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Why do we hate Putin again?

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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
179
106
Really? The people of Tibet, India, Vietnam, Inner Mongolia would highly disagree with you. And this is just from the time of creation of commie china since 1949 and not just from way back when (you do know that originally, china was just about 1/3 of its current size, right?).
Those wars were a long time ago. We are talking about current behavior right now. Not to say that those actions arent important, but if we are going to bring those past wars from a long time ago into this, then we also have to bring stuff like the invasion of Czechloslovakia, invasion of Afghanistan, and Russian-Chinese Border War into this.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
179
106
The way I see it is this: There are 3 major world powers on Earth right now that are expansionist to some degree with their ideologies. The top dog is the United States, which while doesn't take any territory for themselves, prefers allies that are in alignment with their economic and political goals. The second is Russia, which has a long history of empire building, and because of their unique geographical location of their capital, needs to have large buffer zones to protect themselves from invaders. The third is China, which has always been a private and powerful country, but has grown economically, and thus politically and militarily as a result.

And so, regardless of whoever is right or wrong, the three are just going to compete. The US has a recent, but strong history of distrust with Russia, and the two are at the point where they compete over allies. Why do you think Syria is such a big deal for both countries? Because if Syria is stable, they become an oil outlet for Iran, which is a competitor to Saudi Arabia.

So, it's about the money. Follow the money and you understand the motives of the three.
AHEM .....

 
Nov 30, 2006
15,468
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“The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.” - Obama (2012)

Trump has more than a few hardliners in his cabinet...and I highly doubt we'll be as soft on Putin as Obama has been.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
16,859
900
126
Those wars were a long time ago. We are talking about current behavior right now. Not to say that those actions arent important, but if we are going to bring those past wars from a long time ago into this, then we also have to bring stuff like the invasion of Czechloslovakia, invasion of Afghanistan, and Russian-Chinese Border War into this.
Well, if you want to talk about recently, let talk about the 9 dash line or the cow tongue of commie china. See it? That's how much china is claiming as its own territory, 90% of INTERNATIONAL body of water. And look up on how commie china invaded and took the whole Paracels and parts of Spratlys and used intimidation and lies to take Scarborough Shoal from smaller neighbors. Don't forget how commie china used bigger ships to ram small wooden fishing boats from poor and unarmed fishermen to prevent them from fishing in international water.



The UN/World Court/Tribune declared a few months ago that commie china has no right (historically or anything) to claim such outrageous and laughable thing.

Imagine Iran gets a line and claims 90% of the Persian Gulf as its own. LOL.
 
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desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Well, if you want to talk about recently, let talk about the 9 dash line or the cow tongue of commie china. See it? That's how much china is claiming as its own territory, 90% of INTERNATIONAL body of water. And look up on how commie china invaded and took the whole Paracels and parts of Spratlys and used intimidation and lies to take Scarborough Shoal from smaller neighbors



The UN/World Court/Tribune declared a few months ago that commie china has no right (historically or anything) to claim such outrageous and laughable thing.

Imagine Iran gets a line and claims 90% of the Persian Gulf as its own. LOL.
Precisely. Add to that China's huge population and a historical narrative which IMO is more unstable than Russia's, and you have the possibility of a real peer competitor to the USA.

Russia is managing decline, sure, but China's 1.2 billion people is inherently more unstable because there are so many.
 

jeff_in_MD

Member
Oct 7, 2016
51
5
36
The way I see it is this: There are 3 major world powers on Earth right now that are expansionist to some degree with their ideologies. The top dog is the United States, which while doesn't take any territory for themselves, prefers allies that are in alignment with their economic and political goals. The second is Russia, which has a long history of empire building, and because of their unique geographical location of their capital, needs to have large buffer zones to protect themselves from invaders. The third is China, which has always been a private and powerful country, but has grown economically, and thus politically and militarily as a result.

And so, regardless of whoever is right or wrong, the three are just going to compete. The US has a recent, but strong history of distrust with Russia, and the two are at the point where they compete over allies. Why do you think Syria is such a big deal for both countries? Because if Syria is stable, they become an oil outlet for Iran, which is a competitor to Saudi Arabia.

So, it's about the money. Follow the money and you understand the motives of the three.
But why does Trump support Russia and their policies in Syria while wanting to place sanctions back on Iran? If Syria becomes stable will be still support sanctions on Iran against the wishes if Russia?

Yes everything revolves around money but not though a straight line.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Says the Russian traitorous troll.
How am I being traitorous? What is with this Russia-hating hysteria? All it does is create this loop of mutual suspicion which is pretty destructive and unnecessary. Don't disagree that there is much questionable, but a lot of it is like blaming Obama for the murder of Michael Brown. You could easily set it up like that, and someone without knowledge of the nuance of the situation wouldn't know the better.
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
906
106
It is hysteria. They're all hysterical. They should end their hysterics.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Seriously, no one has laid out a good case that doesn't sound like neo-con "spreading democracy" for hating Putin. No one has laid out a strategic vision of the future.

Like, I guess it might make sense to keep Russia weak and off-guard if just to keep them distracted and occupied. But it really doesn't make sense to bring up gay rights of all things when that is just an extension of domestic politics to an international sphere.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
In a way we gotta thank trump for finally gathering all the worst people on the same side.

How am I being traitorous? What is with this Russia-hating hysteria? All it does is create this loop of mutual suspicion which is pretty destructive and unnecessary. Don't disagree that there is much questionable, but a lot of it is like blaming Obama for the murder of Michael Brown. You could easily set it up like that, and someone without knowledge of the nuance of the situation wouldn't know the better.
Hardly a coincidence the white-country crowd find Putin & co less off-putting than all the brown folks.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
179
106
Well, if you want to talk about recently, let talk about the 9 dash line or the cow tongue of commie china. See it? That's how much china is claiming as its own territory, 90% of INTERNATIONAL body of water. And look up on how commie china invaded and took the whole Paracels and parts of Spratlys and used intimidation and lies to take Scarborough Shoal from smaller neighbors. Don't forget how commie china used bigger ships to ram small wooden fishing boats from poor and unarmed fishermen to prevent them from fishing in international water.



The UN/World Court/Tribune declared a few months ago that commie china has no right (historically or anything) to claim such outrageous and laughable thing.

Imagine Iran gets a line and claims 90% of the Persian Gulf as its own. LOL.
None of that territory is actually officially considered part of any country however. The PRC, ROC, Philippines, Malaysia, and Vietnam have all been squabbling over those islands for decades. Furthermore, no one actually really lives on those islands, and they are not significant homeland territories of any country in the area.

Im not saying what China is doing right now is ok, Im just saying that it in no way compares to what Russia has done, and is still currently doing right now.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
In a way we gotta thank trump for finally gathering all the worst people on the same side.



Hardly a coincidence the white-country crowd find Putin & co less off-putting than all the brown folks.
You know why? Because Putin and co haven't attacked the United States, while Muslims have.

The elite establishment is in denial. They crave having the Russians as enemies because they are the perfect enemy for them. They are white, so they don't feel guilty over that. In fact, I have seen elite people try and see racism in Chinese and Russian societies, which is ludicrous considering that those countries never had slaves.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Russia is an authoritarian state whose values contradict ours. Putin is the dictator of said state. Russia may be waning in power but is still one of most powerful nations in the world, and any rise in their strength is a potential threat to American interests. It's not the same as some tin pot dictator taking charge of some virtually irrelevant state in Central or South America. Although we get involved in those as well. But that's another discussion.
Well said.

Plus, dude is a dick.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
You know why? Because Putin and co haven't attacked the United States, while Muslims have.

The elite establishment is in denial. They crave having the Russians as enemies because they are the perfect enemy for them. They are white, so they don't feel guilty over that. In fact, I have seen elite people try and see racism in Chinese and Russian societies, which is ludicrous considering that those countries never had slaves.
Putin has been set on reconstituting their rival/adversarial superpower status, or at least perception as such, and it's hard to argue this threat with thousands of nukes and other advanced tech pales to some largely hapless brown people no matter what many conservatives are willing to believe. Never knew such wannabe tough guys are so easily content to be the bottom in that relationship.

Also worth mentioning that many countries had their share of ethnic strife, even if you're not made aware of much by the right wing media.

None of that territory is actually officially considered part of any country however. The PRC, ROC, Philippines, Malaysia, and Vietnam have all been squabbling over those islands for decades. Furthermore, no one actually really lives on those islands, and they are not significant homeland territories of any country in the area.

Im not saying what China is doing right now is ok, Im just saying that it in no way compares to what Russia has done, and is still currently doing right now.
You seem under the impression that you were arguing someone with the mental acuity to discern proportionality.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
I was tempted to start listing info documenting his rise to power, the stuff that went on during the second Chechen war, Crimea, Ukraine all the political assassinations. Assessments by US intelligence all the years. How Putin has locked down the media, locked down government and effectively turned the Russia into a dictatorship.
There is no debate. Changes occurring in Russia and Putin's rise have been well documented for decades.
Of course it was never as headline worthy as this stuff unfolded.

However, I came to my senses and realized it's a pretty pointless waste of my time.
All I can recommend to folks who are actually interested Russia and Putins rise is to first start using sources older than 2016 before Trump started spreading pro Putin narratives in the media.

And for F&4K sake, random assholes on youtube and blogs are not a source.
If there was any doubt of how potent & clever Putin is, witness how easily he got half the american populace apologizing for him if not caressing his balls by attacking their Real enemy, the centrist democrats.

All he has to for the next 8 years is compliment how smart/awesome Trump & loyalists are, talk shit about libtards or whatever, and may many riches come the way of this fellow Real patriot.
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,012
2,897
136
Seriously, no one has laid out a good case that doesn't sound like neo-con "spreading democracy" for hating Putin. No one has laid out a strategic vision of the future.

Like, I guess it might make sense to keep Russia weak and off-guard if just to keep them distracted and occupied. But it really doesn't make sense to bring up gay rights of all things when that is just an extension of domestic politics to an international sphere.
"So other than human rights, democracy, self-determination, integrity of Europe, international alliances, rule of law, discourgement of Chinese aggression, and geopolical stability...

No one can come up with any good reasons, so we should BFF with Putin because he's good at bombing Muslims. Hugs and kisses comrades."
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
906
106
Human rights... feline rights.... fish rights... all of these are nebulous inventions by idealists, who never had to dal with the kinds of stresses and fluid situations as a president. The reality is that the only people with rights are those who have the power to enforce those rights upon others. Human rights are a myth, and Humans are irrelevant; We already have robots with the "right" to kill people.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
"So other than human rights, democracy, self-determination, integrity of Europe, international alliances, rule of law, discourgement of Chinese aggression, and geopolical stability...

No one can come up with any good reasons, so we should BFF with Putin because he's good at bombing Muslims. Hugs and kisses comrades."
Democracy promotion is really dumb. It didn't work in Iraq. It really isn't applicable to most societies. Most of the time it is just a veneer under which the same old power cliches rule as before. It ends up being a form of kow-towing, in a Chinese sense, to the Americans, where the members of the ruling cliche give lip service.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Is Putin less venal that Sisi of Egypt? Or the Saudi Monarchy who is waging this war in Yemen, and which recently executed a Shia cleric political dissident a few months back? An objective assessment untainted by gulf money would probably show that Russia is a much more free society than our Muslim "allies."
 

Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,012
2,897
136
Democracy promotion is really dumb. It didn't work in Iraq. It really isn't applicable to most societies. Most of the time it is just a veneer under which the same old power cliches rule as before. It ends up being a form of kow-towing, in a Chinese sense, to the Americans, where the members of the ruling cliche give lip service.
Yea, democracy was the fatal flaw to the otherwise brilliant Iraq invasion plan of the last GOP president...

You're right, you've really convinced me with your logic, historical analysis and strategic thinking.

We really should ally with a nuclear armed criminal syndicate parading around as a country.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Yea, democracy was the fatal flaw to the otherwise brilliant Iraq invasion plan of the last GOP president...

You're right, you've really convinced me with your logic, historical analysis and strategic thinking.

We really should ally with a nuclear armed criminal syndicate parading around as a country.
We're allied with the Saudis, aren't we?
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
16,859
900
126
None of that territory is actually officially considered part of any country however. The PRC, ROC, Philippines, Malaysia, and Vietnam have all been squabbling over those islands for decades. Furthermore, no one actually really lives on those islands, and they are not significant homeland territories of any country in the area.

Im not saying what China is doing right now is ok, Im just saying that it in no way compares to what Russia has done, and is still currently doing right now.
Other countries have been in control their areas for years. Sure, other countries bickering among themselves but commie china was the ONLY one that used deadly force to invade and lies to take those areas from smaller neighbors. Commie china never had any historical control of anything in SCS (the 9 dash line), that's why commie china declined to participate in the UN/World Court because it knew all along that it would lose the case and sure enough, it did lose badly.

Those are facts and they are recent (the UN/World Court decision against commie china was just a few months ago).

One more thing, do you know why china would not dare to pull a stunt in SCS (for now) as Russia in Europe? Because of the US Navy/military might...ie The 7th Fleet right next door. Plus Japan has one of the strongest military force (quality speaking) in Asia. Not as easy for china to push Japan and S. Korea around as Russia did against Ukraine.
 

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