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WelshBloke said:
In what way are they both as valid when describing the physical existence of something?
In all walks of life where its important that things are true we don't rely on faith or belief.
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In the way we are speaking about, the belief in God. Shouldn't it be unique? God is beyond our frame of reference. Thought is real. Emotion is real.
 
WelshBloke said:
In what way are they both as valid when describing the physical existence of something?
In all walks of life where its important that things are true we don't rely on faith or belief.
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1 -- n what way are they both as valid when describing the physical existence of something?
That is where you are going astray. Talking about a physical, touch me, see me existence of God! but instead the word - something is used in place of the word - God!
2 - In all walks of life where its important that things are true we don't rely on faith or belief.
That statement in and of itself is not true! Implying that if you have to rely on faith or belief, then what ever you are relying on cannot possibly be true!!

As magnus stated above me -- In the way we are speaking about, the belief in God. Shouldn't it be unique? God is beyond our frame of reference. Thought is real. Emotion is real.
 
WelshBloke said:
You are both missing the point that I'm making.

I don't doubt your belief in god.
I don't doubt that your belief in god helps you.

But your belief in something doesn't make it real.

Kids believe in Santa. It helps them behave plus it makes them feel good. That doesn't mean that Santa is real.
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I would ask you to examine the history of the world, the civilizations that rose and fell, the cultures and, tell me again belief in something doesn't make it real.
 
MagnusTheBrewer said:
I would ask you to examine the history of the world, the civilizations that rose and fell, the cultures and, tell me again belief in something doesn't make it real.
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You'll have to explain how acting on the belief that something is real makes the thing real because I'm really not seeing that anywhere in history.
Unless you are arguing that the Egyptian pharaohs were actually living gods?
 
MagnusTheBrewer said:
Now you're just being obtuse. Many nations including the U.S. were founded on ideas.
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That's kinda my point. Ideas and beliefs aren't necessarily based on reality. I can completely agree with the position that god is an idea made up by humans, I just can't accept the position that god exists as any more than an idea with more (any) evidence!
 
WelshBloke said:
Well I think that this argument has been going on since at least the ancient Greeks so a couple of forum pages seems ok! 😉
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well im guessing the ancient greeks stopped when they realised they were rehashing the same old arguments*winks*
 
WelshBloke said:
That's kinda my point. Ideas and beliefs aren't necessarily based on reality. I can completely agree with the position that god is an idea made up by humans, I just can't accept the position that god exists as any more than an idea with more (any) evidence!
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The results of those thoughts and feeling are indeed real. I might also put it another way. I assume you believe there are people who know more the you on a given topic? So much so that their explanations can't even be followed to their conclusion because you don't have the knowledge or grasp of supporting schools of thought or language. You say but, I can find those who do that agree with the conclusions. I'm saying the enduring faith in God by billions of people indicates there is more to the story than what you can touch, see or prove logically.
 
MagnusTheBrewer said:
The results of those thoughts and feeling are indeed real.
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Indeed. As I said I wasn't disagreeing with that at all.

MagnusTheBrewer said:
I might also put it another way. I assume you believe there are people who know more the you on a given topic? So much so that their explanations can't even be followed to their conclusion because you don't have the knowledge or grasp of supporting schools of thought or language. You say but, I can find those who do that agree with the conclusions.
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Yes, I might not follow their explanations but I could fathom that there was something to be explained. With the concept of god there is nothing to be explained because there is no evidence of its existence or evidence of it affecting the physical realm.

MagnusTheBrewer said:
I'm saying the enduring faith in God by billions of people indicates there is more to the story than what you can touch, see or prove logically.
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That just shows that theres billions of people that have or had a faith in a supernatural being, it doesnt mean that that being exists.
 
WelshBloke said:
Indeed. As I said I wasn't disagreeing with that at all.


Yes, I might not follow their explanations but I could fathom that there was something to be explained. With the concept of god there is nothing to be explained because there is no evidence of its existence or evidence of it affecting the physical realm.
You just agreed that the effects of the thoughts and feelings of those who believe are real and tangible. From that point of view, does it matter if God exists or not?


That just shows that theres billions of people that have or had a faith in a supernatural being, it doesnt mean that that being exists.
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See above.
People in general are a contrary lot. For so many to believe in a higher being would suggest there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy.
 
MagnusTheBrewer said:
See above.
People in general are a contrary lot. For so many to believe in a higher being would suggest there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy.
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But your argument there is because people believe in something it must be true.
That is a dangerous philosophy.

Not to mention that hardly any of those people agree on what they believe in.
 
WelshBloke said:
But your argument there is because people believe in something it must be true.
That is a dangerous philosophy.

Not to mention that hardly any of those people agree on what they believe in.
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The concept of truth is a dangerous philosophy. As a believer, only God knows what truth is.
 
WelshBloke said:
But you're sidestepping truth. Belief and faith have nothing to do with truth, evidence however...
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Now you are sidestepping the truth of what those with belief and faith have had on the world. You can not separate truth from human society. At best it inspires, at worst it is irrelevant.
 
MagnusTheBrewer said:
Now you are sidestepping the truth of what those with belief and faith have had on the world.
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I'm not at all. All the way through this I've acknowledged what people with faith can achieve, and that their faith helps them do it. But that doesn't mean that what they have faith in exists!

MagnusTheBrewer said:
You can not separate truth from human society. At best it inspires, at worst it is irrelevant.
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I think that we must be using different meanings for truth and existence. Things exist regardless of whether we believe in them or not, and things that don't exist don't start to exist just because we start believing in them.
 
WelshBloke said:
I'm not at all. All the way through this I've acknowledged what people with faith can achieve, and that their faith helps them do it. But that doesn't mean that what they have faith in exists!



I think that we must be using different meanings for truth and existence. Things exist regardless of whether we believe in them or not, and things that don't exist don't start to exist just because we start believing in them.
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We are indeed using different meanings for truth and existence. Without God, we and all the other things in this world are irrelevant.
 
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