Why are there Obama haters?

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Svnla
Hate? Not me.

I just don't believe like BO's believers that he will solve all our problems if he becomes the next president of the US.

Just to say "let change" won't change a darn thing if you don't willing/want to do the hard parts ..ie. solve the HUGE problem of SS, Medicare, economy, terrorist, just to name a few.

To me, he is just another politician from the other party <different name, same old ways of doing things>.

I can't understand people like you, or let's just say I understand you better than you do.

How on earth could you believe Obama won't solve all of our problems. How naive can you be. Obama is a magician and controls manna from heaven. Open your stupid eyes. He has all the answers and has promised to save all mankind. Try to have a little faith, for crap sake. Solving all our problems is just really simple.

All Obama intends to do is say, "Lets change!" and the waters will part and we'll head into the Promise Land. Those hard parts, of course, Obama will ignore because he hasn't a clue what to do there. But they will fall like all the other dominoes just from Obama's Divine Wind.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: spidey07
Vic,

I don't know about you but I can get any health insurance I want and can deduct those premiums. I can go to any doctor I want and get any procedure I want. The healthcare system is pretty dang great right now. Although any move to pure free market with NO government regulation other than possibly safety and accountability is a good thing.

The vast majority of health care plans available do not provide the kind of quality you are describing. The few that are available are either not offered by the jobs which are held by the majority of Americans or they are available but the cost per month is no where close to being affordable. Read the article Vic posted and don't dismiss it because that is the reality whether you want to believe it or not.

Again, quality health care should not be reserved for the upper middle class and the rich alone. Everyone deserves quality health care.

Well that's the fault of the person and their fault alone. Personal responsibility, they need to have it.

Why did they take a job with inadequate health insurance? Why did they not supplement that insurance? Why is it MY responsibility to make good choices for them and pay for them?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: feralkid
Libertarian: It's not change; they're all the same, grumble, grumble.

Actually, many of Paul's supporters, or fans now , would most likely support Obama over McCain.

But that said, with Obama, we see big change in domestic policies, but as I have pointed out in other threads, not a big change in regards to foreign policy.

I don't hate Obama, but that's not not going to stop me from pointing out my disagreements with him. I'd happily take him over McCain, but I still will vote for the LP candidate.

I think the only hate you'll see for Obama are from Bush fans, racists, Hillary junkies, and from those who think they are conservatives, but ironically support neo-conservative foreign policies. Two ideas that are greatly conflicting, IMO.

The only big change you'll see if Obama gets in the White House is the change in your pocket getting less as you are taxed out the ass to pay for his universal health care, and the shredding of the constitution, specifically the 2nd amendment.
Say what you will about bush and his administration and their abuse of the constitution, but Obama will be no better as he wants a complete ban of all firearms.

He, and Dems in general don't want law abiding citizens to have guns because they want them to live in fear of criminals so they will feel compelled to support an overbearing "protectionist" government. All the bullshit about it saving children's lives is hogwash when more kids are killed in car accidents every year, and there is no Constitutional amendment granting us the right to drive a car.

Also, so far, I haven't heard McCain lie about anything. He admitted he isn't a strong with economics and that's why he would have advisors. Yet Obama and Clinton are economists, and undoubtedly are going to rely on economists to help them, but they get no flak over it.

You're so misinformed and ignorant, it's not even funny.

First, there will be no socialist UHC from any candidate.
Second, your taxes are going up regardless, to pay for GW's deficits. Just like GHWB had to break his "read my lips" promise and raise taxes to pay for Reagan's deficits. The party's over, and the check is on the table. I'm hoping you got something out of it, because most of America feels like they didn't.
Third, the 2nd amendment is about to be made practically inviolate by SCOTUS decision (should come out this month) in such a way that no administration will be able to even scratch for decades. Take the tinfoil off. Even countries that have banned guns in recent decades (like Britain) are likely to start relaxing those bans. This battle is over for now, banning guns didn't stop crime. Obama does not support banning firearms.
Fourth, Obama and Clinton are not economists. All Presidents rely on advisers. You're not electing a person, but a team.

Shall I go on?

 

[spidey07]

Vic, Obama has already openly stated he wants to repeal the capital gains and other tax cuts.

That equals = raising taxes and taking more of your money.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: spidey07
Vic,

I don't know about you but I can get any health insurance I want and can deduct those premiums. I can go to any doctor I want and get any procedure I want. The healthcare system is pretty dang great right now. Although any move to pure free market with NO government regulation other than possibly safety and accountability is a good thing.

The vast majority of health care plans available do not provide the kind of quality you are describing. The few that are available are either not offered by the jobs which are held by the majority of Americans or they are available but the cost per month is no where close to being affordable. Read the article Vic posted and don't dismiss it because that is the reality whether you want to believe it or not.

Again, quality health care should not be reserved for the upper middle class and the rich alone. Everyone deserves quality health care.

Well that's the fault of the person and their fault alone. Personal responsibility, they need to have it.

Why did they take a job with inadequate health insurance? Why did they not supplement that insurance? Why is it MY responsibility to make good choices for them and pay for them?

As soon as you can prove to me that there are enough jobs available out there for every American which offers this kind of quality health insurance and covers the majority of the cost then we'll talk. Until then, you have the vast majority of America who is just going to sit smack, snicker, and shake their heads at you whether you like it or not.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Well that's the fault of the person and their fault alone. Personal responsibility, they need to have it.

Why did they take a job with inadequate health insurance? Why did they not supplement that insurance? Why is it MY responsibility to make good choices for them and pay for them?

Why should I or anyone else have to "take a job" in order to get govt-subsidized health insurance coverage? What do you have against the self-employed? Or contractors? Or entrepreneurs? Since when did American capitalism become that you have to work for someone else or be punished financially? by the government?!??

The issue here is that YOU do not have personal responsibility. YOU are the one who fancies themselves entitled. YOU are the one who are forcing people to pay for YOU by dictating what is and is not considered a "good choice." Your hypocrisy is simply outrageous.

 

[Zebo]

don't hate him at all I think he's personable and very intelligent, genius level.

i dislike his views - particularly his racist rejection and stereotyping of his white family I read in Dreams. His failure to see blacks simply commit more crime rather than the system is corrupt as he claims. his wanting to enable the black community to be wards of the state even further with wealth redistribution rather than preaching hard work. the conspiratorail racist company he keeps and those ideals may translate into policy I fear. I don't trust him.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
As soon as you can prove to me that there are enough jobs available out there which offer this kind of quality health insurance then we'll talk. Until then, you have the vast majority of America who is just going to sit smack, snicker, and shake their heads at you whether you like it or not.

You don't have to have a job to get health insurance. You don't have to have a job to get supplemental insurance. Why is this so difficult to understand? The manufacturing industry typically has outstanding benefits some of the best available so that's a pretty good amount of jobs out there.

So again, personal responsibility dictates that if one doesn't have adequate health coverage then they supplement it or get a different job or get a totally different plan. Personal responsibility means one should take an active role in their health insurance decisions and not hold out their hand.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Xavier434
As soon as you can prove to me that there are enough jobs available out there which offer this kind of quality health insurance then we'll talk. Until then, you have the vast majority of America who is just going to sit smack, snicker, and shake their heads at you whether you like it or not.

You don't have to have a job to get health insurance. You don't have to have a job to get supplemental insurance. Why is this so difficult to understand? The manufacturing industry typically has outstanding benefits some of the best available so that's a pretty good amount of jobs out there.

So again, personal responsibility dictates that if one doesn't have adequate health coverage then they supplement it or get a different job or get a totally different plan. Personal responsibility means one should take an active role in their health insurance decisions and not hold out their hand.

GUYS IF THEY DON'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE THEY SHOULD JUST GET IT.

IN OTHER NEWS ALL THOSE PEOPLE IN AFRICA ARE POOR BECAUSE THEY ARE LAZY.

Spidey, these are the sorts of arguments I would expect out of the chairman of the young Republicans at a local high school.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: spidey07
Well that's the fault of the person and their fault alone. Personal responsibility, they need to have it.

Why did they take a job with inadequate health insurance? Why did they not supplement that insurance? Why is it MY responsibility to make good choices for them and pay for them?

Why should I or anyone else have to "take a job" in order to get govt-subsidized health insurance coverage? What do you have against the self-employed? Or contractors? Or entrepreneurs? Since when did American capitalism become that you have to work for someone else or be punished financially? by the government?!??

The issue here is that YOU do not have personal responsibility. YOU are the one who fancies themselves entitled. YOU are the one who are forcing people to pay for YOU by dictating what is and is not considered a "good choice." Your hypocrisy is simply outrageous.

Spidey, Vic is right. What you are proposing is that is it irresponsible for people to freely exercise their right to do anything but walk the only path that this country is providing which offers decent health care. That is, you HAVE to become educated in and work within specific industries which generally pay really good money and offer that kind of insurance. After that, you have to ONLY work for employers who truly offer that kind of insurance which are very few and far between.

Your argument suggests that anyone who does not do that is not taking personal responsibility and does not deserve adequate health care. That is bullshit. You complain about freedom yet this is what you expect everyone to do? Not only is what you ask impossible because this country cannot survive if everyone limited themselves to working in those fields, but it is one of the most hypocritical things I have ever heard you argue about.

You are so obsessed with pointing fingers telling people to take what you consider personal responsibility and to be rid of what you consider to be a sense of entitlement that it has completely clouded your judgment.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Robor
Here they come... Empty suit, elitist, demagogue, racist, politician, etc, etc.

Why don't you go buy a divot tool you hippy elite

Text

 

[Vic]

I think Spidey also missed the fact that the article I posted earlier criticizing the current healthcare system was published by The Objective Standard, which is essentially the mouthpiece of the Ayn Rand Institute.

Spidey might call himself a libertarian, but he wouldn't know libertarianism if it bit him on the ass.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Xavier434
As soon as you can prove to me that there are enough jobs available out there which offer this kind of quality health insurance then we'll talk. Until then, you have the vast majority of America who is just going to sit smack, snicker, and shake their heads at you whether you like it or not.

You don't have to have a job to get health insurance. You don't have to have a job to get supplemental insurance. Why is this so difficult to understand? The manufacturing industry typically has outstanding benefits some of the best available so that's a pretty good amount of jobs out there.

So again, personal responsibility dictates that if one doesn't have adequate health coverage then they supplement it or get a different job or get a totally different plan. Personal responsibility means one should take an active role in their health insurance decisions and not hold out their hand.

These days, insurance is either not affordable or the quality is so god awful that the only reason to get it from a financial perspective is just in case you are in a position which is going to cost you tremendous amounts of money at a hospital and even then the odds of you going bankrupt is very high should something really bad happen. It makes more sense to just to save your money and pay for everything without insurance at all, but the problem with that is it can be a major financial burden if a family all of the sudden has to shell out tons of money for emergency health care. Even worse are the people who have pre-existing conditions which cost them tons of money every year, but they cannot get insured because why in the world would a health insurance company be around to provide insurance to sick people! Fuck them dude. It's such bullshit. The system is awful and it needs to be changed big time.

 

[AAjax]

Originally posted by: Zebo
don't hate him at all I think he's personable and very intelligent, genius level.

i dislike his views - particularly his racist rejection and stereotyping of his white family I read in Dreams. His failure to see blacks simply commit more crime rather than the system is corrupt as he claims. his wanting to enable the black community to be wards of the state even further with wealth redistribution rather than preaching hard work. the conspiratorail racist company he keeps and those ideals may translate into policy I fear. I don't trust him.

Shhhhh, no one is supposed to talk about that

 

[Zebo]

Vic

His UHC plans are too socialism. Anytime you give someone a benefit payed though taxes it's socialist socio-economic system. There will be tons who can't even pay premiums and don't work in addition to all the folks now already on Medicaid. I don't have a problem with UHC or socialism but lets call it what it is. Secondly the plan sucks keeping the whole HC bureaucracy of insurance companies thus keeping the expense - we need a single payer and caps (e.g rationing) to truly have realistic UHC success.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Kappo
Could this same statement be applied to the "changes" movement you guys are promoting so much?

And yes, it WILL change. The MINUTE people realize that they can vote themselves ways to be lazy instead of working, that is what will happen. We will have 2 options at some point :

1) No one works. We become a 3rd world country.
2) People start taking responsibility for their OWN problems, dealing with their OWN issues, and trying harder.

Im willing to wager that I DONATE (this is MY choice) more money, time and goods than you ever will in a lifetime. When I do things like that, I am making the choice to do so. Since you are apparently anti-freedom, I think this concept is escaping you. To bad our entire country was founded on the idea of freedom....

Who needs to move again?

AMEN.

I think those calling for the government to "fix" things and society to "band together" forget what this country was founded on. Freedom and liberty. Not communism and socialism. It's downright scary to see some of the posts in this thread and see how people really don't want to take responsibility and feel entitled. Scary.

This is why straight democracy doesn't work. 51% votes to take from the other 49%. There should be income and property ownership requirements to vote or give property owners supervoting powers.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: AAjax

Originally posted by: Zebo
don't hate him at all I think he's personable and very intelligent, genius level.

i dislike his views - particularly his racist rejection and stereotyping of his white family I read in Dreams. His failure to see blacks simply commit more crime rather than the system is corrupt as he claims. his wanting to enable the black community to be wards of the state even further with wealth redistribution rather than preaching hard work. the conspiratorail racist company he keeps and those ideals may translate into policy I fear. I don't trust him.

Shhhhh, no one is supposed to talk about that

Crime and poverty are directly related. This is proven scientific FACT. Blacks are more likely to be poor in America, therefore they commit more crime. It's not hard to figure out that hard work is only possible when one actually has the opportunity to work hard. Absent that, people will seek to survive how they must.
And the so-called "hard work" mantra in America only works within certain criteria, most of which punishes or rewards persons more for accidents of birth rather than any actual merit or hard work of their own. For example, if one's family is wealthy, one will most likely be able to coast right through without any actual "hard work" of their own. But if one's family is poor, then one will have to work very hard indeed and yet will still be very unlikely to achieve nearly as much reward, despite possibly/potentially greater merit.
The result is waste and cost, which is hindering our country economically.
The plan is to work towards a system which will reward persons more for their individual merit and ability and less for their accidents of birth. IOW, a freer market with a more level playing field. Unfortunately, this is under attack (cynically by some, unknowing by many) under guises of "wealth redistribution," "personal responsibility," flag-waving that our existing corporatist/family wealth system is a true free market, and other bullshit. The most cynical propaganda voice IMO is that of Rush Limbaugh, whose family's considerable wealth, power, and influence in Missouri comes from government appointments to federal judgeships going back 4 or more generations.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
As soon as you can prove to me that there are enough jobs available out there for every American which offers this kind of quality health insurance and covers the majority of the cost then we'll talk. Until then, you have the vast majority of America who is just going to sit smack, snicker, and shake their heads at you whether you like it or not.

Exactly. I worked for a place that had very good and affordable health insurance. After 18 1/2 years I got laid off (company downsize). My severance package was weak (2 months salary) and COBRA benefits were well more than I could afford. The job market was rough but I managed to find another job before my severance ran out. Unfortunately it was a small company and provided no health benefits. I worked it until I could find a similar paying job that did provide benefits. After 2 years there I got laid off again. This time I had another job on the back burner so I landed on my feet. In short, it's not always the lazy person who wants a handout lacking health insurance. I've been laid off 2x and never drawn unemployment but I did go about 18 months completely uninsured.

Originally posted by: spidey07
You don't have to have a job to get health insurance. You don't have to have a job to get supplemental insurance. Why is this so difficult to understand? The manufacturing industry typically has outstanding benefits some of the best available so that's a pretty good amount of jobs out there.

So again, personal responsibility dictates that if one doesn't have adequate health coverage then they supplement it or get a different job or get a totally different plan. Personal responsibility means one should take an active role in their health insurance decisions and not hold out their hand.

Yeah, you don't have to have a job to get insurance *IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT*. Have you checked into an individual policy lately? I was in the position to have to do it a few years ago. Any good coverage policy was well more than I could afford and any supplemental/catastrophic coverage was useless due to very high deductibles before they kicked in. I wound up going uninsured.

For you to say 'get a different job' is oversimplifying things. Not everyone can afford to live off of a manufacturing job salary or walk off one job and find another in an blink of an eye.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Kappo
Could this same statement be applied to the "changes" movement you guys are promoting so much?

And yes, it WILL change. The MINUTE people realize that they can vote themselves ways to be lazy instead of working, that is what will happen. We will have 2 options at some point :

1) No one works. We become a 3rd world country.
2) People start taking responsibility for their OWN problems, dealing with their OWN issues, and trying harder.

Im willing to wager that I DONATE (this is MY choice) more money, time and goods than you ever will in a lifetime. When I do things like that, I am making the choice to do so. Since you are apparently anti-freedom, I think this concept is escaping you. To bad our entire country was founded on the idea of freedom....

Who needs to move again?

AMEN.

I think those calling for the government to "fix" things and society to "band together" forget what this country was founded on. Freedom and liberty. Not communism and socialism. It's downright scary to see some of the posts in this thread and see how people really don't want to take responsibility and feel entitled. Scary.

This is why straight democracy doesn't work. 51% votes to take from the other 49%. There should be income and property ownership requirements to vote or give property owners supervoting powers.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Vic

His UHC plans are too socialism. Anytime you give someone a benefit payed though taxes it's socialist socio-economic system. There will be tons who can't even pay premiums and don't work in addition to all the folks now already on Medicaid. I don't have a problem with UHC or socialism but lets call it what it is. Secondly the plan sucks keeping the whole HC bureaucracy of insurance companies thus keeping the expense - we need a single payer and caps (e.g rationing) to truly have realistic UHC success.

First, if that is your notion of socialism, and you are opposed to it, then I suggest you stop driving on our public roads, using our public law enforcement services, courts, and so forth.

Your 2nd part contradicts your 1st. The idea is not to provide a socialist system, but a free market-oriented system readily available to all.


edit: the forums are jacked slow right now.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Kappo
Could this same statement be applied to the "changes" movement you guys are promoting so much?

And yes, it WILL change. The MINUTE people realize that they can vote themselves ways to be lazy instead of working, that is what will happen. We will have 2 options at some point :

1) No one works. We become a 3rd world country.
2) People start taking responsibility for their OWN problems, dealing with their OWN issues, and trying harder.

Im willing to wager that I DONATE (this is MY choice) more money, time and goods than you ever will in a lifetime. When I do things like that, I am making the choice to do so. Since you are apparently anti-freedom, I think this concept is escaping you. To bad our entire country was founded on the idea of freedom....

Who needs to move again?

AMEN.

I think those calling for the government to "fix" things and society to "band together" forget what this country was founded on. Freedom and liberty. Not communism and socialism. It's downright scary to see some of the posts in this thread and see how people really don't want to take responsibility and feel entitled. Scary.

This is why straight democracy doesn't work. 51% votes to take from the other 49%. There should be income and property ownership requirements to vote or give property owners supervoting powers.

Because slaves should only be counted as 3/5th of a person? :roll:

DIAF, fascist. If a person is to be taxed, then they get to vote. That's how this country was founded. Oversight of democracy occurs through the checks and balances of the rule of law, not the rule of privilege. Once again, that's how this country was founded, and that is the law as established in this country's Constitution.

edit: re your PM, Spidey, here is what you're supporting and calling libertarian/capitalism. The notion that poor people shouldn't even be allowed to vote. Nothing could be more contrary to basic libertarian/capitalist ideals.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
These days, insurance is either not affordable or the quality is so god awful that the only reason to get it from a financial perspective is just in case you are in a position which is going to cost you tremendous amounts of money at a hospital and even then the odds of you going bankrupt is very high should something really bad happen. It makes more sense to just to save your money and pay for everything without insurance at all, but the problem with that is it can be a major financial burden if a family all of the sudden has to shell out tons of money for emergency health care. Even worse are the people who have pre-existing conditions which cost them tons of money every year, but they cannot get insured because why in the world would a health insurance company be around to provide insurance to sick people! Fuck them dude. It's such bullshit. The system is awful and it needs to be changed big time.

Yep, that was my thinking when I couldn't find a job with decent benefits. Couldn't afford 'good' coverage and catastrophic coverage is useless unless you've got a lot of assets to protect. I went uninsured and paid for things out of pocket. Luckily I didn't have any major issues while I wasn't insured.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Kappo
Could this same statement be applied to the "changes" movement you guys are promoting so much?

And yes, it WILL change. The MINUTE people realize that they can vote themselves ways to be lazy instead of working, that is what will happen. We will have 2 options at some point :

1) No one works. We become a 3rd world country.
2) People start taking responsibility for their OWN problems, dealing with their OWN issues, and trying harder.

Im willing to wager that I DONATE (this is MY choice) more money, time and goods than you ever will in a lifetime. When I do things like that, I am making the choice to do so. Since you are apparently anti-freedom, I think this concept is escaping you. To bad our entire country was founded on the idea of freedom....

Who needs to move again?

AMEN.

I think those calling for the government to "fix" things and society to "band together" forget what this country was founded on. Freedom and liberty. Not communism and socialism. It's downright scary to see some of the posts in this thread and see how people really don't want to take responsibility and feel entitled. Scary.

This is why straight democracy doesn't work. 51% votes to take from the other 49%. There should be income and property ownership requirements to vote or give property owners supervoting powers.

wow dude you got some problems if you cant see perpetual wealth and privilege coming out of that kinda system.

i can't even imagine a scenario where original homesteaders would ever sell land to peasants like us, if homesteading was ever allowed in the first place.

 

[brencat]

I don't hate Obama at all -- just disagree with his policies, as I do with most of the liberal left. He seems like a decent man, but he's a deer in headlights and I worry he's going to get run over by foreign leaders like in Russia and China who are crafty statesmen. Thinking selfishly, I also don't want my taxes going (back) up either. Cut spending instead.

The Clintons on the other hand are a different story. Maybe not hate, but 'extreme dislike' is the more appropriate description. And if Obama is smart, he'll tell her in the nicest way possible to 'piss off' w/r/t the VP slot.

The healthcare system in this country is royally fubar. I'm not confident UHC is the way to go either because I don't want the rationing of care that happens in Canada and Europe and what ultimately happens when demand for care > supply of care. I also don't want illegals getting UHC under any circumstances. I'd be ready to try diverting the tax credit from employers to individuals so we can buy our own health care, but not unless other things were changed too -- such as allowing us to shop out of state/region for coverage. Every state has different rules and premiums vary widely because of it. No easy answers here.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Kappo
Could this same statement be applied to the "changes" movement you guys are promoting so much?

And yes, it WILL change. The MINUTE people realize that they can vote themselves ways to be lazy instead of working, that is what will happen. We will have 2 options at some point :

1) No one works. We become a 3rd world country.
2) People start taking responsibility for their OWN problems, dealing with their OWN issues, and trying harder.

Im willing to wager that I DONATE (this is MY choice) more money, time and goods than you ever will in a lifetime. When I do things like that, I am making the choice to do so. Since you are apparently anti-freedom, I think this concept is escaping you. To bad our entire country was founded on the idea of freedom....

Who needs to move again?

AMEN.

I think those calling for the government to "fix" things and society to "band together" forget what this country was founded on. Freedom and liberty. Not communism and socialism. It's downright scary to see some of the posts in this thread and see how people really don't want to take responsibility and feel entitled. Scary.

This is why straight democracy doesn't work. 51% votes to take from the other 49%. There should be income and property ownership requirements to vote or give property owners supervoting powers.

And to think, in America, YOU can vote. Oh the irony.