Whats the 4000 series bring to the table and when

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: apoppin

I'm no fanboy. I just state the facts.

RotFL

:lips:

Truly, my definition of a fanboy is someone who ignores the the performance and price, and benchmarks and swears it's still competitive.
I don't think I qualify.:roll:

If I do show me where the benchmarks,price, performance is in ati's favor at this time.

Like I said unless there is an answer from ati with a 3850/70 refresh before the 4000 series, we all will pay more for higher performance for the next 5/6 months.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: happy medium

Originally posted by: apoppin

I'm no fanboy. I just state the facts.

RotFL

:lips:

Truly, my definition of a fanboy is someone who ignores the the performance and price, and benchmarks and swears it's still competitive.
I don't think I qualify.:roll:

If I do show me where the benchmarks,price, performance is in ati's favor at this time.

Like I said unless there is an answer from ati with a 3850/70 refresh before the 4000 series, we all will pay more for higher performance for the next 5/6 months.

you misunderstand me ...

i was especially laughing at the 2nd part ...

sorry i wasn't more specific; let me try again

I just state the facts.

.. it isn't quite so funny the 2nd time - after i had to explain it

:roll:

Your entire premise is *speculation*
- What "facts" ?


... and unless you make the move to PCIe, your only chance for higher performance is AMD and i doubt if you will pay "more" even though there is no competition from nvidia in AGP

 

[happy medium]

Oh, I see. I'm in the middle of a new system. Just waiting for the Q9450 Penryn and for 9800 series cards to surface to make a decision. They are both due out at the end of the month. Crysis made me make the upgrade. I had this system for 6 years!

 

[Demoth]

You forgetting one major advantage for ATI. The ability to mix and match cards in X-Fire is huge. If I was to buy a 3870 now for $189, yes I would be paying a bit more then for the 9600 GT for the same performance.

However, initial reports are showing the 3870 already adds a huge amount of power to a 3870 X2 in an optimized game.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/671/1/

Now, combine that with the fact that X-Fire should work fine between generations as some 2XXX and 3XXX cards can already work. That 3870 you bought now could be a major contributer to a 4870 or 4870 X2 by this summer.

Nvidia options limit you to identicle cards right now. If it was possible to mix and match all the 8800s and the 9600GT, the story would be different.

And, right as the 48XX cards are coming out, hopefully around summer, a few X38 boards should be in the $100 range.

Everything pretty much hinges on how good the 4800s will be, but rumored specs show a card with two times the number of TMUs, something that would vastly improve this architecture and a general 50% increase in performance with an even lower power draw.

http://www.nordichardware.com/news,7356.html

 

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: happy medium

Originally posted by: jaredpace
i think he's just asking for info on the RV770 4870 and 4870x2. check that other topic about gx2 vs. gtx vs. x2

More or less correct.

Usually a refresh means cheaper to manufacture correct?
I don't see price being much of a factor,when the 9600gt proves the refresh gives more performance for less money. For 151.00$ last I checked the 9600gt is dam close to 3870 performance. Now the 8800gt is going for around 210$ and drops every week or so, and allready beats a 3870. The 8800gs is 130.00$ or so last I checked and also puts a woopen on the 3850.

If the 9800gx2 is priced anywhere (which I believe it will) near the 3870x2, in 2 short weeks it will hold the top spot.
This seem to be the only win ati/amd has at this point.

As far as the low end is concerned (which dosen't really interest me), Prices and performance are about equal to the 8600gt/gts with the introduction of the 3650,and 3450.
I'm sure the 9600gs,9500gtand,9500gs will change that too.


I don't need benchmarks for any of the above. It's either already a fact or pure common sense!

As far as the 9800gt,9800gtx is concerned it's just icing on the cake since Nvidia allready dominates in all price points and performance now!

I see ATI's strong point is being able to crossfire different cards and having better cheaper motherboards for crossfire.
Mabe the nforce 790i will change this?

Don't get me wrong I want competition, but IMHO right now there is none. I was posting to see if there are some 3855 or 3875 card in the works to bring Ati up to par with Nvidia? Kinda like the 1900xt refreshed to a 1950xtx or a 3850pro model? If ATI waits for the 4000 series it's gonna be a slaughter for the next 5/6 months!
By this time the real next generation nvidia card will be close to release.

What do you guys think?

Edit : the link was just Nvidia's early 2008 line up.

9800gx2
9800gtx
9800gt
9600gt
9600gs
9500gt
9500gs

I did state this.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: happy medium
Oh, I see. I'm in the middle of a new system. Just waiting for the Q9450 Penryn and for 9800 series cards to surface to make a decision. They are both due out at the end of the month. Crysis made me make the upgrade. I had this system for 6 years!

Q9450 is due this month?
:Q

isn't it supposed to be $expensive$
- and i guess i am not keeping up, what is it's advantage over the current Wolfdales? i think i can use a Penryn also in my MB

and ... sorry for the detour

i am more inclined to say "wait and See" ... i think way too many of your pronouncements depend on unreleased product.

 

[Demoth]

"I did state this. "

-----------------------------------------------


You stated it, but I further expanded upon it to answer your question. ATI has put their future into Crossfire. Their single cards might not be winning head to head price versus performance, but the option to use that card in future configurations tips the choice to it's favor by some. If the 4800 series is near as powerful as rumored, this option may be icing on the cake for ATI.

 

[toslat]

IMHO
I think the key factor in all of this is the 55nm vs 65nm. The move to 55nm was a brave move by AMD/ATI (cant imagine what would have happened if they had had yield problems with the 38xx) and is turning out to be a master stroke. The smaller node gives them an advantage in cost, die size and heat which in turn lets them increase function units and integrate dual GPU on same PCB with ease. They have also developed the R600 series (and most likely the R700 and R800)) with a very modular architecture which coupled with the earlier factors give them quite a scalable platform i.e. they can provide products at all performance categories by developing a single core and then scale performance by trimming down or integrating multiples on same or different PCB.

One criterion required for this approach to succeed is for multiGPU performance - Xfire to scale well. Enter their unlikely savior - Intel. With the dominance of Intel CPU/Chipset in the market, and their support of xfire (with PCIe 2.0 & 3.0 taking care of bandwidth issues), ATi have the user base/feedback source to improve the scaling of their platform. Add in the ability to xfire across generations, which gives an inertia effect (also leads to higher second hand value and higher demand) and ATi have the pebble that could start an avalanche. (Its ironic that while Intel is killing the cpu arm of AMD, they are actually the key to the success of the discrete graphics side)

Looking forward, if AMD pulls through this rough patch, I see them leveraging the cpu node shrink experiences on the GPU side which will put further pressure on Nvidia

Unless Nvidia go to <=55nm or license SLi to Intel (I don't see Nvidia dominating the chipset market), I believe ATi will lose the battle but they will surely win the war!


and if ATi wins the battle then ..........?

 

[Demoth]

I think Intel has a legitamite fear Nvidia will start implementing features on their vid cards that will require a MB with an Nvidia chipset. If their cards are uncontested winners, few gamers would be buying any Intel boards. The initial reports of the 9600GT upclocking itself on Nvidia chipsets was likely being watched closely by Intel exects.

Of course, Intel also has to try and play nice with AMD until these nasty law suits, potentially amounting to half of Intel's networth, are settled.

 

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: happy medium
Oh, I see. I'm in the middle of a new system. Just waiting for the Q9450 Penryn and for 9800 series cards to surface to make a decision. They are both due out at the end of the month. Crysis made me make the upgrade. I had this system for 6 years!

Q9450 is due this month?
:Q

isn't it supposed to be $expensive$
- and i guess i am not keeping up, what is it's advantage over the current Wolfdales? i think i can use a Penryn also in my MB

and ... sorry for the detour

i am more inclined to say "wait and See" ... i think way too many of your pronouncements depend on unreleased product.

I read its gonna retail for 320.00$ or so at first.
I also heard it's supposed to be a monster overclocker like the e8500.
4+ ghz anyone? Oh yea!

 

[toslat]

Originally posted by: Demoth
I think Intel has a legitamite fear Nvidia will start implementing features on their vid cards that will require a MB with an Nvidia chipset. If their cards are uncontested winners, few gamers would be buying any Intel boards. The initial reports of the 9600GT upclocking itself on Nvidia chipsets was likely being watched closely by Intel exects.

Of course, Intel also has to try and play nice with ATI until these nasty law suits, potentially amounting to half of Intel's networth, are settled.

I don't think Intel has anything to fear from Nvidia implementing such features. History has proven that consumers do not like being constrained in their choices. I think such moves will harm Nvidia more than any good it might offer.

The only thing that Nvidia might try is to provide an overall cheaper platform. This is also difficult giving that they trail both Intel and AMD in node size, in the chipset and graphics department

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: happy medium

I read its gonna retail for 320.00$ or so at first.
I also heard it's supposed to be a monster overclocker like the e8500.
4+ ghz anyone? Oh yea!

LOL.

How are you going to get 4 GHz when there are no motherboards that can handle over ~ 450-475 MHz FSB stably with quads? :laugh:

8x450 = 3600 MHz, anything more is going to involve lots of luck, tweaking, & voltage.

And as for price, i'd expect the Q9450 to sell for well over MSRP for the first while.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: NinjaJedi
I think ATI has 3 things going for them right now that NV does not.
1. The expertise of AMD in driver development.
2. The ability to miss match cards for xfire.
3. Multiple monitor support in xfire.

#1 AMD has no experience in video driver development.

#2 The ability to mix cards is a bittersweet victory, because you wouldn't really want to. The slower card doesn't magically become faster, it still has to render every other frame. The faster card's multi GPU potential is diminished by pairing it with a slower card. The only exception to this would be the 3870X2 + a 3870.

#3 This is an advantage, but for people like me with only one monitor, not an issue.

 

[toslat]

Originally posted by: nRollo

#2 The ability to mix cards is a bittersweet victory, because you wouldn't really want to. The slower card doesn't magically become faster, it still has to render every other frame. The faster card's multi GPU potential is diminished by pairing it with a slower card. The only exception to this would be the 3870X2 + a 3870.

That assumes equal load balancing between the cards. Wht happens if I decide to load balance based on card speed i.e sending m frames to card 1 and n frames to card 2, where m:n reflects the performance difference between both cards.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: toslat

Originally posted by: Demoth
I think Intel has a legitamite fear Nvidia will start implementing features on their vid cards that will require a MB with an Nvidia chipset. If their cards are uncontested winners, few gamers would be buying any Intel boards. The initial reports of the 9600GT upclocking itself on Nvidia chipsets was likely being watched closely by Intel exects.

Of course, Intel also has to try and play nice with ATI until these nasty law suits, potentially amounting to half of Intel's networth, are settled.

I don't think Intel has anything to fear from Nvidia implementing such features. History has proven that consumers do not like being constrained in their choices. I think such moves will harm Nvidia more than any good it might offer.

The only thing that Nvidia might try is to provide an overall cheaper platform. This is also difficult giving that they trail both Intel and AMD in node size, in the chipset and graphics department

All Intel has to do to counter that is deny Nvidia the license for Nehalem unless they open their chipsets. Problem resolved.

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: NinjaJedi
I think ATI has 3 things going for them right now that NV does not.
1. The expertise of AMD in driver development.
2. The ability to miss match cards for xfire.
3. Multiple monitor support in xfire.

#1 AMD has no experience in video driver development.

#2 The ability to mix cards is a bittersweet victory, because you wouldn't really want to. The slower card doesn't magically become faster, it still has to render every other frame. The faster card's multi GPU potential is diminished by pairing it with a slower card. The only exception to this would be the 3870X2 + a 3870.

#3 This is an advantage, but for people like me with only one monitor, not an issue.

1. Don't spread around lies please.
I can bring up tons of nV driver issues that make me question nVidia's abilities to even write drivers, nevermind make good drivers.
Or issues that they haven't fixed after years (UT2k4 issues still anyone :roll

2. This is indeed a large benefit, not even so much because people would want to, but because they can.
The awesome thing about SLI is that by the time you want to add a second card, it's discontinued, & either impossible to find, or grossly overpriced due to the market for the card dying. :roll:
At least with Crossfire, flexibility exists.

3. This is an enormous benefit, since high end user/gamers often have more than one display.

SLI has really only one thing going for it: slightly better driver support out of the box for newer games.

Otherwise, it's riddled with drawbacks, one of the present large ones being that fact it's tied to an inferior overpriced/underperforming chipset platform that no one really wants.

Fortunately, Intel might be able to play nV's own game later this year & not allow them to make chipsets for Nehalem, which would be a lovely reversal in greed, & might help push nV unlock their drivers so we can run SLI on the chipsets we'd like to

 

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: n7

Originally posted by: happy medium

I read its gonna retail for 320.00$ or so at first.
I also heard it's supposed to be a monster overclocker like the e8500.
4+ ghz anyone? Oh yea!

LOL.

How are you going to get 4 GHz when there are no motherboards that can handle over ~ 450-475 MHz FSB stably with quads? :laugh:

8x450 = 3600 MHz, anything more is going to involve lots of luck, tweaking, & voltage.

And as for price, i'd expect the Q9450 to sell for well over MSRP for the first while.

I see x35/x38 chipsets hitting 485fsb with quads. I was hoping the x48's and 790i chipsets would achieve 500+fsb easily . I don't see why not?
If at all the q9450 will run much cooler and hopfully with less voltage.
Just have to wait and see. I waited this long whats another month.

This guy Tenax over in the cpu overclocking forum has one and is testing now!

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2160659&enterthread=y

He got it to 473 fsb with beta bios and a abit ip35 pro. The Q9450 only needed 1.32 volts. Nice ha.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: happy medium

Originally posted by: n7

Originally posted by: happy medium

I read its gonna retail for 320.00$ or so at first.
I also heard it's supposed to be a monster overclocker like the e8500.
4+ ghz anyone? Oh yea!

LOL.

How are you going to get 4 GHz when there are no motherboards that can handle over ~ 450-475 MHz FSB stably with quads? :laugh:

8x450 = 3600 MHz, anything more is going to involve lots of luck, tweaking, & voltage.

And as for price, i'd expect the Q9450 to sell for well over MSRP for the first while.

I see x35/x38 chipsets hitting 485fsb with quads. I was hoping the x48's and 790i chipsets would achieve 500+fsb easily . I don't see why not?
If at all the q9450 will run much cooler and hopfully with less voltage.
Just have to wait and see. I waited this long whats another month.

I'm also hoping for high fsb capability for P35 (not x35) mobos since I'm also shooting for a 9450, but I would be VERY surprised to get over 475 24/7 stable, even at high vcore. of course, I only run my e6750 at 8x425, so anything over that on a penryn quad would be great Let's just say that my expectations have been mitigated by experience.

 

[happy medium]

This guy Tenax over in the cpu overclocking forum has one and is testing now!

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2160659&enterthread=y

He got it to 473 fsb with beta bios and a abit ip35 pro. The Q9450 only needed 1.32 volts. Nice ha.
[/quote]

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: n7
1. Don't spread around lies please.
I can bring up tons of nV driver issues that make me question nVidia's abilities to even write drivers, nevermind make good drivers.
Or issues that they haven't fixed after years (UT2k4 issues still anyone :roll

2. This is indeed a large benefit, not even so much because people would want to, but because they can.
The awesome thing about SLI is that by the time you want to add a second card, it's discontinued, & either impossible to find, or grossly overpriced due to the market for the card dying. :roll:
At least with Crossfire, flexibility exists.

3. This is an enormous benefit, since high end user/gamers often have more than one display.

SLI has really only one thing going for it: slightly better driver support out of the box for newer games.

Otherwise, it's riddled with drawbacks, one of the present large ones being that fact it's tied to an inferior overpriced/underperforming chipset platform that no one really wants.

Fortunately, Intel might be able to play nV's own game later this year & not allow them to make chipsets for Nehalem, which would be a lovely reversal in greed, & might help push nV unlock their drivers so we can run SLI on the chipsets we'd like to

#1 Where did AMD get this expertise in writing video drivers n7? Was it in writing drivers for their CPUs? The few motherboard chipsets they've done? The appliance chips they make? I'm unaware of the reknowned graphics drivers they made prior to buying ATi- please link and elaborate!

As far as driver issues go, gasp, computer gaming isn't like consoles. I could point out old ATi driver issues too, and link you to articles that say NVIDIA's Vista drivers are better- but who cares? Driver issues are part of PC gaming and will always be.

#2 The ability to do something you wouldn't want to is bittersweet, like I said. As far as "finding cards to SLi with", they're not exactly "rare" as NVIDIA has had most of the DX9 market for years. Also, buying an old GPU to multi card with another old one has to be a pretty special set of circumstances to be a smart thing to do. The second card has to be cheap, and often new cards have come out by then offering SLi/CF level performance on every game with no drawbacks.
We both know the only bulletproof argument for multicard is to get performance you can't with one.

#3 It's an advantage only to those who do, and it's not like you can't just turn SLi off and on when you need a second monitor, or run a cheap 3rd card to drive that monitor.

SLIGHTLY better driver support out of the box?

http://www.firingsquad.com/har...mance_update/page9.asp

Unfortunately, CrossFire compatibility is still an issue for AMD. New games like BioShock and World in Conflict don't support CrossFire at this time, and Lost Planet and Quake Wars have graphical glitches.

I don't think DX10 Crysis is supported by CF yet!

Another big disadvantage for CF is you can't force SFR on it- so if default AFR doesn't work, you're out of luck.

 

[Extelleron]

Unfortunately, CrossFire compatibility is still an issue for AMD. New games like BioShock and World in Conflict don't support CrossFire at this time, and Lost Planet and Quake Wars have graphical glitches.

Why are you linking to old benchmarks performed close to 1/2 a year ago?

Crossfire scales very well in Bioshock & World in Conflict:

BIOSHOCK 2560x1600
AMD HD 3870 X2: 58.1
AMD HD 3870: 38.2
3870 X2 = 1.52X 3870

WORLD IN CONFLICT 2560x1600
AMD HD 3870 X2: 30
AMD HD 3870: 18
3870 X2 = 1.67X 3870

Crossfire scales under Crysis DX10, as seen in the Firingsquad preview from back in January. None of the cards are playable, but the 3870 X2 is up to 79% faster than a single 3870.

AMD has inherited ATI's driver team, which now produces very good drivers that are just as good as nVidia's. The nice thing about AMD is that you know a driver is coming once a month, with nVidia, beta drivers appear randomly and often the names are misleading and confusing.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nRollo

SLIGHTLY better driver support out of the box?

http://www.firingsquad.com/har...mance_update/page9.asp

Unfortunately, CrossFire compatibility is still an issue for AMD. New games like BioShock and World in Conflict don't support CrossFire at this time, and Lost Planet and Quake Wars have graphical glitches.

I don't think DX10 Crysis is supported by CF yet!

Another big disadvantage for CF is you can't force SFR on it- so if default AFR doesn't work, you're out of luck.

it appears to me that AMD has implemented AFR slightly differently with the latest drivers. i appear to suffer much less penalty with a "lesser card" as my 2nd card then i should be getting if it were strictly AFR. I am also getting better results with Cat 8.2 than with earlier drivers ... but that may not be the sole reason.

At any rate, ANY quote you make is outdated by the next driver set that AMD releases. It is rare in my experience to have to wait 2 entire months to get "playable" on ANY game ... and often nvidia will ALSO have issues with the same game that will take a long time to resolve.

i believe that Crysis DOES scale in DX10 - it does on my rig ... but not so well in Vista 64 as Vista 32. ... and ...
... hang on a little while - it will scale better. Of course, Crysis doesn't run well on ANY rig at DX10's "very high" - not even your Tri-Sli






[/quote]

 

[Tempered81]

Originally posted by: n7

Originally posted by: happy medium

I read its gonna retail for 320.00$ or so at first.
I also heard it's supposed to be a monster overclocker like the e8500.
4+ ghz anyone? Oh yea!

LOL.

How are you going to get 4 GHz when there are no motherboards that can handle over ~ 450-475 MHz FSB stably with quads? :laugh:

8x450 = 3600 MHz, anything more is going to involve lots of luck, tweaking, & voltage.

And as for price, i'd expect the Q9450 to sell for well over MSRP for the first while.

yup. I call 3600-3800 maximum on these chips.

 

[bryanW1995]

#2 The ability to do something you wouldn't want to is bittersweet, like I said. As far as "finding cards to SLi with", they're not exactly "rare" as NVIDIA has had most of the DX9 market for years. Also, buying an old GPU to multi card with another old one has to be a pretty special set of circumstances to be a smart thing to do. The second card has to be cheap, and often new cards have come out by then offering SLi/CF level performance on every game with no drawbacks.
We both know the only bulletproof argument for multicard is to get performance you can't with one.

yes, but with nvidia you're forced to use the SAME EXACT card for sli. If you bought, say, an 8800gts 512 last year for ~$300 and you want to sli it in 6 mos instead of enduring the potentially interminable wait for gt200, you will have to shell out probably ~ $200 to do it. If you bought a 2900xt for, uh, I dunno, say $320 or so with orange box you can xfire it with a $150 2900pro 256 bit right now. Who do we know who did that on a p35 mobo to great effect? I'm sure he'll be here in a minute. More to the point for current graphics, I bought a 3870 in november. If in 6 mos I decide that I need a gpu upgrade, I will be able to spend $100-$125 to get a 3850 and do the "apoppin xfire" thing. based on nvidia's past record, I don't think that an 8800gts 512 will EVER get down to $150, much less 100-125. You'll be stuck paying a higher % of the original cost or buying a used card of questionable quality/durability.

 

[Giacomo]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
If you bought a 2900xt for, uh, I dunno, say $320 or so with orange box you can xfire it with a $150 2900pro 256 bit right now.

Or even better and more actual: if you buy a pricey HD3870 X2 today, and you fall in love with a 4870 in Summer, you don't have to say goodbye to your beautiful and still powerful card: you buy the 4870, stick it togethet with the 3870 X2, and enjoy like crazy.

It's not only about FPS, it's about satisfaction and having respect for your money too.

Giacomo