Why go with SM3.0 today?

[otispunkmeyer]

this thread seems to be past super nova .... now its just sucking all AT members in to the fire lol.

1) you cant go wrong with either company
2) your probably gonna have to upgrade regardless
3)????????????!?!?!?!?!?!????!???!?
4) video card and AIB companies profit

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: munky
Well, that's the difference between you and me - I would not spend more than $300 on a gfx card, even though I can if I wanted to. The way I see SLI is:

6800gt/u SLI - the best and most expensive video card setup today, but a single 6800gt will handle current games no problem, and any comparison between SLI and next gen cards is pure speculation. My feeling is that a single next gen high end card will be faster, run cooler, and take up less space than the SLI setup.
You can have your SLI if you want to have the fastest fps for now, however I don't need to play at 120 fps, I can just play at like 70-80, for half the price, and I can't tell the difference by looking at it. Having "the crown" means nothing to me.

The crown means nothing to me either.. its Nvidia's title really. The King of 3D
Just a FYI, and not trying to be rude or snotty about this but, from experience running in single 6800GT mode and then turning on SLI in games there is no comparison.
The minimum framerate (what matters IMO) is so much higher that its exponentially more playable.

After experiencing what is essentially single 6800GT/Ultra/X850XT PE speed, then going to SLI.. even in current games without using AA/AF its much more fluid and enjoyable by far.

Most people who dont have SLI will definitely not experience this until a single card matches NV40 SLI.. but trust me, even in todays games.. you will be like "how did I live with a single 6800GT/X800XL so long???!! This is awesome!"

Seriously. I dont think I could stand not having dual 6800s.. but if I never had them.. I'd have lower standards and wouldnt miss what I had never seen.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: doublejbass
That's actually a sane argument, essentially, you're ponying $100 up on a "50% chance" (not expert odds) that you can derive some sort of benefit from SM3 down the road. Obviously no games in the near future will refuse to run without SM3 (no game developer is so stupid as to limit their market like that, no matter how heavily rendered a game I program is, if I were to release it now, I'd make sure to support down to the lowest realistic level that the market has.) and you're throwing $100 at a severe uncertainty. I wouldn't take that chance.

It's kinda like buying health insurance isn't it? You run the risk of paying every week of your life into it without ever knowing if you will ever get sick or need serious medical attention. But you still pay don't you..

Uh, yeah, but I don't die or have to pay potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars if I buy an X800XL and decide I want to upgrade when the next-gen cards are available. It's not really comparable. :disgust:

Look. Basically, if you think the potential for being more future-proof is worth it, and you're in the market for a $200-400 PCIe graphics card, pay the premium and buy the NVIDIA card. If $100 is chump change to you, buy it (of course, if $100 is chump change to you, you probably have SLI already). If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it. Going much beyond that is just speculation, and there's no way for anyone to be "right".

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: doublejbass
That's actually a sane argument, essentially, you're ponying $100 up on a "50% chance" (not expert odds) that you can derive some sort of benefit from SM3 down the road. Obviously no games in the near future will refuse to run without SM3 (no game developer is so stupid as to limit their market like that, no matter how heavily rendered a game I program is, if I were to release it now, I'd make sure to support down to the lowest realistic level that the market has.) and you're throwing $100 at a severe uncertainty. I wouldn't take that chance.

It's kinda like buying health insurance isn't it? You run the risk of paying every week of your life into it without ever knowing if you will ever get sick or need serious medical attention. But you still pay don't you..

Uh, yeah, but I don't die or have to pay potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars if I buy an X800XL and decide I want to upgrade when the next-gen cards are available. It's not really comparable. :disgust:

Look. Basically, if you think the potential for being more future-proof is worth it, and you're in the market for a $200-400 PCIe graphics card, pay the premium and buy the NVIDIA card. If $100 is chump change to you, buy it (of course, if $100 is chump change to you, you probably have SLI already). If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it. Going much beyond that is just speculation, and there's no way for anyone to be "right".

Yeah, but you're saying all this stuff on the premise that nobody has ANY idea what lies ahead. Sure, nobody truly knows for certain, but we can put together a pretty good idea what to expect from what we see now. At least I won't deny what I think I see will happen. Otherwise I'd be lying to myself.

And by the way, I think my analogy was comparable even if you did not.

 

[Keysplayr]

Anyway. I felt that SM3.0 is going somewhere, so I bought a card that supports it. Is there something bad about that? Not really. And believe me guys, this cost advantage thing you keep swearing by will not last. Not that it means much to me. It does to a great many that do not wish to sacrifice a little, for a lot. (The term "a lot" is relative to the person(s) making this decision) So, they buy the cheaper and rightfully so XL. If Nvidia die shrunk the 6800GT, I'm sure they could offer it for much cheaper as well. That doesn't look as though it's going to happen however.

 

[Snakexor]

Originally posted by: Housecat
This whole war over $50 or so makes me wonder if some of you guys are REALLY this frugal in real life.. I seriously doubt it.
Go cheap on something that doesnt matter like clothes.. dont cheap out on your video card/computer setup..
just to place a losing bet on SM2 as being the future of shaders instead of SM3.

HAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH, that is hilarious, i really pity you...you must also think that spending an extra 40 bucks a weekend on your gf isnt worth it since you cant buy the latest cpu for you Ub3R 1337 Pwn4g3 |2!6!!!!111111oneoneoneleven

get a life....


imho, from the ss ive looked at, sm 3 isnt worth it and im not by anymeans affliated w/ either side, ive owned a 9800pro and a 6800gt, both of which i have enjoyed and appreciated...but the slow down wont be worth it until next gen....

 

[Keysplayr]

Tired of this thread. See you on the battlefield.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Anyway. I felt that SM3.0 is going somewhere, so I bought a card that supports it. Is there something bad about that? Not really.

No, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't know how many times or ways I can say that the value of these features (or any features, for that matter) is something you have to decide on your own.

And believe me guys, this cost advantage thing you keep swearing by will not last.

Ultimately, in the long term the prices of all this hardware will drop so much that it's basically irrelevant. However, in the short term (say, the next 3-6 months), I don't see the pricing disparity changing drastically (since the 6800GT hasn't moved a whole lot in price in the last few months, while the X800XL has dropped quite a bit). If you're looking to buy something at Christmas, then ignore all of this and just look at pricing and availability closer to when you want to buy.

Not that it means much to me. It does to a great many that do not wish to sacrifice a little, for a lot. (The term "a lot" is relative to the person(s) making this decision)

Note the last sentence you had to stick in there. To me, $100 is not a trivial amount of money (it's not breaking the bank by any means, but it's not a small enough cost to ignore), nor are the extra features of the GF6 cards all that exciting or worth paying extra for right now. There's nothing wrong with having a different opinion on either or both of these points; just realize that not everyone is going to see eye-to-eye on the value of money and features.

Basically, we have to agree to disagree.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Snakexor

Originally posted by: Matthias99
This whole war over $50 or so makes me wonder if some of you guys are REALLY this frugal in real life.. I seriously doubt it.
Go cheap on something that doesnt matter like clothes.. dont cheap out on your video card/computer setup..
just to place a losing bet on SM2 as being the future of shaders instead of SM3.

HAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH, that is hilarious, i really pity you...you must also think that spending an extra 40 bucks a weekend on your gf isnt worth it since you cant buy the latest cpu for you Ub3R 1337 Pwn4g3 |2!6!!!!111111oneoneoneleven

get a life....

imho, from the ss ive looked at, sm 3 isnt worth it and im not by anymeans affliated w/ either side, ive owned a 9800pro and a 6800gt, both of which i have enjoyed and appreciated...but the slow down wont be worth it until next gen....

Just to note: I didn't write that; you somehow quoted Housecat and stuck my name on it.

 

[hans030390]

From what i have HEARD, next gen games actually wont use anything but SM3 or higher. That would make sense, because as soon as the developers could, they got a 6800ultra just for SM3.0. You really can't get UE3 graphics without Sm3, but it MIGHT run on SM2.0, but wouldn't look nearly as pretty.

and about next gen games killing your performance, remember that ALL Splinter cell games kill you computer (i dont think it's likely to pass 80FPS on even the first game). SM3.0 doesnt kill your performance, HDR and the like kill your performance, BUT if properly coded/programmed, it shouldn't tax you like SC:CT does. In fact, if a next gen game is built from the ground up with SM3.0 and is optimized well, it should do fine on even a 6600gt (or so says the UE3 developers...and i'd rather trust them than someone on here who is guessing).

I don't care, if my computer still doesnt run it, ill just pick up a PS3.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Anyway. I felt that SM3.0 is going somewhere, so I bought a card that supports it. Is there something bad about that? Not really. And believe me guys, this cost advantage thing you keep swearing by will not last. Not that it means much to me. It does to a great many that do not wish to sacrifice a little, for a lot. (The term "a lot" is relative to the person(s) making this decision) So, they buy the cheaper and rightfully so XL. If Nvidia die shrunk the 6800GT, I'm sure they could offer it for much cheaper as well. That doesn't look as though it's going to happen however.

How can you say "a little" is not relative, but say that, "a lot" is? $100 is a lot, especially when its about 40% of the total cost of the vido card. Less than 1% of games currently use SM3.0, and we have no idea (obviously a lot more) how many more in the future will.

Originally posted by: hans030390
From what i have HEARD, next gen games actually wont use anything but SM3 or higher. That would make sense, because as soon as the developers could, they got a 6800ultra just for SM3.0. You really can't get UE3 graphics without Sm3, but it MIGHT run on SM2.0, but wouldn't look nearly as pretty.

and about next gen games killing your performance, remember that ALL Splinter cell games kill you computer (i dont think it's likely to pass 80FPS on even the first game). SM3.0 doesnt kill your performance, HDR and the like kill your performance, BUT if properly coded/programmed, it shouldn't tax you like SC:CT does. In fact, if a next gen game is built from the ground up with SM3.0 and is optimized well, it should do fine on even a 6600gt (or so says the UE3 developers...and i'd rather trust them than someone on here who is guessing).

I don't care, if my computer still doesnt run it, ill just pick up a PS3.

And where is the factual info from? Do you really think devs and publishers will be so idiotic, that they will only make games for the smallest segment of the video card users? No. When has any game only supported the latest card? Never.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: Snakexor

Originally posted by: Housecat
This whole war over $50 or so makes me wonder if some of you guys are REALLY this frugal in real life.. I seriously doubt it.
Go cheap on something that doesnt matter like clothes.. dont cheap out on your video card/computer setup..
just to place a losing bet on SM2 as being the future of shaders instead of SM3.

HAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH, that is hilarious, i really pity you...you must also think that spending an extra 40 bucks a weekend on your gf isnt worth it since you cant buy the latest cpu for you Ub3R 1337 Pwn4g3 |2!6!!!!111111oneoneoneleven

get a life....


imho, from the ss ive looked at, sm 3 isnt worth it and im not by anymeans affliated w/ either side, ive owned a 9800pro and a 6800gt, both of which i have enjoyed and appreciated...but the slow down wont be worth it until next gen....

:disgust:
First, you are retarded and likely in high school.
Second, you didnt even read my whole post.. either that or you read it so fast that you didnt even ponder it long enough to respond like you read it at all.

You missed this later in that post:

Enjoy your $50 you pocketed, hope you take your wife/girlfriend out to eat once in a while (unless you really are that cheap and not just a fanboy ..) because a nice meal at a restuaurant and a night out will ring you up a grand total that is about the difference between SM2 hardware and SM3..

So I'm saying it is worth it to spend it on your g/f. I'm saying how INSIGNIFICANT that amount of cash is.

But you didnt read that post, didnt get it, and won't get it because you choose to remain ignorant.

This wasnt even worth responding to, but I can't stab people in the heart yet through the screen.

 

[Drayvn]

By the way. Since this has turned into an X800XL v 6800GT match about prices. I thought i would say something, both are great cards

But as said your paying roughly $100 more for SM3. But also when you turn HDR on which always seems to be connected to SM3. You lose any Anti-aliasing right?

So youve paid $100 more for HDR and SM3 but lost Anti Aliasing at the same time... Isnt that 2 steps forward, 1 step back, do in reality youve paid not to have Anti Aliasing right?

 

[HeaterCore]

This has probably has come up before, but I'm too damned lazy to read through all 14 pages of this thread.

-hc-

 

[imported_X]

Because the currently available mid-to-highend SM3.0 cards can run "SM2.0 games" competitively with other SM2.0-only offerings. IOW, in "SM2.0 apps/games", what has a SM3.0 card got to lose?

It is amazing to me that, despite all the discussion in this thread, some people continue to miss the main point of my original post. In answer to your question, the downside of going with a SM3.0 card is the price tag difference between an X800XL and 6800GT on PCI-E.

I simply asked why people were willing to pay that premium. I understand that you could see some improvements due to more efficient rendering relative to SM2.0, but is it really worth an extra $100?

 

[doublejbass]

Originally excreted by: housecat
This whole war over $50 or so makes me wonder if some of you guys are REALLY this frugal in real life.. I seriously doubt it.
Go cheap on something that doesnt matter like clothes.. dont cheap out on your video card/computer setup..
just to place a losing bet on SM2 as being the future of shaders instead of SM3.

So I'm saying it is worth it to spend it on your g/f. I'm saying how INSIGNIFICANT that amount of cash is.

Now you're making value judgements? Ugh. Using this golden display of idiocy as a sample, the P&N forum must be the most disgusting hellhole on the net. Fine, so you justified paying $350 for a GT. Now how about $450 for an Ultra? It's only another $100! Now you're only $450 away from SLI! That's an insignificant amount of money, you can drop that in Vegas with your girlfriend! Or are you so cheap that you don't go to Vegas? Save money other places, and don't be frugal when it comes to compulsive gambling.

What kind of car do you drive? I make enough money that I could drive a 350Z or WRX STi if I wanted to. However, I don't find the premium in price to be worth it over the SVT Focus that I drive now, which I enjoy thoroughly, and though the $30k car may have features that my current car does not have, I don't find the cost increase to be worth it. Either you take prices into account or you don't. Saving $50 on a video card is significant to me (or in my case, at the time, it was $221 vs. >$400 for PCI-E) because then I can do something else with that money.

Cheap? No, hardly. Cost-conscious? Yeah, I call that being an intelligent adult. Obviously one part of that equation doesn't jive with you.

EDIT: As someone who works in the fashion industry, I am also amused by your assumption about going cheap on clothes. I wouldn't have the money that I do if it didn't matter, and if people didn't come in willing and able to drop $300 in an afternoon.

 

[imported_Noob]

Originally posted by: munky
Look at it this way - the r520 will shine the most in situations where current cards are reaching their limits, which is high res + AA/AF. If you look at history, the 9700p had the biggest lead over the gf4 in that area. At 640 * 480, it wasn't much faster, but at high settings it was like 2x faster. I expect te same from the r520, but then again I'm no fortune teller either, and it depends if were talking about 24 or 32 pipes.

The R520 is supposed to be 24 pipes acting as 32. Yah, beats me to. The only thing I can think of is that each pipeline is 33% faster to make a virtual 32? LOL I have no clue.

 

[hans030390]

Originally posted by: HeaterCore
This has probably has come up before, but I'm too damned lazy to read through all 14 pages of this thread.

-hc-

you sir are an idiot and know NOTHING about shader model 3.0. There are many many more things you can do with SM3.0 and not 2.0

1. Displacement mapping
2. 60,000+ shader instructions (as opposed to 2.0's 500 something)
3. better way to render light
4. Less taxing than 2.0 (as in, if 3.0 does the exact same thing as 2.0, it runs faster)

I don't have the list...that's off the top of my head...wasn't normal and bump mapping kinda the big thing with shaders? Yeah, displacement mapping is going to be like that. It PYSICALLY changes the geometry of whatever it is applied to (either that or it is still 2d, but renders in full 3d, giving it shadows and the like). It is easier and less harsh on the computer to use D-mapping, and it will be used quite a bit in next gen games...have you seen the UE3 screens? That mass amount of detail uses Displacement mapping.

I'm tired of talking to idiots like you. Go read up about shader model 3.0 before you even attempt to reply to this topic. You know nothing about it.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: hans030390

Originally posted by: HeaterCore
This has probably has come up before, but I'm too damned lazy to read through all 14 pages of this thread.

-hc-

you sir are an idiot and know NOTHING about shader model 3.0. There are many many more things you can do with SM3.0 and not 2.0

1. Displacement mapping
2. 60,000+ shader instructions (as opposed to 2.0's 500 something)
3. better way to render light
4. Less taxing than 2.0 (as in, if 3.0 does the exact same thing as 2.0, it runs faster)

I don't have the list...that's off the top of my head...wasn't normal and bump mapping kinda the big thing with shaders? Yeah, displacement mapping is going to be like that. It PYSICALLY changes the geometry of whatever it is applied to (either that or it is still 2d, but renders in full 3d, giving it shadows and the like). It is easier and less harsh on the computer to use D-mapping, and it will be used quite a bit in next gen games...have you seen the UE3 screens? That mass amount of detail uses Displacement mapping.

I'm tired of talking to idiots like you. Go read up about shader model 3.0 before you even attempt to reply to this topic. You know nothing about it.

Uh, apparently you need a firmware update on your sarcasm detector. Because that went right over your head.

And you forgot to mention 2.0b in your little rant.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: hans030390

Originally posted by: HeaterCore
This has probably has come up before, but I'm too damned lazy to read through all 14 pages of this thread.

-hc-

you sir are an idiot and know NOTHING about shader model 3.0. There are many many more things you can do with SM3.0 and not 2.0

1. Displacement mapping
2. 60,000+ shader instructions (as opposed to 2.0's 500 something)
3. better way to render light
4. Less taxing than 2.0 (as in, if 3.0 does the exact same thing as 2.0, it runs faster)

I don't have the list...that's off the top of my head...wasn't normal and bump mapping kinda the big thing with shaders? Yeah, displacement mapping is going to be like that. It PYSICALLY changes the geometry of whatever it is applied to (either that or it is still 2d, but renders in full 3d, giving it shadows and the like). It is easier and less harsh on the computer to use D-mapping, and it will be used quite a bit in next gen games...have you seen the UE3 screens? That mass amount of detail uses Displacement mapping.

I'm tired of talking to idiots like you. Go read up about shader model 3.0 before you even attempt to reply to this topic. You know nothing about it.

Hans, ignorance is bliss my friend.. and many are euphoric with it.
What ATI doesnt have can't hurt me if I plug my ears and sing over it!! Talking about saving enough money that amounts to a dinner and a movie also helps. But, I still call myself a 3D enthusiast.. that beef lo mein was REALLY worth it that one day!

PS hans.. did you check his link?
Its almost as good as mine.

 

[Munky]

This has probably has come up before, but I'm too damned lazy to read through all 14 pages of this thread.

Yah, I though everyone would get the sarcasm there, it's pretty funny too.

 

[HeaterCore]

Originally posted by: hans030390

Originally posted by: HeaterCore
This has probably has come up before, but I'm too damned lazy to read through all 14 pages of this thread.

-hc-

you sir are an idiot and know NOTHING about shader model 3.0. There are many many more things you can do with SM3.0 and not 2.0

1. Displacement mapping
2. 60,000+ shader instructions (as opposed to 2.0's 500 something)
3. better way to render light
4. Less taxing than 2.0 (as in, if 3.0 does the exact same thing as 2.0, it runs faster)

I don't have the list...that's off the top of my head...wasn't normal and bump mapping kinda the big thing with shaders? Yeah, displacement mapping is going to be like that. It PYSICALLY changes the geometry of whatever it is applied to (either that or it is still 2d, but renders in full 3d, giving it shadows and the like). It is easier and less harsh on the computer to use D-mapping, and it will be used quite a bit in next gen games...have you seen the UE3 screens? That mass amount of detail uses Displacement mapping.

I'm tired of talking to idiots like you. Go read up about shader model 3.0 before you even attempt to reply to this topic. You know nothing about it.

That's the beauty of the internet -- no matter what you say, some jackass is somehow going to take it the wrong way.

Hans...take a good, long look at that image. Ruminate on it for awhile. Have a glass of wine, perhaps two. Maybe after a few hours of intense meditation you'll get it.

-hc-

 

[hans030390]

count on me to be slow.....

sorry bout that...but i still say that to those who REALLY think that...

and again...really sorry........i am a total idiot....I am not known for being one of quick thinking...I hope you'll forgive me

and i have trouble understanding sarcasm...even when i am really talking/looking at that person...so you can imagine me online...

I feel retarded...but i like that picture now

 

[ronnn]

u guys still discussing your vid card investment? Next time buy gold. Has a much better chance of retaining any value after 5 years.

 

[hans030390]

hahahaha lol....or you could buy a ps3/xbrick2...that should solve your hardware troubles.