Why go with SM3.0 today?

[Drayvn]

Again i ask, what about paying for a feature that cannot be used one another feature on the card is being used at the time. Meaning HDR on, Anti Aliasing off.

Doesnt that mean youve paid a premium price on a new feature but thrown away a fundamental and basic feature that all cards have?

Like you buy a house with electrically heated floors. But it can only be switched on when all the lights are off.

 

[hans030390]

yeah....too bad that AA isn't needed...i never play with it...and it isn't as extreme as that house thing...

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: hans030390
From what i have HEARD, next gen games actually wont use anything but SM3 or higher.

That kind of financial suicide is something that no developer is going to commit. I very strongly disagree that this is even a remote possibility. Hell, todays games are still supporting GF256 chipsets.

 

[HeaterCore]

Originally posted by: hans030390
count on me to be slow.....

sorry bout that...but i still say that to those who REALLY think that...

and again...really sorry........i am a total idiot....I am not known for being one of quick thinking...I hope you'll forgive me

and i have trouble understanding sarcasm...even when i am really talking/looking at that person...so you can imagine me online...

I feel retarded...but i like that picture now

Heh, no worries man. I've been in "combative mode" on these forums myself.

-hc-

 

[Drayvn]

Well i was using it as an analogy, not meaning it in an extreme case, just in case no one understood what i said before, it was there to clear up any discrepencies.

So AA isnt needed, but arent you paying for it? And with that extra $100 or so you kinda not using it and replacing it with something else. Meaning your going one step forward then taking a step back.

Why isnt AA needed? There are still jaggies, less visible maybe but its still there, so your effectively cutting of a fundamental piece of hardware to replace it for another, meaning your not paying for something extra as all HDR is doing is replacing something that was already there?

Why would you pay and extra $100 for HDR and no Anti Aliasing? While other ppl are paying $100 less for Anti Aliasing without HDR...

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: hans030390
yeah....too bad that AA isn't needed...i never play with it...

You never play with AA on? Did you own a high end GPU before your GF6 card? If so, why? Higher res. with AA and AF on has been the biggest reason for faster GPUs and more video memory for years. And SM3.0 does not negate that either. It was supposed to complement it.

 

[hans030390]

look at my rig...i might toy around with it when i upgrade the ram

 

[imported_Noob]

Is displacement mapping going to replace normal mapping? And what IQ enhancement features does SM 3.0 have that SM 2.0b doesn't (besides HQ Soft Shadows)?

 

[mooncancook]

Seems like a lot of ppl thinks their 6800s are more future-proof than X8xx. I think X8xx will last as long as the 6800s. By the time I need to upgrade my X800XL to the next gen card, I'll be playing games on something like the Dell 24" LCD at 19x12 resolution, which I believe it will be at least 2x-3x faster than any of the current gen at that resolution with details cranked up. In the future 6800s will suck as much as X8xx's when 24" LCD becomes affordable.

I am no fan of ATI or nVidia. The product I like from nVidia is 6600GT. Unfortunately it didn't work for me coz I need a faster card for 16x10 gaming on 2005FPW. X800XL fits the bill thankfully. I don't like other cards in ATI family coz they are as over-priced as all the 6800s. I think to most people price and performance are really important.

Lastly, I don't think SLI will take off. Space, power, heat, noise, and cost are its biggest problems. If it didn't work be4 (Voodoo2), it's likely not going to work now. I'd rather have a single card with multi/multi-core GPU than SLI with 2 cards.

edit: i think i'm getting off topic like most ppl here. back to the point, i think it's not that important to have SM3 today. I don't think you can use future-proof as the argument for picking 6800 over X800s. I think pricing is more important as the two cards are almost neck to neck. Nothing today is future-proof for the upcoming next gen cards unless we see FX deja vu. let's hope not.

 

[imported_humey]

Well SLI has took of and its here to stay on both intel and amd NF4's.

You will see dual core GPU's more in 2006 and then you can stick 2x dual core GPUs in SLI.

I think cores are getting to fast, needing more volts and more heat probs, so they may put 2 smaller cores on each GFX card, ie 2x 400mhz cores with volts it needs and heat it outputs would be easier to cool than 1 core at 800mhz and the volts needed to power it.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: mooncancook
Lastly, I don't think SLI will take off. Space, power, heat, noise, and cost are its biggest problems. If it didn't work be4 (Voodoo2), it's likely not going to work now. I'd rather have a single card with multi/multi-core GPU than SLI with 2 cards.

That puts you in disagreement with both ATI and Nvidia then.
Looks like its XGI for you!

 

[Snakexor]

Originally posted by: Housecat
:disgust:
First, you are retarded and likely in high school.
Second, you didnt even read my whole post.. either that or you read it so fast that you didnt even ponder it long enough to respond like you read it at all.

i am in highschool, and no i am not retarted...im not gonna argue with you on the internet, i could really careless what people think of me on here, i dont have to keep saying how rich i am and what video cards i bought for people to respect my opinion....and just because you "have money" or have two 6800gts doesnt make you smarter than the rest of us....i hope all that computer hardware gives you a good boost of self esteem that you lack from a decent social life...

 

[mooncancook]

Originally posted by: housecat

Originally posted by: mooncancook
Lastly, I don't think SLI will take off. Space, power, heat, noise, and cost are its biggest problems. If it didn't work be4 (Voodoo2), it's likely not going to work now. I'd rather have a single card with multi/multi-core GPU than SLI with 2 cards.

That puts you in disagreement with both ATI and Nvidia then.
Looks like its XGI for you!

well you know if nVidia does it, ATI will do it just to catch the hype and avoid looking bad. Cost is its downfall. Seriously if you have a 6800U now, it'll play any games extremely well, why do you need SLI? By the time the price of 6800U drops low enough to be affordable for SLI, it's probably a better option to sell the old one and get a high end next gen card. It neither make sense to buy 2 6600GT for SLI because you can get a 6800GT and save a slot and troubles. Let's not forget SLI mobos cost more too. SLI also takes 4 slots and makes "cool and quiet" harder and more costly to achieve. I understand that some ppl have the budget and patience for SLI, but i don't think there are enough to make a difference.

 

[Avalon]

Everyone should just buy an XGI so we can end this quibbling. They are the future. F33r.

Newegg carries them!

The first step to XGI world domination has begun!

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: mooncancook

Originally posted by: housecat

Originally posted by: mooncancook
Lastly, I don't think SLI will take off. Space, power, heat, noise, and cost are its biggest problems. If it didn't work be4 (Voodoo2), it's likely not going to work now. I'd rather have a single card with multi/multi-core GPU than SLI with 2 cards.

That puts you in disagreement with both ATI and Nvidia then.
Looks like its XGI for you!

well you know if nVidia does it, ATI will do it just to catch the hype and avoid looking bad. Cost is its downfall. Seriously if you have a 6800U now, it'll play any games extremely well, why do you need SLI? By the time the price of 6800U drops low enough to be affordable for SLI, it's probably a better option to sell the old one and get a high end next gen card. It neither make sense to buy 2 6600GT for SLI because you can get a 6800GT and save a slot and troubles. Let's not forget SLI mobos cost more too. SLI also takes 4 slots and makes "cool and quiet" harder and more costly to achieve. I understand that some ppl have the budget and patience for SLI, but i don't think there are enough to make a difference.

http://www.umass.edu/aesop/foxgrapes/palica/foxgrapes_trad.html

Wait Mr. Fox- what about the 6800GTs you can buy at newegg for $718 shipped? Pretty cheap for that much performance compared to what some people paid for X850XTPEs recently?

 

[Pete]

Can't ... help it. Fingers ... out of my ... control.

Originally posted by: hans030390
From what i have HEARD, next gen games actually wont use anything but SM3 or higher.

Doom 3 was based around the capabilities of a GeForce. The GF came out early 2000. D3 came out late 2004. It offers similar IQ on a GF as on a GF6, albeit at vastly different performance levels.

Don't expect Epic to dump all pre-SM3 hardware into the ocean. They ran with basically DX7 from Unreal to UT2k4, and I don't think they're inclined (read: filthy rich enough) to start making boutique games enjoyable to only a select few.

you sir are an idiot and know NOTHING about shader model 3.0. There are many many more things you can do with SM3.0 and not 2.0

Whee!:

The move from DirectX8 to DirectX9 was a huge change, introducing high-precision floating-point computations and storage formats, complex pixel and vertex shader programs, and multiple render targets. Within DX9, the change from SM2 to SM3 is completely incremental, with instruction counts being extended and other straightforward improvements. With the Unreal Engine, moving from DX8 to DX9 required a whole new engine architecture; "moving" from SM2 to SM3 was just a matter of upping some stupid hardcoded limits.

1. Displacement mapping

I've been looking forward to this since about Parhelia. IIRC, Perimeter is the only game to use it. The more deformable geometry the merrier, but it doesn't seem a simple add-in.

2. 60,000+ shader instructions (as opposed to 2.0's 500 something)

I'm sure game devs are getting right on shaders with 60k instructions.

3. better way to render light

Yes, FP blending is apparently essentially required for reasonable framerates with transparencies and HDR. I believe it's above and beyond SM3, though.

4. Less taxing than 2.0 (as in, if 3.0 does the exact same thing as 2.0, it runs faster)

I don't doubt this, but it hasn't been demonstrated in many games yet, and that's the bottom line for all of us.

Yeah, displacement mapping is going to be like that. It PYSICALLY changes the geometry of whatever it is applied to (either that or it is still 2d, but renders in full 3d, giving it shadows and the like). It is easier and less harsh on the computer to use D-mapping

I'm sure all the extra shadowing and virtual displacement mapping applied to that new geometry will be real easy on the GPU, too.

Yeah, I know much of my reply is mere superficial retort, but when people bust out the "idiot" stick, I'm probably not in danger of dragging this thread down any further.

Anyway, if you can get a card with SM3 for a bit more than a similar-performing one with just SM2, I say go for it. Otherwise, I say save up. Remember the rule of thumb, buy a card for a future game when that game comes out? I relearned my lesson with the 9700P.

 

[Gstanfor]

Speaking of diplacement mapping, why not try out a vertex displacement mapping demo?

Yes, it's another demo from Abba Zabba. SM3.0 in action yet again.

This demo written in OpenGL uses NV_vertex_program3 option on NVIDIA newest cards to perturb a grid mesh and simulate a water effect.

For those who are not too familiar with the OpenGL nomenclature, NV_vertex_program3 is what the DX folks refer to as Vertex Shaders 3.0.

If this demo fails to detect VS3.0 hardware support, it will still run but will only give the illusion of displacement (a 2D water effect instead of a full 3D), so ATi users might still enjoy this one.

There is no support for the FX cards (and I don't think I'll be inclined to add few lines necessary to detect and support float Texture Rectangles )

PS: Using the new FBO extension I can achieve about 3 folds the frame rate over the aging and slow pixel buffers.

PS2: The first one to mention Sobel filter will have a free a$$ beating

 

[BFG10K]

too bad that AA isn't needed..

Too bad you're wrong.

 

[Gstanfor]

Anti-Aliasing and Anisotropic filtering are strictly optional features. They are not required in order for 3D applications to run. They serve only to enhance IQ.

This is part of the reason why developers are currently enabling SM3.0 in games despite there being no Anti-Aliasing - developers want features andprogrammability, not IQ enhancement.

ATi has gone with IQ enhancement as their primary focus since R300 (AA+AF), whereas nVidia went programmability (shader models above and beyond Sm2.0).

IMO we are fast approaching a point where instead of IHV's driving the future direction of graphics it will be software developers, because GPU's will flexible enough to do anything asked of them. At that point, it will make sense to focus on IQ enhancements, but not before. ATi would have been far better served putting the time and effort it invested into AA &AF enhancements in R4xx into SM3.0 instead.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

too bad that AA isn't needed..

Too bad you're wrong.

it means different things to different people

i personally can do without AA and am therefore willing to substitute AA for HDR or something
but i must play with AF, blurry textures are just no good

others simply cant live with jaggies, it distracts them from the game too much, or thay are perfectionists or whatever

sure AA an AF arent strictly needed to play a game, but once youve sampled the effect they have on IQ, theres no going back.

my 6800GT has allowed me to play my games at 4xAA 8XAf or more usually 2xAA and 16xAF ( i feel that 2xAA is ample, and that 16xAF is a no brainer due to minimal performance hit moving from 8XAF)

but now ill never want to ga back to gaming without these, not looking forward to that day

 

[imported_humey]

I noticed NO difference in DOOM 3 Resurrection Of Evil with AA of or on at 1600x1200 res with all rest maxed, what i did notice was if i set to 16x AA(yes game has setting, i know quadro does that so hardware is there but software isnt, so i assume 16x is same as 8x in the game), my frame rate halfed to 30fps

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: hans030390
From what i have HEARD, next gen games actually wont use anything but SM3 or higher.

Link please? I'd love to hear who said this.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: hans030390
There are many many more things you can do with SM3.0 and not 2.0

List please? Last I heard there were only a couple things SM3.0 could do that SM2.0 couldn't.

 

[nRollo]

For most people, this argument is irrelevant.

1. Most people still own hardware that's too old/slow to wonder about SM2b vs SM3, or soft shadows and HDR.

2. For the people who actually bought X800s it's sort of a moot point. You don't get to see this stuff, arguing about whether you need it is only rationalization of your purchase.

3. For those who bought nV40s (preferably SLI), you get to see all the games as the developers hoped, so all you have to discuss is whether you personally prefer the features on or off. In any case, you're set.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Rollo
For most people, this argument is irrelevant.

1. Most people still own hardware that's too old/slow to wonder about SM2b vs SM3, or soft shadows and HDR.

2. For the people who actually bought X800s it's sort of a moot point. You don't get to see this stuff, arguing about whether you need it is only rationalization of your purchase.

3. For those who bought nV40s (preferably SLI), you get to see all the games as the developers hoped, so all you have to discuss is whether you personally prefer the features on or off. In any case, you're set.

4. For those who bought nV40s (especially SLI), arguing about whether you need it is only rationalization of your purchase.