Valve's Steamworks makes DRM/Crippleware Obsolete

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
According to you its the result of the Infinite Monkey Theorem where a bunch of idiots who don't actually know how SecuROM works hit the 1-star rating button along with whatever else, ultimately resulting in the source code for the revoke tool you see today.

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Concerned consumers are now idiots? That's nice. I suppose you would explain the revoke tools in terms of the goodwill constantly evidenced by the companies rather than consumer pressure?

A lot of the posters on Amazon clearly didn't know exactly how activation based SecuROM worked, they were just protesting it, which is how most protests start in the first place. You think that the people holding up signs outside the capital protesting some new proposed law understand exactly how it works? You'd have to study law to understand the wording, just like you'd have to study computer programming to understand exactly how SecuROM works at the system level. Probably more than half don't understand it fully, they just understand a small part and are opposed to that. Does that make what they are doing wrong? IMO no. Lets say that the majority of people voting down the Amazon stats were only fully versed on the fact that activation based SecuROM installs extra "junk" on their machine, when all they want to do is buy and play a game. That in my mind is a good enough reason to protest. Those of us who know more about how it works have even more of a reason to protest it since it's clear that it does nothing but take away consumer rights.

Originally posted by: Red IrishI am not alone in viewing Securom as a rootkit, despite all the PR from the companies, just type "Securom + Rootkit" into Google to see the number of poor misinformed idiots:

SecuROM is technically not a rootkit. I do agree with chizow on this one point. But, what it is, is poorly designed software that doesn't uninstall from your machine when you uninstall the game using it. So in that regard it's just as bad if not worse than a rootkit.

Originally posted by: Red IrishI am not alone. The perception is widespread throughout the community and attempts to justify the continued use of Securom have more to do with support for fat contracts between EA and Sony than the wishes of gamers.[/b]

This is what I believe as well, especially after conversations like the one I posted on page 14 of this thread.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
And when do I say its their only interest? I said DRM exists to protect the content of IP and copyright holders. And as I've linked in other threads, piracy just so happens to be the greatest threat to their content and the driving force behind DRM as demonstrated repeatedly in quotes and interviews with developers and industry leaders.

Who are misinformed and convinced by the developers of DRM solutions that it's actually worth having, when in reality it does next to nothing to stop piracy.

Lets look at the music industry for a prefect example of how DRM has utterly failed.

- People start downloading more music illegally as the internet becomes more accessible and faster for the majority of computer users.

- The industry freaks out and starts suing people, putting rootkits on cd's, and raising prices.

- Doing the above has no effect on piracy rates, and it anything they continue to grow.

- Apple and other innovators realize this flawed solution and introduce services that give people quicker and easier access to music with iTunes and other online services. People start buying again.

- Unfortunately the industry can't trust the no DRM at all approach and continue to attach DRM to iTunes and other services. It's a step forward and a step back at the same time, but still better than the alternative.

..fast forward a year or two

- The industry realizes that the lawsuits didn't do anything and drops all of them. They also realize that putting DRM on iTunes and other services didn't work either and drops that as well, making iTunes DRM free where anyone can now give copies of mp3's to their friends. But that doesn't stop people from buying from them at all, it actually increases their sales.

See the similarity? We're already seeing this happen in the PC games industry. With companies like Ubisoft dropping DRM altogether from some of their newer games and even stubborn EA not including draconian DRM on the Sims 3.

We'll see how it all pans out, but i'm surprised more people in the industry don't recognize the similarity between what has already gone down for the music industry and what has happened/is happening right now in our industry. I guess they just need to learn the hard way like the music industry did.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Originally posted by: chizow
And when do I say its their only interest? I said DRM exists to protect the content of IP and copyright holders. And as I've linked in other threads, piracy just so happens to be the greatest threat to their content and the driving force behind DRM as demonstrated repeatedly in quotes and interviews with developers and industry leaders.

Who are misinformed and convinced by the developers of DRM solutions that it's actually worth having, when in reality it does next to nothing to stop piracy.

Lets look at the music industry for a prefect example of how DRM has utterly failed.

- People start downloading more music illegally as the internet becomes more accessible and faster for the majority of computer users.

- The industry freaks out and starts suing people, putting rootkits on cd's, and raising prices.

- Doing the above has no effect on piracy rates, and it anything they continue to grow.

- Apple and other innovators realize this flawed solution and introduce services that give people quicker and easier access to music with iTunes and other online services. People start buying again.

- Unfortunately the industry can't trust the no DRM at all approach and continue to attach DRM to iTunes and other services. It's a step forward and a step back at the same time, but still better than the alternative.

- The industry realizes that the lawsuits didn't do anything and drops all of them. They also realize that putting DRM on iTunes and other services didn't work either and drops that as well, making iTunes DRM free where anyone can now give copies of mp3's to their friends. But that doesn't stop people from buying from them at all, it actually increases their sales.

See the similarity? We're already seeing this happen in the PC games industry. With companies like Ubisoft dropping DRM altogether from some of their newer games and even stubborn EA not including draconian DRM on the Sims 3.

We'll see how it all pans out, but i'm surprised more people in the industry didn't recognize the similarity between what has already gone down for the music industry and what has happened/is happening right now in our industry. I guess they just needed to learn the hard way.

Just a minor correction, but currently, only songs from some labels are iTunes Plus (256, DRM free, etc.) Also, even though they have no DRM, they are still watermarked, so um..."sharing" them wouldn't be a good idea!

But yes, after years of battling, the music industry is realizing that DRM doesn't work and only alienates the customer further. Hopefully, the PC gaming industry realizes this soon.

Buying DRMed music is one thing...you buy a file that is all crudded up with DRM. Buying a PC game that infests your computer with SecuROM and it's ilk is a totally different affair. PC gaming DRM is much more malevolent than music DRM, because it actually installs malware onto your system.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: chizow
As for how it impacts sales for Sims 3, we shall see, but I do know it will still be pirated less than if it had no DRM at all.

No, you don't.

Seriously chizow, you'd be ok if all you did was correct people's misconceptions about SecuROM (i.e., providing information on how its authorization/deauthorization works or describing how it's not actually a rootkit). I also like that you at least provide some numbers based on sales and piracy to support your own opinion on the validity of DRM, even if I find your analysis highly suspect.

But the vast majority of your posts focus instead on calling people idiots, accusing them of conspiring to systematically misinform the public and undermine noble attempts to protect the industry. Either that or just straight up calling people pirates and criminals. When you're not doing that, you're using the information you have to jump to illogical conclusions that support your agenda (whatever that may be). See the above quoted comment for an example.

You are so impenetrably pro-SecuROM that you actually go out of your way to discredit people who have claimed to have problems with it, to the point of calling them morons for not understanding this DRM's inner workings. That's not a good way to get people to agree with you.

A lot of people have assumed or implied that you work for EA or at least have some vested interest in SecuROM beyond that of a "concerned gamer", but has anybody actually asked? Do you work in the gaming industry or otherwise help develop/make use of SecuROM?

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Just a minor correction, but currently, only songs from some labels are iTunes Plus (256, DRM free, etc.) Also, even though they have no DRM, they are still watermarked, so um..."sharing" them wouldn't be a good idea!

Thanks for the correction. So not all DRM is gone, but simple watermarking is better than what it used to be, where you couldn't transfer music between your own devices. The PC games industry should take note of that solution, as it's a pretty non-invasive way of tracking copies. I still prefer no DRM at all, but that solution is a lot more reasonable. Hopefully all of iTunes adopts that method in the near future.

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: chizow
As for how it impacts sales for Sims 3, we shall see, but I do know it will still be pirated less than if it had no DRM at all.

No, you don't.

Seriously chizow, you'd be ok if all you did was correct people's misconceptions about SecuROM (i.e., providing information on how its authorization/deauthorization works or describing how it's not actually a rootkit). I also like that you at least provide some numbers based on sales and piracy to support your own opinion on the validity of DRM, even if I find your analysis highly suspect.

But the vast majority of your posts focus instead on calling people idiots, accusing them of conspiring to systematically misinform the public and undermine noble attempts to protect the industry. Either that or just straight up calling people pirates and criminals. When you're not doing that, you're using the information you have to jump to illogical conclusions that support your agenda (whatever that may be). See the above quoted comment for an example.

You are so impenetrably pro-SecuROM that you actually go out of your way to discredit people who have claimed to have problems with it, to the point of calling them morons for not understanding this DRM's inner workings. That's not a good way to get people to agree with you.

A lot of people have assumed or implied that you work for EA or at least have some vested interest in SecuROM beyond that of a "concerned gamer", but has anybody actually asked? Do you work in the gaming industry or otherwise help develop/make use of SecuROM?

He most definately has an agenda here, either that or absolutely no life at all, take your pick. All i know is that normal people spend nowhere near as much time/effort as chizow does with an online disagreement. Theres heated discussions that some people have... then theres what chizow does, he literally shows up in every single DRM thread and craps all over it, takes things waaay too far. Very strange indeed.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: Maximilian

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: chizow
As for how it impacts sales for Sims 3, we shall see, but I do know it will still be pirated less than if it had no DRM at all.

No, you don't.

Seriously chizow, you'd be ok if all you did was correct people's misconceptions about SecuROM (i.e., providing information on how its authorization/deauthorization works or describing how it's not actually a rootkit). I also like that you at least provide some numbers based on sales and piracy to support your own opinion on the validity of DRM, even if I find your analysis highly suspect.

But the vast majority of your posts focus instead on calling people idiots, accusing them of conspiring to systematically misinform the public and undermine noble attempts to protect the industry. Either that or just straight up calling people pirates and criminals. When you're not doing that, you're using the information you have to jump to illogical conclusions that support your agenda (whatever that may be). See the above quoted comment for an example.

You are so impenetrably pro-SecuROM that you actually go out of your way to discredit people who have claimed to have problems with it, to the point of calling them morons for not understanding this DRM's inner workings. That's not a good way to get people to agree with you.

A lot of people have assumed or implied that you work for EA or at least have some vested interest in SecuROM beyond that of a "concerned gamer", but has anybody actually asked? Do you work in the gaming industry or otherwise help develop/make use of SecuROM?

He most definately has an agenda here, either that or absolutely no life at all, take your pick. All i know is that normal people spend nowhere near as much time/effort as chizow does with an online disagreement. Theres heated discussions that some people have... then theres what chizow does, he literally shows up in every single DRM thread and craps all over it, takes things waaay too far. Very strange indeed.

Well, he's obviously a zealot of some sort. It's just a matter of whether or not he gets paid to be one.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: Maximilian

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
A lot of people have assumed or implied that you work for EA or at least have some vested interest in SecuROM beyond that of a "concerned gamer", but has anybody actually asked? Do you work in the gaming industry or otherwise help develop/make use of SecuROM?

He most definately has an agenda here, either that or absolutely no life at all, take your pick. All i know is that normal people spend nowhere near as much time/effort as chizow does with an online disagreement. Theres heated discussions that some people have... then theres what chizow does, he literally shows up in every single DRM thread and craps all over it, takes things waaay too far. Very strange indeed.

Well, he's obviously a zealot of some sort. It's just a matter of whether or not he gets paid to be one.

I think he just has a huge ego and feels like he's the only one with a firm grasp on how DRM works and the "obvious" need for using it. It's clear he believes no one else understands but him, so he's on a mission to inform all the masses.. lol

At this point do you think he's convincing anyone of anything besides himself? That's what i'd like to know. I don't see anyone posting here who shares his point of view in the slightest. Maybe skace, but he's long gone.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Who are misinformed and convinced by the developers of DRM solutions that it's actually worth having, when in reality it does next to nothing to stop piracy.

Uh, you can't really believe this. You don't seem to realize the people who are actually making games are undoubtedly well versed in the culture of piracy and well aware of how rampant it is. Not to mention they do have concrete and accurate methods for determining piracy rates. You think its an accident that every developer and publisher is looking to make the next "WoW-killer"? Besides the huge sales and recurring revenue from subscriptions, MMOs are simply not pirated because pay-to-play content is the most effective form of DRM possible. DRM is not going away, they're just looking for the most effective and most transparent form possible. Some of the Steam-required and GFWL titles we've seen recently are undoubtedly a step in this direction.

As for iTunes and the music industry. The restrictive DRM on iTunes certainly didn't hurt its image enough to stop it from becoming the number one form of music distribution, despite offering lower quality. But Apple has once again pulled off the impossible here by convincing everyone iTunes Plus has no DRM. What they conveniently fail to mention however is that iTunes Plus effectively pulls away the curtain of anonymity of the internet by tethering every song to the original purchaser. They didn't get rid of DRM, they just replaced theft prevention methods with real accountability and enforcement.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
No, you don't.

Yes, I do. I've asked numerous times for evidence showing titles with the most offensive forms of DRM everyone complains about approaching the piracy rates of games with no DRM at all. You won't find any and its obvious why. Games that have no protections at all will be pirated the most. Its just common sense really.

Seriously chizow, you'd be ok if all you did was correct people's misconceptions about SecuROM (i.e., providing information on how its authorization/deauthorization works or describing how it's not actually a rootkit). I also like that you at least provide some numbers based on sales and piracy to support your own opinion on the validity of DRM, even if I find your analysis highly suspect.

But the vast majority of your posts focus instead on calling people idiots, accusing them of conspiring to systematically misinform the public and undermine noble attempts to protect the industry. Either that or just straight up calling people pirates and criminals. When you're not doing that, you're using the information you have to jump to illogical conclusions that support your agenda (whatever that may be). See the above quoted comment for an example.

Vast majority spent calling people idiots or accusing them of conspiring? Hardly, the vast majority is spent providing evidence and arguments to prove the point, and after clearly proving it, coming to the conclusion a person who still doesn't understand could only be an idiot.

As for calling people pirates or criminals, again, the people in this forum I have accused of pirating software have directly admitted to it, intentionally or not. You might not have seen the post, or been around long enough for the discussion but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You are so impenetrably pro-SecuROM that you actually go out of your way to discredit people who have claimed to have problems with it, to the point of calling them morons for not understanding this DRM's inner workings. That's not a good way to get people to agree with you.

Uh no, I'm so anti-misinformation that I'm going to discredit certain posters in cases they're clearly lying or spreading misinformation.

A lot of people have assumed or implied that you work for EA or at least have some vested interest in SecuROM beyond that of a "concerned gamer", but has anybody actually asked? Do you work in the gaming industry or otherwise help develop/make use of SecuROM?

No I don't work for EA, SecuROM, or any of the other dozen game companies listed in the SecuROM Games list. The thought process behind these accusations goes something like this:

1) I dun liek wut u haz say!!11elevne!!
2) Ur werkin for [insert company name accuser opposes]!!!ne!1

Someone can't find fault in an argument, so instead of arguing the topic at hand, they accuse the person for being a shill or employee of the company in question. This really should be made into an intarweb's law, its not quite ad hominem, similar in some ways to Godwin's Law which was invoked early on, but not nearly as extreme.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Maximilian
He most definately has an agenda here, either that or absolutely no life at all, take your pick. All i know is that normal people spend nowhere near as much time/effort as chizow does with an online disagreement. Theres heated discussions that some people have... then theres what chizow does, he literally shows up in every single DRM thread and craps all over it, takes things waaay too far. Very strange indeed.

I've already stated my agenda numerous times, to discredit and disprove the anti-DRM and pro-piracy propaganda and misinformation spread by the vocal minority. Luckily enough the nonsense presented makes for easy sport as its so easily refuted by readily available facts and evidence.

Originally posted by: mindcycle
I think he just has a huge ego and feels like he's the only one with a firm grasp on how DRM works and the "obvious" need for using it. It's clear he believes no one else understands but him, so he's on a mission to inform all the masses.. lol

At this point do you think he's convincing anyone of anything besides himself? That's what i'd like to know. I don't see anyone posting here who shares his point of view in the slightest. Maybe skace, but he's long gone.

Oh there's no doubt there's a certain sense of gratification proving people like you, Red Irish etc. to be nothing more than lying trolls bent on spreading misinformation about "so important" topics like SecuROM. But like I've said pages ago, I'd say its pretty obvious I've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the problems with SecuROM are not only grossly overstated, but that the most vocal opponents often don't even know what it does or how it works. Scary to think there's many more like you all across the intarwebs! I can only do so much though, at least AT readers will always have this thread to draw upon.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Who are misinformed and convinced by the developers of DRM solutions that it's actually worth having, when in reality it does next to nothing to stop piracy.

Originally posted by: chizow
Uh, you can't really believe this.

I most definitely do.

Originally posted by: chizow
You don't seem to realize the people who are actually making games are undoubtedly well versed in the culture of piracy and well aware of how rampant it is.

Yes, I agree game developers are typically well versed, but unfortunately they aren't the ones making the decisions. Refer to the conversation I posted on page 14.

Originally posted by: chizow
Not to mention they do have concrete and accurate methods for determining piracy rates.

I'm sure they do, but they don't have concrete evidence on the number of copies sold with and without DRM. When they have that let me know, because that's what we're arguing here, not whether or not people pirate games.

Originally posted by: chizow
You think its an accident that every developer and publisher is looking to make the next "WoW-killer"? Besides the huge sales and recurring revenue from subscriptions, MMOs are simply not pirated because pay-to-play content is the most effective form of DRM possible.

Effective DRM has nothing to do with it. It's the nature of the online subscription model and the amount of money it has been shown to make that is attractive (as you said yourself). There are pirate WoW servers and pirate game copies all over the place, but that doesn't stop them from making tons and tons of money off the service does it? The DRM they use isn't any more effective than anything else, it just they offer a greater incentive to purchase a real copy. That is.. Superior servers, game updates, good customer support, etc.. More incentives to buy, not more roadblocks, that's the key to their success.

Originally posted by: chizow
DRM is not going away, they're just looking for the most effective and most transparent form possible. Some of the Steam-required and GFWL titles we've seen recently are undoubtedly a step in this direction.

I agree it's probably not going away for the most part, and yes the more transparent versions are better, but IMO it's still a waste of money and not effective in stopping piracy in the least. You can argue that it is until you're blue in the face, but you have no hard data to back up what you are saying.

Originally posted by: chizow
As for iTunes and the music industry. The restrictive DRM on iTunes certainly didn't hurt its image enough to stop it from becoming the number one form of music distribution, despite offering lower quality. But Apple has once again pulled off the impossible here by convincing everyone iTunes Plus has no DRM. What they conveniently fail to mention however is that iTunes Plus effectively pulls away the curtain of anonymity of the internet by tethering every song to the original purchaser. They didn't get rid of DRM, they just replaced theft prevention methods with real accountability and enforcement.

Sounds like something the PC gaming industry should take notes on. I'll take a watermarked song any day over a song that can only be tied to a few computers/devices, just like i'd take a cd key based copy protected game that I can easily use on as many machines as I want over an online activated / limited install game that will eventually cause me headaches.

It's all about fewer roadblock chizow, not more. That was the point I was trying to make, and you can see my reply to RyanPaulShaffer above as he's already corrected what I initially wrote.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
I can only do so much though, at least AT readers will always have this thread to draw upon.

lol, I see a lot of people backing you up in here.. You're right, AT readers will have this thread to draw upon and see how many people actually agree with the nonsense you're spewing here. One maybe two..

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: Maximilian

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
A lot of people have assumed or implied that you work for EA or at least have some vested interest in SecuROM beyond that of a "concerned gamer", but has anybody actually asked? Do you work in the gaming industry or otherwise help develop/make use of SecuROM?

He most definately has an agenda here, either that or absolutely no life at all, take your pick. All i know is that normal people spend nowhere near as much time/effort as chizow does with an online disagreement. Theres heated discussions that some people have... then theres what chizow does, he literally shows up in every single DRM thread and craps all over it, takes things waaay too far. Very strange indeed.

Well, he's obviously a zealot of some sort. It's just a matter of whether or not he gets paid to be one.

I think he just has a huge ego and feels like he's the only one with a firm grasp on how DRM works and the "obvious" need for using it. It's clear he believes no one else understands but him, so he's on a mission to inform all the masses.. lol

At this point do you think he's convincing anyone of anything besides himself? That's what i'd like to know. I don't see anyone posting here who shares his point of view in the slightest. Maybe skace, but he's long gone.

Where did skace go? I think i remember him.

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Maximilian
He most definately has an agenda here, either that or absolutely no life at all, take your pick. All i know is that normal people spend nowhere near as much time/effort as chizow does with an online disagreement. Theres heated discussions that some people have... then theres what chizow does, he literally shows up in every single DRM thread and craps all over it, takes things waaay too far. Very strange indeed.

I've already stated my agenda numerous times, to discredit and disprove the anti-DRM and pro-piracy propaganda and misinformation spread by the vocal minority. Luckily enough the nonsense presented makes for easy sport as its so easily refuted by readily available facts and evidence.

Originally posted by: mindcycle
I think he just has a huge ego and feels like he's the only one with a firm grasp on how DRM works and the "obvious" need for using it. It's clear he believes no one else understands but him, so he's on a mission to inform all the masses.. lol

At this point do you think he's convincing anyone of anything besides himself? That's what i'd like to know. I don't see anyone posting here who shares his point of view in the slightest. Maybe skace, but he's long gone.

Oh there's no doubt there's a certain sense of gratification proving people like you, Red Irish etc. to be nothing more than lying trolls bent on spreading misinformation about "so important" topics like SecuROM. But like I've said pages ago, I'd say its pretty obvious I've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the problems with SecuROM are not only grossly overstated, but that the most vocal opponents often don't even know what it does or how it works. Scary to think there's many more like you all across the intarwebs! I can only do so much though, at least AT readers will always have this thread to draw upon.

You know i dont read anything you say anymore lol.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
I most definitely do.

So you must also certainly know the most outspoken people calling the shots are often the actual devs themselves, many of whom built their companies from the ground-up from nothing right?

Yes, I agree game developers are typically well versed, but unfortunately they aren't the ones making the decisions. Refer to the conversation I posted on page 14.

Sure they are, the ones that haven't closed shop anyways. The lead developers and founders of these studios are some of the most outspoken about piracy on the PC.

I'm sure they do, but they don't have concrete evidence on the number of copies sold with and without DRM. When they have that let me know, because that's what we're arguing here, not whether or not people pirate games.

Uh, ya they do. They simply compare sales to distribution methods or platforms with more stringent DRM, like consoles, Steam, MMOs etc. For example, they release a cross-platform title and see its clearly selling fewer copies on the PC, yet is being pirated exponentially more than the console versions, or even the Steam version. Obviously they can come to the conclusion that more effective DRM is more effective at preventing piracy.

Effective DRM has nothing to do with it. It's the nature of the online subscription model and the amount of money it has been shown to make that is attractive (as you said yourself). There are pirate WoW servers and pirate game copies all over the place, but that doesn't stop them from making tons and tons of money off the service does it? The DRM they use isn't any more effective than anything else, it just they offer a greater incentive to purchase a real copy. That is.. Superior servers, game updates, good customer support, etc.. More incentives to buy, not more roadblocks, that's the key to their success.

Rofl, the private WoW server argument again. I'll have to dig it up, but the last time someone brought that up we showed the pirate server total for peak users in a day was something like 100K. 100K out of 11 million+ and counting.

The form of DRM MMOs employs has everything to do with it, they control the content by tying it to payment. There's no way around it. You pay or you don't play. Even the gold sellers, the scum of the MMO community rank higher than pirates in the overall gaming hierarchy as they actually pay for their games lol.

Its no surprise that services like Steam, XBox Live, PSN, GFWL etc. are all trying to mimic this DRM and content control system with downloadable content, microtransactions, tied user accounts, secure online servers, online-authentication, online only etc. Of course the key here is, they have you have you by the balls (and have your CC number). By requiring a form of payment in order to play their games, they eliminate the risk of attracting the undesirables, ie. the people who don't have money or won't pay for their games.

I agree it's probably not going away for the most part, and yes the more transparent versions are better, but IMO it's still a waste of money and not effective in stopping piracy in the least. You can argue that it is until you're blue in the face, but you have no hard data to back up what you are saying.

Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary.

Sounds like something the PC gaming industry should take notes on. I'll take a watermarked song any day over a song that can only be tied to a few computers/devices, just like i'd take a cd key based copy protected game that I can easily use on as many machines as I want over an online activated / limited install game that will eventually cause me headaches.

It's all about fewer roadblock chizow, not more. That was the point I was trying to make, and you can see my reply to RyanPaulShaffer above as he's already corrected what I initially wrote.

And that's what the PC industry is moving towards and Steam is certainly a good example of that. Its going to get to the point that it won't matter if you you have a pirated copy of a game, it won't be of any use to anyone but the original purchaser or account holder. Of course some may see it as convenient and less intrusive, others may not. There's clearly no form of DRM that everyone is going to embrace.

lol, I see a lot of people backing you up in here.. You're right, AT readers will have this thread to draw upon and see how many people actually agree with the nonsense you're spewing here. One maybe two..

Oh there's certainly enough that have both publicly and privately, don't worry about me. If we went by public outcry, 1-star ratings, or random BS anti-DRM blog sites one might actually think this was a "big problem". :laugh:

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
Rofl, the private WoW server argument again. I'll have to dig it up, but the last time someone brought that up we showed the pirate server total for peak users in a day was something like 100K. 100K out of 11 million+ and counting.

Which once again proves if you provide a superior service then there is no reason to pirate the game, which is what I already said and you conveniently ignored. So i'll just post it again.

Originally posted by: mindcycle
The DRM they use isn't any more effective than anything else, it just they offer a greater incentive to purchase a real copy. That is.. Superior servers, game updates, good customer support, etc.. More incentives to buy, not more roadblocks, that's the key to their success.

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary.

Right, and Ubisoft dropping it altogether for some of their newer games proves what again?

Originally posted by: chizow
Oh there's certainly enough that have both publicly and privately, don't worry about me. If we went by public outcry, 1-star ratings, or random BS anti-DRM blog sites one might actually think this was a "big problem". :laugh:

And you certainly must have the evidence to back up that claim, right? ..lol.. So let me call you out on that one man, because we've been called out by you already for "lack" of evidence supposedly when it come to problems we've personally had with SecuROM. I'm sure you can certainly back up your claim here if it's true, so go right ahead and then i'll believe you ..or not, because like you I can conveniently choose to ignore reality as well if I so desire.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Maximilian
You know i dont read anything you say anymore lol.

Of course you don't, which is probably a good thing. Given you haven't bothered contributing in this thread until now I'd say it certainly is.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Which once again proves if you provide a superior service then there is no reason to pirate the game, which is what I already said and you conveniently ignored. So i'll just post it again.

Uh, no, you said the existence of pirate WoW servers somehow proved your point about MMO's DRM model being ineffective, when that's clearly not the case. It clearly shows that the more effective forms of DRM employed, the lower the rate of piracy and it shows without a doubt that tying someone's credit card to gameplay is about as effective DRM as you'll find. That does not automatically translate into higher sales, but it absolutely translates into lower piracy rates.

This extends beyond WoW btw, so you can't claim its just due to superior service and content. Even shitty MMOs see similarly low piracy rates, even less actually, as the demand for non-legitimate service is even lower than legitimate service, decreasing the likelihood that a pirate community is worth supporting.

Right, and Ubisoft dropping it altogether for some of their newer games proves what again?

Actually Ubisoft's example looks to be a bit of social engineering, even the community manager's post about it seems as much:

• Prince of Persia PC, Will you still pirate it?
  ?A lot of people complain that DRM is what forces people to pirate games,? writes Ubisoft community manager Chris Easton in a post on their official forums, ?but as PoP PC has no DRM we`ll see how truthful people actually are. Not very, I imagine.?

Given some of the piracy figures for PoP I've already linked to, along with the decision not to release the DLC Epilogue due to "business reasons", I'd say his prediction was a bit of an obvious self-fulfilling prophecy and foregone conclusion heh.

And you certainly must have the evidence to back up that claim, right? ..lol.. So let me call you out on that one man, because we've been called out by you already for "lack" of evidence supposedly when it come to problems we've personally had with SecuROM. I'm sure you can certainly back up your claim here if it's true, so go right ahead and then i'll believe you ..or not, because like you I can conveniently choose to ignore reality as well if I so desire.

Yep, sure do. There's plenty of folks who have no problem and prefer DRM schemes like Steam. There's also plenty who have echo'd similar in the previous SecuROM and piracy threads. Most will not bother to say more than a few words or a single post or two because they realize how seemingly futile it is to try and reason with people so bent on misinformation. Or they simply don't have the appetite for the confrontation. Luckily, I have no such qualms.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
Uh, no, you said the existence of pirate WoW servers somehow proved your point about MMO's DRM model being ineffective, when that's clearly not the case.

The fact that you can find a pirated copy of WoW and play it on a pirate server proves that the DRM is as ineffective as any other form of DRM used on PC games, all of which have been cracked or bypassed. Again, you choose to conveniently ignore what i'm saying. The greater the incentives to purchase a product, the less reason a user would have to pirate it. The DRM was cracked so obviously it didn't work, thus making it ineffective. Keep trying.

Originally posted by: chizow
Even shitty MMOs see similarly low piracy rates,

Yes, because they're shitty. Doesn't seem too complicated to figure that one out. lol

Originally posted by: chizow
Actually Ubisoft's example looks to be a bit of social engineering

Oh, I see.. So what about Tom Clancy's HAWX, is that a social experiment as well? Seems like your initial claim is a bit off hu? Lets see what you said..

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary.

Everyone eh? Just not Ubisoft, right? Or Stardock, or Positech Games, or Kloonigames, or countless others.

Now your falling over your own words trying to regain some sort of control it seems. Care to correct your claim? If it's not too much of a loss of ego for you of course..

Originally posted by: chizow
Yep, sure do. There's plenty of folks who have no problem and prefer DRM schemes like Steam. There's also plenty who have echo'd similar in the previous SecuROM and piracy threads. Most will not bother to say more than a few words or a single post or two because they realize how seemingly futile it is to try and reason with people so bent on misinformation. Or they simply don't have the appetite for the confrontation. Luckily, I have no such qualms.

Ok, so to clarify.. Your stance on the situation is that DRM is effective and necessary. That everyone in the industry sees at as effective and necessary. ..and that somehow people who never experience problems with DRM somehow count as a vote toward your stance on the subject.

Yeah.. if you don't see the flaw in that assumption then it's pointless to try and explain it to you. Once again, lets see some data. Show me some posts where people speak up and support your point of view other than skace. You can of course produce that data right? Given that everyone already realizes it, and how "obvious" it is, you should be able to produce something other than simple conjecture like you did above..

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
The fact that you can find a pirated copy of WoW and play it on a pirate server proves that the DRM is as ineffective as any other form of DRM used on PC games, all of which have been cracked or bypassed. Again, you choose to conveniently ignore what i'm saying. The greater the incentives to purchase a product, the less reason a user would have to pirate it. The DRM was cracked so obviously it didn't work, thus making it ineffective. Keep trying.

LMAO. Seriously take a step back for a second. You're claiming that a game that sees .1% piracy rates with over 11 million+ subscriptions has ineffective DRM? ROFL. Ineffective compared to what? A Vegas Casino? A Federal Reserve Bank? LMAO.

Yes, because they're shitty. Doesn't seem too complicated to figure that one out. lol

Uh no, its because they have effective DRM regardless of how shitty they are and there's still exponentially more paying customers than those attempting to steal it.

Oh, I see.. So what about Tom Clancy's HAWX, is that a social experiment as well? Seems like your initial claim is a bit off hu? Lets see what you said..

Everyone eh? Just not Ubisoft, right? Or Stardock, or Positech Games, or Kloonigames, or countless others.

Now your falling over your own words trying to regain some sort of control it seems. Care to correct you claim? If it's not too much of a loss of ego for you of course..

Yep, Ubisoft has a history of weaker DRM, we'll see how long they continue to release games on the PC. Given the history of piracy for some of their previous titles like Assassins's Creed and Prince of Persia, it wouldn't come as any surprise if they chose not to. Stardock does have DRM btw, its just not SecuROM (make sure to research this before you run your mouth).

Ok, so to clarify.. Your stance on the situation is that DRM is effective and necessary. That everyone in the industry sees at as effective and necessary. ..and that somehow people who never experience problems with DRM somehow count as a vote toward your stance on the subject.

Yeah.. if you don't see the flaw in that assumption then it's pointless to try and explain it to you. Once again, lets see some data. Show me some posts where people speak up and support your point of view other than skace. You can of course produce that data right? Given that everyone already realizes it, and how "obvious" it is, you should be able to produce something other than simple conjecture like you did above..

Yep, the overwhelming majority has no issues with DRM and may never know it even exists on their machine, which is why they don't care enough to interject in a confrontational thread like this one. The vocal minority of course will attempt to make the issue seem more pronounced than it actually is while saying just about anything in the process, as this thread and others clearly demonstrate.

As for others speaking up and supporting my point of view, there's certainly plenty that have spoken up for Skace's point of view and Steam, so you're clearly wrong there. There's also been plenty more agreeing with my point of view on DRM and piracy in the Tweakguides thread on piracy, the SecuROM thread, and the various others. They're there for anyone to see, feel free to dig them up and read through them, if you like.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
LMAO. Seriously take a step back for a second. You're claiming that a game that sees .1% piracy rates with over 11 million+ subscriptions has ineffective DRM?

Yep. The game was cracked and pirated, therefore the DRM was ineffective at stopping piracy. Once again.. The reason it sees a .1% piracy rate is because a purchased copy is far superior to a pirated one. What about that don't you understand?

Originally posted by: chizow
Yep, Ubisoft has a history of weaker DRM, we'll see how long they continue to release games on the PC. Given the history of piracy for some of their previous titles like Assassins's Creed and Prince of Persia, it wouldn't come as any surprise if they chose not to.

Oh, lol.. Of course the answer is that they have weaker DRM so that's "obviously" why they choose to use no DRM at all, right? And that proves that everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary (as you claim) how again?

Originally posted by: chizow
Stardock does have DRM btw, its just not SecuROM (make sure to research this before you run your mouth).

I buy a retail version of Sins of Solar Empire, I install it, I play it. If I want to play online I need the serial number, if not, no DRM whatsoever. Maybe you should make sure to research this before you run "your" mouth.

Originally posted by: chizow
As for others speaking up and supporting my point of view, there's certainly plenty that have spoken up for Skace's point of view and Steam, so you're clearly wrong there. There's also been plenty more agreeing with my point of view on DRM and piracy in the Tweakguides thread on piracy, the SecuROM thread, and the various others. They're there for anyone to see, feel free to dig them up and read through them, if you like.

Links to threads agreeing with your point of view that everyone in the industry sees DRM as effective and necessary.. humm.. lets see.. 0

 

[Red Irish]

Chizow?s Evidence

Chizow cited two web sites in response to my criticisms of Securom, namely:

1) http://forum.daemon-tools.cc/f...g-bs-22469/index4.html


and


2) http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_9.html


1) The first site involves a technical conversation wherein a poster claims that Securom installs a driver at the kernel level of the system, much in the manner of rootkits, and is attacked for failing to provide proof and presented with evidence that Securom remains on ring 3. The jury is still out on that one and you will find conflicting claims on the Internet. My opinion? I don?t think that Securom can be described as a rootkit in the strictest sense of the term, I would be lying if I stated otherwise. However, let?s take a look at one of the characteristics of this definition of rootkit:

Typically, rootkits act to obscure their presence on the system through subversion or evasion of standard operating system security mechanisms. Often, they are Trojans as well, thus fooling users into believing they are safe to run on their systems. Techniques used to accomplish this can include concealing running processes from monitoring programs, or hiding files or system data from the operating system. [my bold]

[source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit]

Now, when we refer to Securom as a rootkit, most of us are referring to the fact that it does in fact hide registry entries that are not removed subsequent to uninstalling the game and from this point of view I feel that it?s a fair comparison. However, before Securom apologists, such as chizow, start claiming that we obviously know nothing about the manner in which rootkits or Securom operate, I have to confess that we should really be describing Securom as rookit-esque, or as employing detection evasion that is akin to the methods employed by rootkits. Nevertheless, we?re straying off the point here. My problem with Securom is that it leaves remnants on the registry subsequent to uninstalling the game. This is where the Securom apologists become cornered and offer one of the following defences:

a) the remnants are innocuous and are no cause for concern
b) other programs employ similar methods

They use these defences to draw attention away from the fact that there is no logical explanation for Securom?s presence on a system once the game that it is supposedly employed to protect is no longer installed on a user?s system. Anyone brave enough to read through chizow?s rantings in this regard will find no arguments or explanations other than these defences. Moreover, in certain places, these remnants are illegal. It seems that copy protection laws in California and New York require protection software to remove all traces of said protection once the software being protected is uninstalled. Here, the Securom apologists will scramble to point us to the various Securom removal kits released by the companies and thereby seemingly prove our fears to be, once again, unfounded. However, they will not explain why this removal tool was not included on the game in the first place. The removal tools, where released subsequent to the games, simply show that the companies have been forced to relent by consumer pressure and the fact that they (or rather we) have realised that their actions in this regard make them susceptible to legal action.

For the reasons outlined above, I will continue to refer to Securom as a rootkit/malware. Moreover, it clearly aggravates the Securom apologists.



2) The second article cited by our knowledgeable friend involves an analysis of piracy within the gaming industry and the use of DRM, including Securom and Steam. I found the article to be, on the whole, well-informed and accurate (are you surprised chizow?) and I would encourage everyone to read it. You see, from the outset I have stated that I am against piracy, and I am. I do not need facts and figures to prove that it is hurting the industry. I have also repeatedly stated that I am willing to accept DRM and accept that it is a necessary evil, provided that it focuses on what its meant to do, does not interfere with normal day-to-day system usage and does not restrict my rights. What I am not willing to accept is piracy being used as a pretext by the companies to a) gain greater control over aspects where they previously had no influence (second-hand sales) b) enforce a protection system that clearly contravenes the precept of keeping the customer happy.

In relation to the second article cited by chizow I would also state the following:

a) The author draws attention to the following in relation to Securom:

?It is known to conflict with certain brands of optical drives. The reasons for this are not mentioned on the SecuROM site, but it's a hardware-level incompatibility. There are workarounds such as noted in this thread, and this issue is discussed further in the Conclusion section.?

I reported issues with my drive as a result of the Securom on Bioshock. However, chizow has repeatedly called this a fabrication and referred to me as a liar on several occasions. Can you imagine if he/she worked for the technical support at EA?

Customer: I?ve got a problem with?
Tech Support: Liar
Customer: But?
Tech support: Liar

At least the author of the article has admitted that this is a ?verifiable? (to use chizow?s terms) problem, so whether or not other forum users believe that it happened to me is largely irrelevant. Incidentally, the author promised to discuss this issue further in the conclusion section, but I didn?t find any further discussion. Maybe I was just tired.

b) In my opinion, the author looses a lot of creditability by citing EA CEO John Riccitiello, an individual who should never be used in support of any argument.

c) Reading between the lines, the author does seem to have a bias against Steam and in favour of Securom (a bit like chizow). Nevertheless, the points made in criticism of Steam, or rather, in criticism of the fact that Steam is seen as the people?s champion, whilst Securom is seen as the Devil?s spawn are valid. Personally, I see a lot of problems with Steam, not least the price of non-physical copies of games. Other posters on this thread have pointed to other Steam problems. However, where Securom fails and Steam triumphs is the way it presents itself to the public: when you use Steam, you know what you?re signing up for, or at least Valve have proved capable of nurturing this perception, whilst companies employing Securom have failed miserably to gain support within the community. Is it all simply a question of marketing your security in the correct manner?

d) The article closes with calls for further input from the general public. I thought that this was the purpose behind this thread.

Chizow?s moving goal-posts

When chizow feels that he/she has become cornered, he/she consistently attempts to shift discussion away from Securom to a discussion of DRM at a general level. I can attack Securom and yet be willing to put up with DRM (Oblivion is the example I normally use).

chizow when confronted with evidence that the next Sims release will not employ Securom:

Originally posted by: chizow
Shrug, we'll see when its released, not that it matters much either way, its still DRM with both a disc and serial key component. And again, I won't care either way, as DRM doesn't cause me problems beyond the typical inconvenience of having to enter a CD-key and insert a disc.

[my bold]

You see, chizow, to some of us it does matter, it matters a lot.

Have a good weekend everyone (yes, chizow, even you)

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Yep. The game was cracked and pirated, therefore the DRM was ineffective at stopping piracy. Once again.. The reason it sees a .1% piracy rate is because a purchased copy is far superior to a pirated one. What about that don't you understand?

Amazing. It really has come down to you claiming WoW's DRM has failed because 0.1% play on pirate servers. Once again, no one has ever claimed DRM (or anything) needs to function at 100% efficicacy in order to be effective, especially when the original claim is that DRM is more effective than no DRM at all. Honestly this might be the most easily defeated strawman argument in history, not just in this application, but in any context.

Oh, lol.. Of course the answer is that they have weaker DRM so that's "obviously" why they choose to use no DRM at all, right? And that proves that everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary (as you claim) how again?

Yep, it is seen as necessary, and while Ubisoft has traditionally used weaker forms of DRM, HAWX does in fact have DRM requiring a serial key. I don't think you understand what I meant by no DRM on Prince of Persia. It has absolutely no DRM whatsoever. No CD-check. No copy protection. No serial key.

I buy a retail version of Sins of Solar Empire, I install it, I play it. If I want to play online I need the serial number, if not, no DRM whatsoever. Maybe you should make sure to research this before you run "your" mouth.

And what is a serial key? DRM is it not? If you want to play online, or download the latest content and patches, you need to authenticate through Impulse, do you not? More DRM. Its obvious the best forms of DRM are actually the ones that convince users that they're not DRM.

Links to threads agreeing with your point of view that everyone in the industry sees DRM as effective and necessary.. humm.. lets see.. 0

I've already linked plenty of external evidence backing my point, the very least you could do would be to search threads on these very forums if you cared so much. If you want me to dig them up, we'll certainly have to up the ante.....perhaps our rights to post on PC piracy and DRM in the PC Games forum?

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Typically, rootkits act to obscure their presence on the system through subversion or evasion of standard operating system security mechanisms. Often, they are Trojans as well, thus fooling users into believing they are safe to run on their systems. Techniques used to accomplish this can include concealing running processes from monitoring programs, or hiding files or system data from the operating system. [my bold]

[source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit]

Ya, by that definition Windows is a rootkit as it hides folders, registry entries etc etc. The problem with your example is that the symptoms alone cannot define it as such, only its actions or intent can classify it as a rootkit or malware.

This is where the Securom apologists become cornered and offer one of the following defences:

a) the remnants are innocuous and are no cause for concern
b) other programs employ similar methods

That's because they are innocuous and no cause for concern, they only remain on the system in order to continue to protect the copyright holder's IP.

For the reasons outlined above, I will continue to refer to Securom as a rootkit/malware. Moreover, it clearly aggravates the Securom apologists.

And I'll continue to point and laugh at you, as claiming SecuROM is a root kit without any proof other than the fact it exists clearly undermines your arguments. :laugh:

a) The author draws attention to the following in relation to Securom:

?It is known to conflict with certain brands of optical drives. The reasons for this are not mentioned on the SecuROM site, but it's a hardware-level incompatibility. There are workarounds such as noted in this thread, and this issue is discussed further in the Conclusion section.?

I reported issues with my drive as a result of the Securom on Bioshock. However, chizow has repeatedly called this a fabrication and referred to me as a liar on several occasions. Can you imagine if he/she worked for the technical support at EA?

Customer: I?ve got a problem with?
Tech Support: Liar
Customer: But?
Tech support: Liar

At least the author of the article has admitted that this is a ?verifiable? (to use chizow?s terms) problem, so whether or not other forum users believe that it happened to me is largely irrelevant. Incidentally, the author promised to discuss this issue further in the conclusion section, but I didn?t find any further discussion. Maybe I was just tired.

Which is why I asked very early on for details of your "problem" as the actual documented issues were isolated to a very specific drive. There would be no reason for a CSR to believe you a liar, of course I can't say the same as you've repeatedly shown a propensity to lie, spread misinformation, pose poorly researched opinions, etc.

b) In my opinion, the author looses a lot of creditability by citing EA CEO John Riccitiello, an individual who should never be used in support of any argument.

If you think he's lying, join up in any of the handful of floundering Spore class action suits and request the court to subpoena the data he's citing. Its really that simple. Until then, his data > your BS.

d) The article closes with calls for further input from the general public. I thought that this was the purpose behind this thread.

And again, I don't have any issues with a discussion of the actual facts, merits and faults of DRM. As this thread has repeatedly shown however, some people are more intent on spreading misinformation and lies over the evidence and facts.

Chizow?s moving goal-posts

When chizow feels that he/she has become cornered, he/she consistently attempts to shift discussion away from Securom to a discussion of DRM at a general level. I can attack Securom and yet be willing to put up with DRM (Oblivion is the example I normally use).

Moving goal posts? Hardly, I've stated numerous times I prefer SecuROM over Steam because I haven't had any problems with SecuROM (or Steam for that matter), but find SecuROM to be much less restrictive and invasive. But of course much of that opinion comes from actually understanding how SecuROM, and especially the most hated online activation versions, actually works.

chizow when confronted with evidence that the next Sims release will not employ Securom:

Originally posted by: chizow
Shrug, we'll see when its released, not that it matters much either way, its still DRM with both a disc and serial key component. And again, I won't care either way, as DRM doesn't cause me problems beyond the typical inconvenience of having to enter a CD-key and insert a disc.

[my bold]

You see, chizow, to some of us it does matter, it matters a lot.

Have a good weekend everyone (yes, chizow, even you)

Yes, that quote further shows I'm generally indifferent to DRM as there's no form that's significantly more or less convenient, intrusive, or preferably than the other. But of course this is because I've accepted long ago that DRM isn't going away and that any DRM is more effective than no DRM.

I skipped over a lot so don't feel offended if I didn't reply to any particular point, its hard to read a block of text trying to make a point that could've been made in a sentence or two.