability to use SLI even if that turns out to be a poor bang/buck upgrade path.
LOL.. ok that got me chucklin.
Kinda took the duck and cover to the "price stronghold" though.
I'm convinced that is not enough anymore though, if I wanted to buy another 9700 Pro I wouldnt mind buying a R420 based card.
But I'll toss $50-100 extra to get something a bit more advanced.
But (f)actually, thats only true on PCIE still IIRC. On AGP the GTs are popping up same price or cheaper.
The price argument applies to one single ATI card ATM though.. so its not a great stronghold to retreat too (nor a permanent one, like hardware feature superiority). I checked into the Ultra/X850XT PE lately, and the Ultra is going for $450 on PCIE (for a BFG too, no less), while the 850xt PE is about $550.
I should note: if you guys are rackin up the cajones to say the X800XT is "identical" in performance to a 6800GT.. then the 6800Ultra is identical to the X850XT PE.
You cannot have it both ways guys.. the 850 wins, but the x800xt ties.. ya right! At least come off with SOME sense of not appearing like a complete, utter and total ATI apologist!
This whole war over $50 or so makes me wonder if some of you guys are REALLY this frugal in real life.. I seriously doubt it.
Go cheap on something that doesnt matter like clothes.. dont cheap out on your video card/computer setup..
just to place a losing bet on SM2 as being the future of shaders instead of SM3.
LOL, its not like if SM3 in NV40 doesnt work out (which it appears to be 'working out' in todays titles) you lose a finger.
You sound like the type to not walk on a bridge that creaks.
I personally would look at it a little "ballsy-er" way, take the DX9C support.. since it is the MS standard its not going to end up a "flop".. pretty safe on that bridge.
And you can run SM1.1 with the ATI cards if you need to speed things up.. but in SP:CT it does not appear that is necessary.
So far, the odds "NV40 SM3" is going to be "too slow" is currently a ridiculous idea. Its a speed enhancing featureset! The only thing that might make it "too slow" for the future SM3 games is overuse of vertex displacement mapping.. but as stated.. at least you can take the "safe route" that it seems you and Matthias prefer and disable that.
Without running a NV40 in DX9C mode isnt going to make it blown away by any X800.. so I dont know where you lose going with Nvidia hardware that meets current DirectX standards?
You guys are really grasping for straws for ATI. Thats all there is to it. Enjoy your $50 you pocketed, hope you take your wife/girlfriend out to eat once in a while (unless you really are that cheap and not just a fanboy :disgust:..) because a nice meal at a restuaurant and a night out will ring you up a grand total that is about the difference between SM2 hardware and SM3..
but whatever, I'm not going to argue with you select few that seem just dead-set on handing ATI 'teh win' for selling a card for $50-100 less.
I can't relate, I use SLI.
Originally posted by: housecat
Dont start shooting for crotch shots. I'm not "rambling on" if you'd actually pay attention.
But making valid points. And on it being "loads of cash"- I don't need to justify it to you or myself. SLI is not a lot of money to me. And a NF4 SLI motherboard is incredibly insignificant to me. Most ppl building new rigs are using them.. even those not as wealthy as myself.
On the next gen cards being buggy, I'll make a bet with you.. the NV40 will be LESS buggy by that time than the G70 on launch.
Would you like to bet against me on that?
That was my point.
Both the NV40 and NV40-in-SLI will be so honed by then (and already is), that it won't be comparable. Both of ATI and NV's next gens cards are "new cores", therefore nearly whole new driver code from ground up. At least the important parts.
This isnt 9700 Pro to 9800 Pro again, for either.
So yes, I am a fortune teller.. all I need is a little experience with history to tell you what is more than likely to happen again.
Remember the 9700 Pro launch? The drivers werent incredibly great. But are great now in the "9700 Pro on crack", or the X800 series.
You do in some cases, ie. 3dmark and Unreal Engine 3.0. And it ranges from 40% and up in most games.
Either way, this isnt the argument.. you sound like you are trying to downplay SLI.. and if doing that makes you feel better that you don't have it.. fine by me.
I'm just saying it is indeed what gives Nvidia the undisputed performance crown.
Because you hate its price tag, means nothing to me, or the crown.
I dont know. Thats speculation. I'd be impressed if a stock single G70 Ultra beats 6800Ultra SLI in 3dMark05 for instance. If it is indeed that overpowering, "I'LL TAKE TWO!!!"
But instead of sit around hoping something comes around and "squashes SLI" as you are obviously doing... I'm enjoying the highest resolutions, the most extreme of AA/AF levels and highest FPS possible in my games.. all in the meanwhile.
I can live with that.
Well, that's the difference between you and me - I would not spend more than $300 on a gfx card, even though I can if I wanted to. The way I see SLI is:
6600gt SLI - not any better than a single 6800gt
6800gt/u SLI - the best and most expensive video card setup today, but a single 6800gt will handle current games no problem, and any comparison between SLI and next gen cards is pure speculation. My feeling is that a single next gen high end card will be faster, run cooler, and take up less space than the SLI setup.
You can have your SLI if you want to have the fastest fps for now, however I don't need to play at 120 fps, I can just play at like 70-80, for half the price, and I can't tell the difference by looking at it. Having "the crown" means nothing to me.
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