dahunan
Lifer
- Jan 10, 2002
- 18,191
- 3
- 0
The entire situation started because Grant and his buddies decided it was okay to fight in public with another group. For a guy on parole after being released from prison a few months ago IMHO that was a horrible decision to make in his life. A decision which lead to a chain of events which concluded with his ultimate death via accidental use of a firearm by a BART PD officer.
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,143
- 10
- 81
should he have got in a fight? no. is he directly responbsible for getting shot? no.
100% of the blame is in the poorly trained officer.
Arguments beginning with 'the entire situation started...' are usually bad, minimizing the issue under discussion to make the only issue the earlier background one.
What is this were you being shot unjustifiably by a police officer who had pulled you over for speeding? Would you want to hear how 'the situation was started by you speeding'?
None of your comments change the situation. These young thugs are acting terribly and criminally, that doesn't change the issue of the officer mistaking his gun and taser. The fact he'd been criminal before and was on parole is very bad for him, but doesn't change the issue of the officer mistaking his gun and taser. Instead, it just sort of implies 'oh this was a parolee, so dehumanize him and it's not that big a deal'.
No one's arguing that I've seen against the behavior of Grant and his criminal friends being bad and wrong, or that it's not a very good thing the police were arresting them.
You know, Miranda rights were invented for a guy named Miranda - who was legitimately a nasty criminal.
But you don't say "I'm not going to be concerned about violating his rights now that I found out he's a nasty criminal". Two separate issues.
No one is nominating Grant for citizen of the year for you to debunk that. He was a criminal being arrested. The notable issue is the lethal police mistake.
The rest is irrelevant to that - except to imply excusing it.
Let me know where I've said that Mehserle was not responsible for his actions because I am pretty sure I've mentioned that he is responsible for involuntary manslaughter.
Yet the point stills stands that this entire situation was predicated on the actions which resulted in the need to call BART PD to respond to a on going brawl on a BART train. Mehserle is guilty of making an error in judgment/action (muscle memorization failed him) which lead to Grant's death. BART is guilty of not enforcing and ensuring that adequate measures were taken to train their officers after issuing them tasers just 1 month prior to this incident.
Yet Mehserle and the BART PD officers had every right to investigate and apprehend those who were fighting on that train. So was it incumbent on Grant and his friends to cooperate (this does not mean admitting guilt or any other knee jerk silly notions) with the BART PD officers when they were detained?
HELL YES
Had he (Grant) done so without resiting then there would not of been a need to arrest him, and no need to try to restrain him (even if the BART PD did see a recourse to arrest him) and thus a need to attempt to pull out a taser by Mehserle (which tragically resulted in Mehserle making a horrible mistake). Again for a guy on parole he made some bad choices which lead to a series of events that ultimately lead to the loss of his own life due to another persons error.
As stated before Grant his friends could of completely avoided this entire situation on many levels all of which could of lead to a better outcome then what occurred. The chain of avoidable errors which lead to this incident was a long one indeed which is the point that I am making but if you don't understand the meaning of this statement then you probably haven't ridden a motorcycle or understand the notion of being proactive against accidents or avoiding situations which can inevitably lead to disaster in one's life.
Actually, it does change the situation.
People make mistakes during stressful situations. We know this definitively. Even well-trained people can and do make mistakes under stressful situations, particularly when they are surrounded by a climate of hostility or feel threatened (there were dozens of hostile on-lookers shouting obscenities at the officers). There's no disputing this.
You can't train the chance of making a mistake out of people. The purpose of training is merely to reduce it, not to eliminate it. Training does not make people robots without emotions or adrenaline.
The police were there acting in the public interest on a legitimate complain/report of violent confrontations. They were there protecting the public and doing their job.
Grant was there being the kind of person from whom the public wants and needs the protection of the police. A thug and criminal. It was Grant who caused Grant to be placed in that situation for his own selfish and antisocial purposes.
Grant had all the power to avoid this situation but for his own antisocial activities and motives. The police were duty bound to be there doing their job in the public interest.
That makes all the difference in the world. Its like saying "I stole your car and the wheel fell off while I was fleeing because you failed to tighten the lug nuts after changing the tire. I was injured during the crash and its your fault. Pay me money."
Really? So your argument is that it doesn't matter that you were STEALING my car? The only thing that matters is that I didn't tighten the lug nuts after changing the tire, as though I had given you permission to drive the car?
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For those of you who say this was an accident- if you have seen the video, you would've seen 2 guys with their bodies on Grant when none of the other detainees were doing anything. Of course Mersehle will say he is reaching for his pocket for God knows what. All cops do that to cover their asses. At which point was it necessary to even fathom the thought of pulling out a taser to subdue someone who is already subdued?
In any case, I was not on the jury. I don't know what kind of evidence the prosecution/defense presented. I would agree with the posters who said this was an accident based on the online videos, because I don't think the prosecution had proven *beyond a reasonable doubt* that Mersehle had the intent to kill Grant. I probably would've convicted him of voluntary manslaughter. If Mersehle has had prior records mistreating minorities, I would've had no problem convicting him of murder and watch his ass fry in prison for 20 years.
With that said, I truly believe that this does nothing good for the race relations in California (or the entire nation for that matter). They'll probably riot in Oakland tonight, and to be honest I don't really blame them. It was a jury with NO blacks. The trial should NEVER have been moved to LA. What kind of message does this send to the black community? I would not fault them for bringing emotion into this, as they see it from a slightly different spectrum than me (I'm Asian). Would a black juror have convicted him of murder?
In any case, I was not on the jury. I don't know what kind of evidence the prosecution/defense presented. I would agree with the posters who said this was an accident based on the online videos, because I don't think the prosecution had proven *beyond a reasonable doubt* that Mersehle had the intent to kill Grant. I probably would've convicted him of voluntary manslaughter. If Mersehle has had prior records mistreating minorities, I would've had no problem convicting him of murder and watch his ass fry in prison for 20 years.
With that said, I truly believe that this does nothing good for the race relations in California (or the entire nation for that matter). They'll probably riot in Oakland tonight, and to be honest I don't really blame them. It was a jury with NO blacks. The trial should NEVER have been moved to LA. What kind of message does this send to the black community? I would not fault them for bringing emotion into this, as they see it from a slightly different spectrum than me (I'm Asian). Would a black juror have convicted him of murder?
Some people just need killing. This guy was a repeat offender. Goodbye.
Looks like he was refusing to cooperate with the officers requests for compliance. a good way to end up dead.
Looks like he was refusing to cooperate with the officers requests for compliance. a good way to end up dead.
SSSnail
Lifer
- Nov 29, 2006
- 17,458
- 83
- 86
Let's look at it this way...
By the show of hands, how many of you have been in prison? How many of you were recently released from jail? How many of you were on parole? How many of you would like to be involved in altercations that would results in you being faced down on the pavement? How many of you would try to resist arrests? (I'm not even asking other pertinent questions surrounding the life and choices of the person that was shot).
If you can answer all of those questions, then you know where I'm going with them.
It's all kind of funny watching the disappointment of the people waiting for free loots from rioting.
But, if I was on the jury, I would have acquitted the cop.
The best quote from all of this? "... we should get the United Nations to investigate this..."
By the show of hands, how many of you have been in prison? How many of you were recently released from jail? How many of you were on parole? How many of you would like to be involved in altercations that would results in you being faced down on the pavement? How many of you would try to resist arrests? (I'm not even asking other pertinent questions surrounding the life and choices of the person that was shot).
If you can answer all of those questions, then you know where I'm going with them.
It's all kind of funny watching the disappointment of the people waiting for free loots from rioting.
But, if I was on the jury, I would have acquitted the cop.
The best quote from all of this? "... we should get the United Nations to investigate this..."
I think we should just start executing 3peat offenders who are getting life in jail anyways. It'd save a ton of money. Plus it really sends that nice warm fuzzing.
DON'T BE A FUCKING DICK
message home like no other.
DON'T BE A FUCKING DICK
message home like no other.
It was NEVER disputed, not even by the prosecution, that Grant was in fact resisting or at least being uncooperative/noncompliant with the officers' instructions. The notion that Grant wasn't resisting at all is the 'street' version of the events that does not mesh with multiple videos of the moments leading up to Mersehle announcing his intention to use his tazer on Grant.
No, he wasn't throwing punches or lunging for Mersehle's gun. There are more subtle ways of resisting than doing cartwheels and spin kicks, such as posing resistance when an officer tries to pull your arm out from under you in order to place it behind your back, to handcuff you.
If you also try to cram your hand into your waist or pocket while doing this, whether its in an attempt to get rid of a bag of dope by tossing it into the weeds or just to anchor your hand to create more resistance, don't be surprised if you get a few whacks to the arm or elbow from a nightstick, flashlight, get sprayed with mace/pepper spray or tazed (which is what Mersehle intended to do).
Its kind of sad. A black life ain't worth 10 cent in the eyes of so many of the AT faithful. All these comments about this guy about what he did, the black community, and etc. Nothing this guy did warranted him being shot in the back. Nothing at all. This wasn't karma or payback or any of that other nonsense.
This was a guy who could have and should have been handcuffed and sent back to jail if need be. That should have been the end result. But instead we have the same ole tired story of circumstances and excuses, but the story ends the same another black guy ends up dead. Its pathetic to read some of the posts cheering and laughing. He may been a lot things both good and bad, but on this day he didn't deserve to die.
But one day the majority will be the minority. One day its going to be alright..........
This was a guy who could have and should have been handcuffed and sent back to jail if need be. That should have been the end result. But instead we have the same ole tired story of circumstances and excuses, but the story ends the same another black guy ends up dead. Its pathetic to read some of the posts cheering and laughing. He may been a lot things both good and bad, but on this day he didn't deserve to die.
But one day the majority will be the minority. One day its going to be alright..........
well he did use a shell that cost about $0.45.
so it was worth at least that much.
His life was worthless becuase he continuely made bad choices.
Thats not the officers fualt.
What you want reperations ?
so it was worth at least that much.
His life was worthless becuase he continuely made bad choices.
Thats not the officers fualt.
What you want reperations ?
hahaha! There have been a few incidents where WHITE people were shot by officers who mistakenly pulled their firearm instead of their taser.
But we don't hear about those in the national news for days on end because....you and everyone else damn well knows why. Squeaky wheel gets the oil!
hehehehehehe
You are full of jokes. But oh in about another 15 years or so, wonder how many jokes you'll have then? Reparartions? Nah, bigger goals than that
waggy
No Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 68,143
- 10
- 81
you are right. that is not the officers fault. what is the officers fault is he killed a man. far worse then a couple petty crimes i would say.
SSSnail
Lifer
- Nov 29, 2006
- 17,458
- 83
- 86
free 50" flat screens?hehehehehehe
You are full of jokes. But oh in about another 15 years or so, wonder how many jokes you'll have then? Reparartions? Nah, bigger goals than that
I don't tend to slander minoritys much as I grew up in a pretty black neighborhood. I do still get a ghetto pass having grown up near laffeyette courts in baltimore city.
but I will say this.
anytime the _______ "not the hardworking middle class black familys that live in my area"
_______wanna start a race war in this country. you go right ahead.
cuase for every "brown,purple.white,yellow,green,pink" ______ you can find
there will 90 decent hardworking people to put you fucking assholes right in the dirt where you belong.
You go ahead and pick that fight. You can't win it.
your
out numbered and out armed.
the people who will be killing you don't like you becuase of your skin color.
to me its all about your FUCKED UP ATTITUDE
Nobody owes you shit.
sure would be nice to be done with your fucking assholes and your you owe me attitude of self entitlement. Pick that fight.
but I will say this.
anytime the _______ "not the hardworking middle class black familys that live in my area"
_______wanna start a race war in this country. you go right ahead.
cuase for every "brown,purple.white,yellow,green,pink" ______ you can find
there will 90 decent hardworking people to put you fucking assholes right in the dirt where you belong.
You go ahead and pick that fight. You can't win it.
your
out numbered and out armed.
the people who will be killing you don't like you becuase of your skin color.
to me its all about your FUCKED UP ATTITUDE
Nobody owes you shit.
sure would be nice to be done with your fucking assholes and your you owe me attitude of self entitlement. Pick that fight.
hehehehehehe
You are full of jokes. But oh in about another 15 years or so, wonder how many jokes you'll have then? Reparartions? Nah, bigger goals than that
They want 5 trillion or something rediculous last I looked in reperations. Some of the more extreme groups were asking for it. I think they should take up any issue they have with the east africans who sold them to the slave traders. Slavery Starts at the point of origin.
glad we aren't doing that anymore was never right. they should be happy to live here though. Ol Lincoln hated blacks and wanted to ship all of them back to Africa.
I am very tired though of the minority of Blacks fucking it up for the rest of the community.
Bill Cosby is right.
They were mentioned at trial by an expert witness who had documented prior incidents and also mentioned by a number of media reports/articles about this case.
I question why he even thought he had to use a taser in the first place. The guy didn't seem to be resisting. A taser should not be a weapon of first resort. The officer (and the other officers) seemed really startled in the video though.
I'm concerned about any rioting and violence, especially against other minority communities in Oakland. Oakland has been undergoing a demographic change and some of the black community is extremely resentful and racist against incoming minority groups (Hispanics and Asians). This decision might be used to justify hate crimes. The police must really be alert.
I'm concerned about any rioting and violence, especially against other minority communities in Oakland. Oakland has been undergoing a demographic change and some of the black community is extremely resentful and racist against incoming minority groups (Hispanics and Asians). This decision might be used to justify hate crimes. The police must really be alert.
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