Valve's Steamworks makes DRM/Crippleware Obsolete

[chizow]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM

:explained;

In the context of what was being discussed- EA, Spore, Sims 3 and continued use of SecuROM, nothing said above is inaccurate.

 

[mindcycle]

lol Nice post NoWhereM. That's exactly the point I was trying to make. That's a nice easy way to read it all.

I guess if chizow doesn't understand what's wrong with what he said, and clearly he's unwilling to admit the mistake due to ego or whatever, then chances are he never will. Oh well, it is kinda funny to see him try and defend it if nothing else.

 

[mindcycle]

Add a couple more to the DRM free list.. http://news.bigdownload.com/20...ed-drm-free-in-the-us/

I just picked up Dark Sector after learning it was DRM free when I was compiling the above list, and for only $20 too (and that's not a sale price).

Oh, and here's an interesting article I found that's worth a look IMO. http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/1...e-off-with-piracy.html

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
lol Nice post NoWhereM. That's exactly the point I was trying to make. That's a nice easy way to read it all.

I guess if chizow doesn't understand what's wrong with what he said, and clearly he's unwilling to admit the mistake due to ego or whatever, then chances are he never will. Oh well, it is kinda funny to see him try and defend it if nothing else.

LMAO, defend what mistake? Grammar and sentence structure? Its not my problem if you misunderstand my point when its plainly obvious what I was referring to in context of the topic being discussed. That's very different of course than your constant lies and misinformation about issues and examples fundamental to the discussion about DRM and SecuROM.

 

[Red Irish]

Hi folks,
below, I have reproduced an article found on the following site: http://gdc.gamespot.com/story/6206551/

chizow refuses to accept any criticism of Securom and obviously has a vested interest in the continued existence of this malware. Interestingly, he/she consistently uses the need for DRM as a counter-argument to attacks on Securom, despite the fact that most of us are willing to put up with DRM where it does not prove too invasive, does not represent a risk to our systems and does not appear to be more concerned with attacking the second-hand sales market or herding us all towards consoles. This was exposed in the exchanges above, where chizow's deliberate attempts to confuse Securom with any form of DRM were brought to light. Moreover, chizow repeatedly quotes developers in his/her attempts to defend Securom (once again conveniently confusing Securom with any form of DRM):

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary.

Subsequent "minor clarifications" aside, in response to this, and once again proving that chizow is wrong and a user with a clear pro-Securom agenda, I present a verbatim reproduction of the aforementioned article wherein a developer provides his opinion of DRM. Chizow will undoubtedly respond by stating that this is a small independent developer and of no real consequence, which only goes to prove that large companies, such as EA, are lying and out of touch with their client base. Bear in mind that this is a developer speaking, with a vested interest in reducing piracy; however, a developer who is not a Sony/EA puppet (such as chizow) and who is willing to speak the truth rather than manipulate his client base and enforce unnecessary woes on his potential customers. Interestingly, his views are much more damning than my own (I am willing to put up with disk checks). Anyway here's the article:

Digital-rights management remains a touchy topic for both gamers and game makers, with some antipiracy measures even ending up in legal kerfuffles. But Ron Carmel, whose indie game company 2D Boy was responsible for last year's puzzle hit World of Goo, has a simple solution: ditch DRM completely.

Carmel, speaking at this year's Game Developers Conference, says implementing DRM is pointless, particularly for cash-strapped indie developers. "Don't bother with DRM--it's a waste of time. You just end up giving the DRM provider money. Anything that is of interest gets cracked, and the cracked version ends up having a better user experience than the legit version because you don't have to input in some 32-character serial number," he said.

"Anybody who wants the game is likely to find it on BitTorrent sites. It's going to get cracked even with DRM, it's going to be available very quickly, so we don't see the point in having DRM. Piracy rates have been released before, and there's no difference between World of Goo and other games."

Carmel, whose talk outlined the business decisions made with World of Goo, had another major piece of advice for other indies: don't get involved with publishers. Carmel says the revenue from World of Goo came overwhelmingly from digital distribution, with retail sales accounting for less than three percent of total sales.

"Retail distribution--which is what publishers are good at--doesn't generate many sales for indie games. Go with digital distribution--you won't need a publisher for this. Self-fund your game--and when you get to retail, go for per-country flat-fee deals."

I apologise for another long post chizow, given that you criticised me a few posts back for including too much text. Bear in mind that texts that rise above short, monsyllabic statements do not represent an impediment to all forum users.

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Hi folks,
below, I have reproduced an article found on the following site: http://gdc.gamespot.com/story/6206551/

chizow refuses to accept any criticism of Securom and obviously has a vested interest in the continued existence of this malware. Interestingly, he/she consistently uses the need for DRM as a counter-argument to attacks on Securom, despite the fact that most of us are willing to put up with DRM where it does not prove too invasive, does not represent a risk to our systems and does not appear to be more concerned with attacking the second-hand sales market or herding us all towards consoles. This was exposed in the exchanges above, where chizow's deliberate attempts to confuse Securom with any form of DRM were brought to light. Moreover, chizow repeatedly quotes developers in his/her attempts to defend Securom (once again conveniently confusing Securom with any form of DRM):

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary.

Subsequent "minor clarifications" aside, in response to this, and once again proving that chizow is wrong and a user with a clear pro-Securom agenda, I present a verbatim reproduction of the aforementioned article wherein a developer provides his opinion of DRM. Chizow will undoubtedly respond by stating that this is a small independent developer and of no real consequence, which only goes to prove that large companies, such as EA, are lying and out of touch with their client base. Bear in mind that this is a developer speaking, with a vested interest in reducing piracy; however, a developer who is not a Sony/EA puppet (such as chizow) and who is willing to speak the truth rather than manipulate his client base and enforce unnecessary woes on his potential customers. Interestingly, his views are much more damning than my own (I am willing to put up with disk checks). Anyway here's the article:

Digital-rights management remains a touchy topic for both gamers and game makers, with some antipiracy measures even ending up in legal kerfuffles. But Ron Carmel, whose indie game company 2D Boy was responsible for last year's puzzle hit World of Goo, has a simple solution: ditch DRM completely.

Carmel, speaking at this year's Game Developers Conference, says implementing DRM is pointless, particularly for cash-strapped indie developers. "Don't bother with DRM--it's a waste of time. You just end up giving the DRM provider money. Anything that is of interest gets cracked, and the cracked version ends up having a better user experience than the legit version because you don't have to input in some 32-character serial number," he said.

"Anybody who wants the game is likely to find it on BitTorrent sites. It's going to get cracked even with DRM, it's going to be available very quickly, so we don't see the point in having DRM. Piracy rates have been released before, and there's no difference between World of Goo and other games."

Carmel, whose talk outlined the business decisions made with World of Goo, had another major piece of advice for other indies: don't get involved with publishers. Carmel says the revenue from World of Goo came overwhelmingly from digital distribution, with retail sales accounting for less than three percent of total sales.

"Retail distribution--which is what publishers are good at--doesn't generate many sales for indie games. Go with digital distribution--you won't need a publisher for this. Self-fund your game--and when you get to retail, go for per-country flat-fee deals."

I apologise for another long post chizow, given that you criticised me a few posts back for including too much text. Bear in mind that texts that rise above short, monsyllabic statements do not represent an impediment to all forum users.

:thumbsup:

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: NoWhereM

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary.

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry [still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM] sees it as effective and necessary.

Originally posted by: chizow
So what we have is a minor clarification and trivial difference in meaning compared to countless lies, misinformation and BS from you. Now who's detached from reality?

Originally posted by: chizow
LMAO, you obviously don't seem to understand. Arguments based on lies, deceit and misinformation are easily defeated and make for easy sport.

Originally posted by: chizow

In the context of what was being discussed- EA, Spore, Sims 3 and continued use of SecuROM, nothing said above is inaccurate.

Amen to that.

Another clear example of those shifting goal-posts I referred to previously: it's difficult to debate with a poster who constantly shifts the topic of discussion and who is even willing to attempt to re-write what he/she had previously written. Clearly chizow's only interest is to derail any thread that attempts to address the issue of DRM.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
I'm unable to hit your link at work right now. My point was not that there is no compelling evidence; it's that, as I have said repeatedly, there are many factors that affect sales and piracy rates, not just DRM. Unless you've got a magical time machine, you don't know what the future holds for a given release based on its protection scheme. To definitively state what the outcome will be is disingenuous.

That's a ridiculous argument about not being able to reach a conclusion without knowing the result of impossible simultaneous outcomes. You don't need a time machine or the ability to bend time and space to come to a reasonable conclusion about the efficacy of a solution. In any case, feel free to read over that link, starting about half way down to see solid numbers across the board comparing piracy across platforms and titles.

It's not ridiculous. You can conclude whatever you like, but the fact remains that you have no inherent insight beyond what you can extrapolate from past events. Based on evidence, you may believe that these forms of DRM will actually reduce the effects of piracy for new releases, but you can't know that. It's a trivial point and an obvious one; I don't even know why you would argue this.

This thread jumped the shark a long time ago anyway. I don't think anybody's said anything about Steamworks/Steam for days. Bottom line, DRM tends to suck for the paying end user. The tolerable level of suck differs from person to person and the effectiveness of each form of DRM varies in how well it protects against piracy. If enough people complain, publishers may change their mind. Otherwise, we're probably stuck with what we've got.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
I'm unable to hit your link at work right now. My point was not that there is no compelling evidence; it's that, as I have said repeatedly, there are many factors that affect sales and piracy rates, not just DRM. Unless you've got a magical time machine, you don't know what the future holds for a given release based on its protection scheme. To definitively state what the outcome will be is disingenuous.

That's a ridiculous argument about not being able to reach a conclusion without knowing the result of impossible simultaneous outcomes. You don't need a time machine or the ability to bend time and space to come to a reasonable conclusion about the efficacy of a solution. In any case, feel free to read over that link, starting about half way down to see solid numbers across the board comparing piracy across platforms and titles.

It's not ridiculous. You can conclude whatever you like, but the fact remains that you have no inherent insight beyond what you can extrapolate from past events. Based on evidence, you may believe that these forms of DRM will actually reduce the effects of piracy for new releases, but you can't know that. It's a trivial point and an obvious one; I don't even know why you would argue this.

This thread jumped the shark a long time ago anyway. I don't think anybody's said anything about Steamworks/Steam for days. Bottom line, DRM tends to suck for the paying end user. The tolerable level of suck differs from person to person and the effectiveness of each form of DRM varies in how well it protects against piracy. If enough people complain, publishers may change their mind. Otherwise, we're probably stuck with what we've got. [my bold]

Yes, chizow has spared no efforts to ensure that conversation relating to DRM turns into meaningless bickering on this and other threads.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
<other stuff>

Ron Carmel:
"Anybody who wants the game is likely to find it on BitTorrent sites. It's going to get cracked even with DRM, it's going to be available very quickly, so we don't see the point in having DRM. Piracy rates have been released before, and there's no difference between World of Goo and other games."

While this is certainly a departure from your usual posting (lies and made up BS), its just Ron's opinion, and one that clearly isn't rooted in any facts. It was shown and proven pages ago that games with DRM are pirated at much lower rates than games with no DRM.

His statement about "no difference between World of Goo and other games" is provably false as he has claimed World of Goo suffered 80-90% piracy rates, whereas the Most Pirated Game of 2008, Spore, sold more copies than that total within the first 3 weeks. The only game on that list that I see suffering similar piracy rates as World of Goo, Assassins Creed, also had no DRM.

But like I said, we'll see what happens. When developers and publishers who have been using DRM suddenly stop using it you might have a point, but until then its obvious they see it as necessary and effective in preventing piracy.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
It's not ridiculous. You can conclude whatever you like, but the fact remains that you have no inherent insight beyond what you can extrapolate from past events. Based on evidence, you may believe that these forms of DRM will actually reduce the effects of piracy for new releases, but you can't know that. It's a trivial point and an obvious one; I don't even know why you would argue this.

And there has been plenty of evidence allowing you to extrapolate past events. Claiming you can't come to any conclusion simply because of impossible simultaneous outcomes is ridiculous. In any case, if you did ever get around to reading that link, you would've seen the next best thing, multi-platform game sales where the consoles with much more stringent DRM sell more copies of the same games while suffering exponentially lower piracy rates.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Red Irish
<other stuff>

Ron Carmel:
"Anybody who wants the game is likely to find it on BitTorrent sites. It's going to get cracked even with DRM, it's going to be available very quickly, so we don't see the point in having DRM. Piracy rates have been released before, and there's no difference between World of Goo and other games."

While this is certainly a departure from your usual posting (lies and made up BS), its just Ron's opinion, and one that clearly isn't rooted in any facts. It was shown and proven pages ago that games with DRM are pirated at much lower rates than games with no DRM.

His statement about "no difference between World of Goo and other games" is provably false as he has claimed World of Goo suffered 80-90% piracy rates, whereas the Most Pirated Game of 2008, Spore, sold more copies than that total within the first 3 weeks. The only game on that list that I see suffering similar piracy rates as World of Goo, Assassins Creed, also had no DRM.

But like I said, we'll see what happens. When developers and publishers who have been using DRM suddenly stop using it you might have a point, but until then its obvious they see it as necessary and effective in preventing piracy.

chizow, having been exposed as a liar and someone who is willing to manipulate facts, figures and even their own posts in an attempt to derail a thread on a serious issue, I hope you won't feel offended when I ignore you from this point onwards. I urge others to do the same. I am surprised you have the gall to continue to attempt to maintain the façade that you are a serious poster, when, if you had any shame, you would have slouched off somewhere with your tail firmly between your legs.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Yes, chizow has spared no efforts to ensure that conversation relating to DRM turns into meaningless bickering on this and other threads.

Meaningless bickering? I think my contributions have shown quite clearly that the most vocal minority often doesn't know or understand the very issues they're complaining about, often resorting to lies and misinformation to further their point or deflecting attention away from the issues by focusing on peripheral nonsense like grammar, semantics, or personal attacks.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
chizow, having been exposed as a liar and someone who is willing to manipulate facts, figures and even their own posts in an attempt to derail a thread on a serious issue, I hope you won't feel offended when I ignore you from this point onwards. I urge others to do the same. I am surprised you have the gall to continue to attempt to maintain the façade that you are a serious poster, when, if you had any shame, you would have slouched off somewhere with your tail firmly between your legs.

LMAO cya, another troll flamed, broiled and served. :laugh:

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
It's not ridiculous. You can conclude whatever you like, but the fact remains that you have no inherent insight beyond what you can extrapolate from past events. Based on evidence, you may believe that these forms of DRM will actually reduce the effects of piracy for new releases, but you can't know that. It's a trivial point and an obvious one; I don't even know why you would argue this.

And there has been plenty of evidence allowing you to extrapolate past events. Claiming you can't come to any conclusion simply because of impossible simultaneous outcomes is ridiculous. In any case, if you did ever get around to reading that link, you would've seen the next best thing, multi-platform game sales where the consoles with much more stringent DRM sell more copies of the same games while suffering exponentially lower piracy rates.

You can say it's "ridiculous" as many times as you want; it doesn't make it true. Your confidence may increase with more data to support you, but you cannot make a 100% assured prediction.

Seriously, why are you still pushing this? If our positions were reversed here, you'd be calling me an idiot for willfully misunderstanding. I'm not even arguing against your claim that various forms of DRM might tend to hinder piracy more effectively, at least around release time. I'm saying that other factors also play into sales and piracy than just DRM, and it's impossible to anticipate success or failure based only on a title's copyright protection. That's it.

Your link is an interesting read -- thank you for sharing it -- but it's completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
You can say it's "ridiculous" as many times as you want; it doesn't make it true. Your confidence may increase with more data to support you, but you cannot make a 100% assured prediction.

Seriously, why are you still pushing this? If our positions were reversed here, you'd be calling me an idiot for willfully misunderstanding. I'm not even arguing against your claim that various forms of DRM might tend to hinder piracy more effectively, at least around release time. I'm saying that other factors also play into sales and piracy than just DRM, and it's impossible to anticipate success or failure based only on a title's copyright protection. That's it.

Your link is an interesting read -- thank you for sharing it -- but it's completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

Where did I say it would give 100% assurance? The fact you're claiming a requirement of 100% assurance is what makes your statement ridiculous, as that standard of evidence will never be met. This is certainly similar to previous claims about DRM not being effective because they're not 100% effective, which is clearly a ridiculous claim particularly when the original assertion was that DRM is more effective than no DRM at all.

As for role reversals, well, I've yet to see any claims supported by evidence and heavy correlation between multiple data sets that all lead to the conclusion that more effective forms of DRM are more effective in preventing piracy. The link I provided directly supports that.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
chizow, having been exposed as a liar and someone who is willing to manipulate facts, figures and even their own posts in an attempt to derail a thread on a serious issue, I hope you won't feel offended when I ignore you from this point onwards. I urge others to do the same. I am surprised you have the gall to continue to attempt to maintain the façade that you are a serious poster, when, if you had any shame, you would have slouched off somewhere with your tail firmly between your legs.

Yep, my sentiments exactly. Of course chizow will use this to prove that he's somehow "won" this debate, but all of us here know what's really up.. he's willing to post more nonsense than anyone else, so that somehow proves he's right.. lol

Now he can post replies to himself to further convince.. I guess himself, of his stance on DRM since that's about all that he's been doing in here to begin with.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
This thread jumped the shark a long time ago anyway. I don't think anybody's said anything about Steamworks/Steam for days. Bottom line, DRM tends to suck for the paying end user. The tolerable level of suck differs from person to person and the effectiveness of each form of DRM varies in how well it protects against piracy. If enough people complain, publishers may change their mind. Otherwise, we're probably stuck with what we've got.

:thumbsup:

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Yep, my sentiments exactly. Of course chizow will use this to prove that he's somehow "won" this debate, but all of us here know what's really up.. he's willing to post more nonsense than anyone else, so that somehow proves he's right.. lol

Now he can post replies to himself to further convince.. I guess himself, of his stance on DRM since that's about all that he's been doing in here to begin with.

Oh there's no doubt I've won this debate, but I certainly couldn't have done it without contributions from the two fo you.

I've very clearly shown numerous times throughout this thread that neither of you actually know the details of how SecuROM works, which is of course surprising given its "so important" a topic and one you so vigorously complain about. I've shown through your own experiences that problems and complaints over DRM are from the vocal minority and even then, are clearly overstated and exaggerated. And most importantly, I've shown the degree to which you're both willing to lie and spread misinformation to prove your point.

But don't worry, there's no need for me to gloat, the satisfaction comes from knowing you won't be able to hide behind the guise of ignorance in the future if you choose to perpetuate the lies exposed here. This thread will serve as proof, so if you continue to use such methods of spreading misinformation and inaccuracies, I'll certainly look to have adminstrative action taken.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
..DRM are from the vocal minority and even then, are clearly overstated and exaggerated.

Yes, you've clearly shown that pro-DRM stances like the one you preach here are coming from the vocal minority (you) in these forums.

Originally posted by: chizow
I'll certainly look to have adminstrative action taken.

lol, that just about wraps up this one for me. I'm surprised someone like yourself, who seems fairly intelligent, would resort to the juvenile angle of bringing "authority" into this discussion. Clearly I as well as you, and any other poster here for that matter, has the right to post opinions about anything they so desire as long as it's not breaking any of the forum rules.

Wow, seriously, that's just laughable..

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Yes, you've clearly shown that pro-DRM stances like the one you preach here are coming from the vocal minority (you) in these forums.

Uh, no, they're the silent majority because they 1) don't have issues with DRM and 2) dont' care enough to be confrontational about it.

lol, that just about wraps up this one for me. I'm surprised someone like yourself, who seems fairly intelligent, would resort to the juvenile angle of bringing "authority" into this discussion. Clearly I as well as you, and any other poster here for that matter, has the right to post opinions about anything they so desire as long as it's not breaking any of the forum rules.

Wow, seriously, that's just laughable..

Laughable and juvenile? Uh no. If you don't have a problem with spreading lies and misinformation without conscience, that's your problem. Now that I've clearly shown as much, continuing to do so knowingly clearly goes against TOS. So in summary, it saves me the hassle of having to prove you a liar or intent on spreading misinformation over and over again.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
continuing to do so knowingly clearly goes against TOS. So in summary, it saves me the hassle of having to prove you a liar or intent on spreading misinformation over and over again.

lol man. Good luck with that. :thumbsup: