Why do you guys bother with PC gaming?

[Arg Clin]

why do you guys care so much about who pirates,

Moral issues aside, pirates undermine the revenue streams for developers, meaning less money to be reinvested into bringing out more games. Everybody lose out - assuming the pirates like all other gamers have an interest in more good games comming out.

Sorry for the off topic - just couldn't leave that one alone

 

[taltamir]

Moral issues aside, pirates undermine the revenue streams for developers, meaning less money to be reinvested into bringing out more games. Everybody lose out - assuming the pirates like all other gamers have an interest in more good games comming out.

That depends on the definition of pirate of course... There are those who "pirate" a game they bought because the DRM is too nasty and the cracked copy is actually a superior product. Or download a game because there is no demo and really do buy it if it is good later (you could argue that causes a loss of sales... but only for a bad game. For a good game that causes an increase in sales). Then there are those who couldn't have bought it anyways; ex: under 18 kids with no money to spend on it whose parents refuse to buy it. Or the poor people living in the Peoples Republic of Australia where mature games are illegal to sell period (is it piracy if you would have paid for it had the government allowed you to buy it? or just fighting censorship?) or in other horrible countries (censorship of games is rampant around the world; I am pretty sure a majority of countries censor). Or what if you bought the version released in your country and "pirated" the uncensored version from another? (ex: The Witcher US version was heavily censored. Many americans who bought the game "pirated" a copy of the uncensored UK version)

Speaking of different countries, there is often staggered release schedules. So if your country gets the game 6 months later, is it a "lost sale" for you to download it right away and then buy it when it becomes available in your country?

And then there are those who bought a game and the disc got scratched and now they are up a creek and need a replacement. Then there is the oddballs who are those who are intentionally spreading games of a company they hate / believe who wronged them and want to see go bankrupt (ex: EA). Even if they do not play it themselves.

Take Starcraft 2... blizzard did not allow preoders. You had to buy the game the day it came out or later... Of course their CC server crashed right away from overloading (they did manage to process 1 million sales that day despite that). It took me 3 days to get through and order the game. of the millions in similar state, how many went and downloaded it? And then when I bought it, it took me 3 days to figure out exactly what it was in my security that was blocking the "always on dial home DRM". With it blocked I couldn't play my purchased game. And it had no demo... Oh, and digital download took 2 days later than DVD version to come online... and not all countries got it at the same time... and as usual it was available on pirating sites before actual release day...
So the Game sold 4.5 million units and was downloaded 2.3 million times. How many of the 2.3 million downloads were from customers who paid for the game full price?

I am not condoning any of the above; they are all illegal and as such should never be performed... But just because it is illegal doesn't mean that the people doing it are doing it because they are thieves who just want someone else's work without paying for it. They could very well be criminal scum anarchists trying to topple the government and corrupt the youth by bypassing the righetous and just censorship imposed on them by those who know better. Or entitled parasites who dare believe that they are entitled to play a game they bought despite having a spotty internet connection / scratched disc / etc.

But yes, there is a distinct population of people who just want to steal other's work without paying for it. I always wondered how much. My guess is "so little as to be insignificant"... this is based on the fact that there are titles that are literally not pirated. That if you, for research purposes, check those sites where pirates congregate, you will find no copy of. Highly popular (and selling) indie titles with no DRM are typically that way.

 

[Compddd]

I used to be a huge games pirate, but then I saw the light and now I buy all my games, usually off Steam. Support the developers you cheap assholes!

 

[taltamir]

I used to be a huge games pirate, but then I saw the light and now I buy all my games, usually off Steam. Support the developers you cheap assholes!

Every single one of the people who discussed piracy in this thred prior to you had explicitly stated that they oppose piracy and that they buy all their games. So who exactly are you calling a cheap <self censored>

 

[Arg Clin]

hen there are those who couldn't have bought it anyways; ex: under 18 kids with no money to spend on it whose parents refuse to buy it.

I don't have the necessary money to buy that Porche I'd like. But I could probably scape together the cash to pay for the materials used. So I guess it would be ok for me to steal one at a dealership if I leave just enough money to cover the materials used in the production of one? Nobody lost anything right?

But just because it is illegal doesn't mean that the people doing it are doing it because they are thieves who just want someone else's work without paying for it.

Usually it is.

Or the poor people living in the Peoples Republic of Australia where mature games are illegal to sell period (is it piracy if you would have paid for it had the government allowed you to buy it? or just fighting censorship?) or in other horrible countries (censorship of games is rampant around the world; I am pretty sure a majority of countries censor). Or what if you bought the version released in your country and "pirated" the uncensored version from another? (ex: The Witcher US version was heavily censored. Many americans who bought the game "pirated" a copy of the uncensored UK version)

As for the reasons of bypassing censorship I would think that's understandable. As long as the developer gets paid for their work it's not piracy to me. I highly doubt the IP owners would treat such a case as a real infringement, if the 'infringer' could display owning an actual censored copy of the game. The government whose censorship rules got violated might have some opinions on it, but that's really another issue.

 

[taltamir]

I don't have the necessary money to buy that Porche I'd like. But I could probably scape together the cash to pay for the materials used. So I guess it would be ok for me to steal one at a dealership if I leave just enough money to cover the materials used in the production of one? Nobody lost anything right?

False analogy. The correct one would be to scan the original with your futuristic sensors and then build your own identical copy.

Also, look again where I said I did not condone all the above.

Furthermore, look and see that I didn't say that this particular case was NOT stealing. I said this particular case is not a LOST SALE.

Usually it is.

You just said that people murder, rape, violate censorship laws, break traffic laws, and so on because they are thieves. Look again, I clearly stated "not all pirates are stealing. Some are violating other laws without stealing.

As for the reasons of bypassing censorship I would think that's understandable. As long as the developer gets paid for their work it's not piracy to me. I highly doubt the IP owners would treat such a case as a real infringement, if the 'infringer' could display owning an actual censored copy of the game.

The peoples republic of Australia outright BANS games. Such that it is illegal to sell them, at all. It also has some games censored to avoid a ban...
So there are two scenarios here.
1. Game is outright banned for sale in your country. The developers are not getting a penny from you either way.
2. Game is sold in your country, but censored. You buy it and then download an uncensored version from another country. Developers get paid.

 

[thelastjuju]

I game on PC for a very simple reason. options > no options.

With the console game, that's it.. its a fixed product. But with the PC version, you can do things like mod Morrowind's realm into your Oblivion. (http://morroblivion.com/)

Not to mention, PC game communities tend to be stronger and last much much longer. Console gamers flock from game to game while PC gamers tend to be more dedicated towards certain games.

 

[pw38]

You sound like someone who gets all of their gaming news from a site that has a friend that once walked into a store that used to sell consoles Halo is so huge for Microsoft now they dumped Bungie. The series is still relatively popular(staggering enormous hit by PC standards), but it is so key MS thought it was in their best interest to get rid of the studio that created it.

Bungie wanted out, and MS obliged. They kept Halo, Bungie got what they wanted. You really think MS wanted to get rid of Bungie?

Kinect Adventures has outsold Halo Reach, sure you want to continue this argument?

And Justin Bieber/Lady GaGa/other bullshit hack routinely outsells many more talented artists. What's your point? It doesn't mean the series isn't popular, only that it caters to a different crowd. Success of one series doesn't negate the success of another.

Again, where do you get your information from? This generation if you ignore Call of Duty altogether the go to shooter franchise on the 360 has been Gears of War in terms of critical acclaim. Halo hasn't been considered the best in genre since the second game came out even on the consoles.

Gears has been the beneficiary of a much larger audience too. It doesn't change the fact that if you had to choose one series to pin the fate of the 360 on it would still be Halo.

Goldeneye 007 sold over ten million copies on the N64 years before Halo hit the XBox. Halo didn't make shooters a huge hit on consoles, that had already been done years before by a game that outsold every single PC game ever made at the time it was released.

Goldeneye never cracked 10 million, cite your sources. By all estimates it sold less than 9. Halo 2 and 3 sold about as many, does that mean Halo 2 and 3 are as important to the market as Goldeneye? If we're going off sales figures it appears they are. Your dubious claim regarding PC sales figures needs citing as well otherwise you're pulling numbers to support your argument that you know you can't back up. I'd be interested in seeing them.

Please, stop getting console news from PC gaming sources, at best they are morons on the subject. Nintendo landed Dragon Quest on the Wii and MS has more JRPGs on their system then Sony does this generation. Wherever you get your news from, they have some notions that would have been relatively decent ten years ago, but anyone who follows the market today would know aren't close to accurate. Global sales for Final Fantasy XIII, top selling PS3 RPG this generation, failed to hit 5 million units. By way of comparison, Black Ops is a hair off from 11 million(just on the PS3).

Again, stop trying to marginalize my argument by insinuating I get all my gaming news from some PC outlet. Shifting demographics or not Sony's platform is still seen as the more attractive choice for rpgs. You're denying that?

I still stand by my original statement that you're trying to simplify the PC games argument to further your opinion on how you see the market.

 

[MustangSVT]

cause I need PC for work. I dont need console.

 

[exdeath]

Moral issues aside, pirates undermine the revenue streams for developers, meaning less money to be reinvested into bringing out more games. Everybody lose out - assuming the pirates like all other gamers have an interest in more good games comming out.

Sorry for the off topic - just couldn't leave that one alone

Nothing to do with piracy but:

Oh please... you mean like Call of Duty 1475620 and 1/2 Super Special Black Red Ops Hyper Edition and Madden 183474703?

Gaming choices today SUCK compared to the 16 bit/32 bit era.

Developers don't even try these days anyway. Even when you GIVE them your money, it's all about bug filled games that never get patched and nickle and diming you with 3 month cycles on the next expansion pack or DLC or other cheap thrill franchise.

Hey lets make yet another war themed FPS that takes 30 minutes to beat using rearranged existing content and then sell virtual clothes for XBL avatars! Well fill it up with stupid human pet trick achievements to keep them occupied until the next release, and to keep them from realizing the game itself is nothing more than 30 minutes of recycled garbage.

Activision and EA ruined gaming, among others.

Does anybody else here remember when games had ENDINGS that took longer than it took to beat some new games? Or are most gamers here the younger current gen ADHD crowd that grew up with Halo and Fast and The Furious?

As for piracy... yeah I find myself spending $200+ on mint condition original complete in box 16 bit cartridges these days so no I don't fall into that category. Just stuck a new laser in my SCPH-1001 and what little games I did have pirated I've been throwing them in the trash and buying mint originals.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Yes, both weren't this year... but a year where the absolute top seller console game beats the absolute top seller individual PC game in total amount sold...

I'm comparing the best selling PC titles for the *year* against the best selling console title for a *day*. The disparity on sales for core games is utterly staggering.

PS3, Xbox360, and Wii sales all put together are about 24 billion vs the 17 billion that is PC sales.

Except that is a flat out wrong. You are comparing PC gaming *revenue* to console *boxed retail sales*. WoW's subscriptions are over a billion a year as a general example. PSN and XBL are both around a billion a year each- not counted in your estimate for console sales. Zynga is pushing close to three quarters of a billion dollars, I could go on and on but the point I'm making is that PC gaming revenue right now is dominated by MMOs and casual games, consoles are utterly dominated by core games. I don't see a lot of talk around here about either MMOs or the latest flash based games- I see a lot of discussion about core games and in that market the PC does very, very poorly.

And then you go into the indie space. Games like binding of Isaac, Magicka, meatboy, and Cthulu saves the world... how do they fare?

That's a good thing, but it doesn't change the actual market reality. I'd love to see PC games start selling a metric ton more then they do now, that would only be a positive thing.

And Justin Bieber/Lady GaGa/other bullshit hack routinely outsells many more talented artists. What's your point? It doesn't mean the series isn't popular, only that it caters to a different crowd. Success of one series doesn't negate the success of another.

You are trying to make Halo out to be the key driving force behind the XBox, it most certainly isn't.

It doesn't change the fact that if you had to choose one series to pin the fate of the 360 on it would still be Halo.

Go to a 360 fan site and post that, you'll probably be openly mocked/laughed at.

Goldeneye never cracked 10 million, cite your sources.

It did actually, but my numbers do include the rerelease- didn't look at the close enough(it sold 1.46Million units on the Wii rerelease). I was mistaken about it hitting that on the N64, although at the time the highest selling PC game ever was Myst at 6 Million so that point still stands

Halo 2 and 3 sold about as many, does that mean Halo 2 and 3 are as important to the market as Goldeneye?

Absolutely it does. It's importance today? Close to zilch.

Shifting demographics or not Sony's platform is still seen as the more attractive choice for rpgs. You're denying that?

In no uncertain terms. Absolutely. Without a hint of a doubt. As of right now, the PS3 may well be the least attractive platform for RPGs on the market(including the DS and PSP) when DQX hits.

Your dubious claim regarding PC sales figures needs citing as well otherwise you're pulling numbers to support your argument that you know you can't back up. I'd be interested in seeing them.

Sure-

And game software sales were $264.8 million, down 34 percent from $403.5 million a year ago.

If you throw in the sales of PC, console and portable games, the total is $285.9 million, down 37 percent from $455.0 million a year ago. That means that PC games continue to be weak.

http://venturebeat.com/2011/09/08/retail-video-game-sales-plunge-23-percent-in-august/

http://www.stratagonline.com/?p=1312

Retail numbers have consoles outselling PCs by ~10:1. Steam revenue is hitting ~$80 Million a month. Those retail numbers are just the US, Steam numbers are global. Trying to stack the deck in the PCs favor to a rather huge degree, it loses 3:1. I could keep going, but it isn't going to look any better. I also track the financials of most of the game companies, PC revenue outside of those that make casual games or MMOs is largely a rounding error.

 

[Craig234]

Can you back this up.

There's no dearth of PC games. There is a loss of market share to consoles.

 

[Lonbjerg]

There's no dearth of PC games. There is a loss of market share to consoles.

If this is dying and lossing marketshare, I wouldn't mind being in that position:
http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2011/03/record-profits-for-pc-gaming-in-2010/

 

[taltamir]

As for piracy... yeah I find myself spending $200+ on mint condition original complete in box 16 bit cartridges these days so no I don't fall into that category. Just stuck a new laser in my SCPH-1001 and what little games I did have pirated I've been throwing them in the trash and buying mint originals.

The people that invented the word piracy believe buying used is piracy. It denies developers money, and why does buying a license to use their intellectual property confer on you the right to resell it?

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

The people that invented the word piracy believe buying used is piracy. It denies developers money, and why does buying a license to use their intellectual property confer on you the right to resell it?

For that matter, I don't think that they're fans of buying heavily discounted games either. My backlog of games to play is so large that I usually end up buying titles (collector's / limited editions even) for a song.

 

[Craig234]

If this is dying and lossing marketshare, I wouldn't mind being in that position:
http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2011/03/record-profits-for-pc-gaming-in-2010/

You misrepresented what I said. Do you know what 'no dearth of PC games' is saying?

The PC game market is strong - but the console market is even stronger.

 

[Craig234]

The people that invented the word piracy believe buying used is piracy. It denies developers money, and why does buying a license to use their intellectual property confer on you the right to resell it?

That's not correct, unless the license prohibits selling the game used. Publishers would rather games not be sold used, I suspect, which is why we see one-time keys now.

Also why we see an especially high interest from publishers in Steam, which has games that can't be resold (under the rules), and MMO's with subscriptions/ongoing charges.

Piracy generally refers to software simply illegally copied for non-paying users.

 

[HeXen]

I remember back in early 90's, our school pirated an IBM game called Indy500. they had a drawer of some 100+ floppies with masking tape on it saying the title. but things were different back then in regards to this.

 

[jordanecmusic]

"better" is subjective. Use what you like and leave others preferences alone.

yeah so you prefer 720p and sub720p games without any antialiasing, antistropic filtering, the ability to use 3 or more screens for more immersive gaming, better framerates, higher resolution textures, user created maps and content, mods...

Ignorant consolite is ignorant!

And about Pirating...Who ever mentioned DRM you are right. Its complete BS that you are required to have a stable internet connection, the cd drive running the game at all times, and a heartbeat monitor strapped to you to just play the game. What about the military personel who have gaming laptops but do not have the internet accessible to them?

Also, where are our demo's? Crysis had a demo. Crysis 2 had a demo. Left 4 Dead 2 had a demo. Devs have potential to lower piracy by just releasing game demos. I mean Dead Island was a demo (since its been proven that the game was actually released as a beta http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152569 ). Point is, if you don't want people to torrent the game just to see if its any good, then release a demo!!!!!

Pirating becomes a moral issue of self suicide towards the PC gaming community. Piracy could be one of the reasons that developers have switched to creating games for consoles first then pc last. Another reason is that Developers have gotten lazy over the years and decided that crafting the games for console saves time and money because they do not have to create higher resolution textures (looking at you call of duty black ops and mw3), larger maps (im looking at you crysis 2), optimize for all pc's (im looking at you gta4), or allow antialiasing (im looking at you unreal engine 3) for the games.

(before Mr. Consolite uses my words against me, Black ops, crysis 2, gta4, and unreal tournament 3 all look and play better on pc)

Crysis 2 redeems itself with the DX11 and Hires Patches but it should have been there to start off with!

 

[taltamir]

That's not correct

Yes it is correct.

unless the license prohibits selling the game used.

Utterly irrelevant.
Read what I said

The people that invented the word piracy believe buying used is piracy. It denies developers money, and why does buying a license to use their intellectual property confer on you the right to resell it?

What the RIAA, MPAA, and their ilk hold as opinion has nothing to do with the law. Piracy also has nothing to do with the law. Distributing content you don't have a copyright for is illegal, and cracking DRM is illegal (DMCA violations). Neither of those is called "piracy" by the court.

Piracy generally refers to software simply illegally copied for non-paying users.

Not really. Piracy was coined by certain groups on purpose, it was meant to be associated with pirates, unwashed louts who would pillage rape and murder.
However they now realized that people think pirates are cool and as such are moving away from such terminology.

Any type of study or official source all refer to all downloads as piracy, not only downloads by non-paying users.

Also the term was coined before it was made illegal, and was actually part of the campaign to make it illegal.

Oh, fun fact. Public libraries are government sponsored piracy.

Sony BGM CEO said his goal is to have people repurchase music every 6 months. The RIAA said they consider libraries to be piracy. Bill gates championed trusted computing, having said "at first we were looking at using it to stop piracy, but then we realized that documents and emails are much more valuable" in regards to the big brother tech of trusted computing.

Activation limits (EA) has only one purpose, to screw the customer. And speaking of EA, the day 0 release of separate "add ons" for dragon age which you get for free if you bought the game new and registered with their spyware program that must be running and connected to the internet while you are playing is targeted at the second hand market. (all the "extras" from dragon age are available with cracked copies)

oh yea, and format shifting and archiving is also piracy.

 

[HeXen]

yeah so you prefer 720p and sub720p games without any antialiasing, antistropic filtering, the ability to use 3 or more screens for more immersive gaming..blah, blah

The reason for people choosing a console to play their games over a PC is not for you to judge.
As far as graphics, most people don't give a crap so long as their fun to play.

So ok, you obviously hate people who choose a console. so what? is that suppose to bend reality or something?

 

[pw38]

You are trying to make Halo out to be the key driving force behind the XBox, it most certainly isn't.

It's been the driving for behind the brand. The last few years have seen a shift towards MW, true, and I'll wager that once Halo 4 releases you'll see that shift back towards their shooter.

Go to a 360 fan site and post that, you'll probably be openly mocked/laughed at.

Depends on which one. Any of the Halo fan sites will certainly agree with me. It depends on who you ask, but that should be obvious.

It did actually, but my numbers do include the rerelease- didn't look at the close enough(it sold 1.46Million units on the Wii rerelease). I was mistaken about it hitting that on the N64, although at the time the highest selling PC game ever was Myst at 6 Million so that point still stands

Gotcha, simple misunderstanding on our part. You're correct though, the consoles have outsold the PC space for years now, and pretty easily too. Of course that's like saying a Ford F150 is going to outsell a Ford GT. One is for the masses, the other is definitely not. (I'm gonna pretend I have a Ford GT of a computer here )

Absolutely it does. It's importance today? Close to zilch.

We'll agree to disagree on that one.

In no uncertain terms. Absolutely. Without a hint of a doubt. As of right now, the PS3 may well be the least attractive platform for RPGs on the market(including the DS and PSP) when DQX hits.

Same here although I take into account the worldwide market which includes Japan. Still, we seem to be correct in different ways so it's a wash.

Sure-





http://venturebeat.com/2011/09/08/retail-video-game-sales-plunge-23-percent-in-august/

http://www.stratagonline.com/?p=1312

Retail numbers have consoles outselling PCs by ~10:1. Steam revenue is hitting ~$80 Million a month. Those retail numbers are just the US, Steam numbers are global. Trying to stack the deck in the PCs favor to a rather huge degree, it loses 3:1. I could keep going, but it isn't going to look any better. I also track the financials of most of the game companies, PC revenue outside of those that make casual games or MMOs is largely a rounding error.

I think we're not seeing eye to eye on this one. I meant back in the day which I'm assuming you meant when refering to Goldeneye. Compared to today, yeah you're totally correct. The market is different, for sure.


Enjoyed it.

 

[ManBearPig]

I think before people answer this question they should be required to play for a while on both formats lol

 

[lehtv]

People are still answering this thread? Roflmao. Do you realize the OP hasn't been here after the first post?

 

[Rifter]

People are still answering this thread? Roflmao. Do you realize the OP hasn't been here after the first post?

really smart guy what do you call post # 176??????