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Why do we hate Putin again?

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desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Whether it made sense for NATO to expand or not is moot, it made sense for those Nations to join NATO. If Russia doesn't like it, that's Russia's problem.
It made sense for them, yes. But it makes no sense for us.

It would also make sense for Pakistan to join NATO. But if Pakistan joins NATO then of course you got a problem with India. Pakistan obviously benefits immensely. But the NATO members on a whole lose because now they have possible conflict with India, which has nuclear weapons and a billion people.

But if Pakistan wants to join, why shouldn't it? By your logic.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
19,250
10,056
136
This sort of pithy reasoning is what is wrong with our liberal establishment.
It is a simple statement of fact. Please cite an example of Russia's neighbors invading it since the break up of the Soviet Union.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
11,836
140
106
Can we ask the question like this without caring about Putin at all:

How do we hate?

Is it because our political party tells us to? Is it because our college textbook painted some group as the villain? Is it because our fellow brother from our race told us to fight some other group of people?

I think asking these questions goes a long way in helping people rather than worrying about Putin or some other political puppet.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
It is a simple statement of fact. Please cite an example of Russia's neighbors invading it since the break up of the Soviet Union.
As I said, NATO expansion effectively means that potentially hostile forces are like 1000 miles closer to Moscow than they were during the time of the Soviet Union. That is effectively invading its space and challenging its strategic calculations.

It isn't that hard to imagine. The USA went bonkers when Cuba decided to host nuclear missiles. They are a sovereign state, no? They had the right to do whatever they wanted, no? Was the USA wrong to tell Cuba no nuclear missiles?
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,064
121
As I said, NATO expansion effectively means that potentially hostile forces are like 1000 miles closer to Moscow than they were during the time of the Soviet Union. That is effectively invading its space and challenging its strategic calculations.

It isn't that hard to imagine. The USA went bonkers when Cuba decided to host nuclear missiles. They are a sovereign state, no? They had the right to do whatever they wanted, no? Was the USA wrong to tell Cuba no nuclear missiles?
You seem to be contradicting yourself a lot of the time, in reality.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,064
121
Then argue it instead of throwing out this accusation with nothing backing it up.
You have not thrown out a single valid thing as proof for your blithering, other than a couple YouTube videos, so I won't waste my time.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
You have not thrown out a single thing as proof for your blithering, and I won't waste my time.
More like you are so trapped in the PC unreality bubble like the rest of the HRC cliche that you refuse to consider alternate POV. And you are unwilling to contemplate it, a sure sign of the intellectual rigidity which has destroyed the D party.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
19,250
10,056
136
More like you are so trapped in the PC unreality bubble like the rest of the HRC cliche that you refuse to consider alternate POV. And you are unwilling to contemplate it, a sure sign of the intellectual rigidity which has destroyed the D party.
Derp
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
26,005
389
126
Vlad Putin has had political opponents arrested on trumped up tax charges, jailed for several years. Others have been killed, including a reporter. TV stations have been taken over by force, including Russia's largest social media platform VK.COM for opposing Putin (they were sold to units of GAZPROM, Russia's largest energy concern worth hundreds of billions...and Putin secretly owns a large piece of it). He is pretty evil.

However, we have to deal with Vlad Putin because he will likely be its dictator for life.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
You have not thrown out a single valid thing as proof for your blithering, other than a couple YouTube videos, so I won't waste my time.
Gee, and both videos contain a pretty vigorous prosecution of Russia and a counter argument. One of the videos contains an argument from Anne Applebaum, one of the foremost Russia critics in the country, unedited, in her own words.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Vlad Putin has had political opponents arrested on trumped up tax charges, jailed for several years. Others have been killed, including a reporter. TV stations have been taken over by force, including Russia's largest social media platform VK.COM for opposing Putin (they were sold to units of GAZPROM, Russia's largest energy concern worth hundreds of billions...and Putin secretly owns a large piece of it). He is pretty evil.

However, we have to deal with Vlad Putin because he will likely be its dictator for life.
Don't deny that, except to say that neither you or I read Russian and understand it. In terms of priorities, cooperation with Russia as it is is necessary for our mutual security and prosperity, and waging ideological half-thought out battles is counter to that goal.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Uh, what? if you're asserting that this guy was a victim of Putin...you're dead dead wrong. If anything, Washington ideologues have a tendency to pin the wildest Alex Jones level conspiracy theories against Putin. The latest I read in the Daily Beast somehow thinks that Putin created Islamic terrorism.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Interesting how the op starts a thread asking for info and then proceeds to shoot everything down as some form of liberal propaganda. Guess this really was a troll thread. Thumbs up op.
As I said, I paid more attention to China before Russia. The stuff China does is more extreme than these stories of Russia.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
179
106
As I said, I paid more attention to China before Russia. The stuff China does is more extreme than these stories of Russia.


LOL at you not knowing shit about what is going on in the world.

No, Russia has been pulling far worse shit than China has been.

Last I checked, China hasnt invaded any official territory of other countries yet.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,421
127
106
The way I see it is this: There are 3 major world powers on Earth right now that are expansionist to some degree with their ideologies. The top dog is the United States, which while doesn't take any territory for themselves, prefers allies that are in alignment with their economic and political goals. The second is Russia, which has a long history of empire building, and because of their unique geographical location of their capital, needs to have large buffer zones to protect themselves from invaders. The third is China, which has always been a private and powerful country, but has grown economically, and thus politically and militarily as a result.

And so, regardless of whoever is right or wrong, the three are just going to compete. The US has a recent, but strong history of distrust with Russia, and the two are at the point where they compete over allies. Why do you think Syria is such a big deal for both countries? Because if Syria is stable, they become an oil outlet for Iran, which is a competitor to Saudi Arabia.

So, it's about the money. Follow the money and you understand the motives of the three.
 
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Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
16,859
900
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Last I checked, China hasnt invaded any official territory of other countries yet.
Really? The people of Tibet, India, Vietnam, Inner Mongolia would highly disagree with you. And this is just from the time of creation of commie china since 1949 and not just from way back when (you do know that originally, china was just about 1/3 of its current size, right?).
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
50,233
2,910
126
Interesting how the op starts a thread asking for info and then proceeds to shoot everything down as some form of liberal propaganda. Guess this really was a troll thread. Thumbs up op.
Yeah, most of his threads seem to be.
 

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