Valve's Steamworks makes DRM/Crippleware Obsolete

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: chizow

Chizow?s moving goal-posts

When chizow feels that he/she has become cornered, he/she consistently attempts to shift discussion away from Securom to a discussion of DRM at a general level. I can attack Securom and yet be willing to put up with DRM (Oblivion is the example I normally use).

Moving goal posts? Hardly, I've stated numerous times I prefer SecuROM over Steam because I haven't had any problems with SecuROM (or Steam for that matter), but find SecuROM to be much less restrictive and invasive. But of course much of that opinion comes from actually understanding how SecuROM, and especially the most hated online activation versions, actually works.

chizow when confronted with evidence that the next Sims release will not employ Securom:

Originally posted by: chizow
Shrug, we'll see when its released, not that it matters much either way, its still DRM with both a disc and serial key component. And again, I won't care either way, as DRM doesn't cause me problems beyond the typical inconvenience of having to enter a CD-key and insert a disc.

[my bold]

You see, chizow, to some of us it does matter, it matters a lot.

Have a good weekend everyone (yes, chizow, even you)

Yes, that quote further shows I'm generally indifferent to DRM as there's no form that's significantly more or less convenient, intrusive, or preferably than the other. But of course this is because I've accepted long ago that DRM isn't going away and that any DRM is more effective than no DRM.

I skipped over a lot so don't feel offended if I didn't reply to any particular point, its hard to read a block of text trying to make a point that could've been made in a sentence or two.

Chizow, you are deliberately displaying an inability to understand my point. I'll keep it nice and simple this time, no blocks of text, so that you can focus on what I'm saying:

I attack Securom.
You state that DRM is necessary.
I agree, and point to Oblivion

You see, if you are genuinely "generally indifferent to DRM as there's no form that's significantly more or less convenient, intrusive, or preferably than the other", what's your problem with getting rid of Securom and returning to the system employed on Oblivion? If you have no problem, all of your posts have no point whatsoever, because you agreed with me from the very start.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Chizow, you are deliberately displaying an inability to understand my point. I'll keep it nice and simple this time, no blocks of text, so that you can focus on what I'm saying:

I attack Securom.
You state that DRM is necessary.
I agree, and point to Oblivion

You see, if you are genuinely "generally indifferent to DRM as there's no form that's significantly more or less convenient, intrusive, or preferably than the other", what's your problem with getting rid of Securom and returning to the system employed on Oblivion? If you have no problem, all of your posts have no point whatsoever, because you agreed with me from the very start.

And once again, where have I stated preference for what publishers use for DRM over another? I don't care what they use, my view is that DRM is necessary and is more effective than no DRM. Where have I stated "Oblivion's DRM isn't good enough"? Oh right I haven't. That's more than I can say for you though, as Oblivion's serial key + disc check DRM clearly falls out of your scope for acceptable forms of DRM:

DRM needs to be knived, kicked, slashed, burned and beaten. The only form in which I am willing to accept it is in the form of a simple CD-check. Is my stance clear now?

So which is it? The simple CD-check? Or is Oblivion now OK in your ever-shifting book?

In my case of course, it wouldn't matter at all if they went back to Oblivion's form of DRM as it wouldn't impact my decision to buy a title in the least. I buy games for the game itself, not due to some overly paranoid and poorly formulated opinion about the DRM it employs. The only time DRM/content delivery is even considered is if I have a choice, in which case I've clearly stated I prefer SecuROM over something like Steam.

 

[Red Irish]

Sorry chizow, you can't get off that easily. You're clearly contradicting yourself and I just exposed you.

 

[Red Irish]

Apologies again, I forgot to include the smiley that you are so fond of posting:

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Sorry chizow, you can't get off that easily. You're clearly contradicting yourself and I just exposed you.

LMAO, once again, where have I contradicted myself? Or is that your attempt at deflecting attention away from a quote where you clearly contradict yourself? You won't see me condemning Oblivion's DRM anywhere, because again, the difference to the end-user like me would be transparent. And any form of DRM would be more effective than no DRM.

Edit: apology accepted, its clearly obvious both you and mindcycle are just trolling at this point and trying to bury your lies and misinformation by spamming nonsense. Don't worry, I've got the relevant posts clearly detailing your lies bookmarked for future reference. [/quote]

 

[Red Irish]

I contradict myself? I have stated that I am willing to put up with Oblivion's DRM from the very start. I see, you are using the "knive, kick, burn" quote as a last-ditch attempt to defend yourself as you flounder and drown in your own arguments. You are taking both me and yourself way too seriously:

Keep all the references you want, the conversation that has just transpired will prove sufficent for me.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
No, you don't.

Yes, I do. I've asked numerous times for evidence showing titles with the most offensive forms of DRM everyone complains about approaching the piracy rates of games with no DRM at all. You won't find any and its obvious why. Games that have no protections at all will be pirated the most. Its just common sense really.

It doesn't matter what you think is "common sense". The point is, you cannot know that a particular title would sell more or be pirated less by including some form of DRM. It's pure speculation.

No I don't work for EA, SecuROM, or any of the other dozen game companies listed in the SecuROM Games list. The thought process behind these accusations goes something like this:

1) I dun liek wut u haz say!!11elevne!!
2) Ur werkin for [insert company name accuser opposes]!!!ne!1

Someone can't find fault in an argument, so instead of arguing the topic at hand, they accuse the person for being a shill or employee of the company in question. This really should be made into an intarweb's law, its not quite ad hominem, similar in some ways to Godwin's Law which was invoked early on, but not nearly as extreme.

I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was asking based on your vehemence and ubiquity when it comes to any discussion about SecuROM. That was not my thought process, and I don't think I make that many thought-typos. I know a lot of people have suggested that you're so involved because you're actually an employee; I just wanted to ask instead of accuse. Appreciate the overblown response though.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
I contradict myself? I have stated that I am willing to put up with Oblivion's DRM from the very start. I see, you are using the "knive, kick, burn" quote as a last-ditch attempt to defend yourself as you flounder and drown in your own arguments. You are taking both me and yourself way too seriously:

Keep all the references you want, the conversation that has just transpired will prove sufficent for me.

LOL, arguing with you isn't quite akin to taking candy from a baby, more like getting a 5 year old to confess to lying.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Red Irish
I contradict myself? I have stated that I am willing to put up with Oblivion's DRM from the very start. I see, you are using the "knive, kick, burn" quote as a last-ditch attempt to defend yourself as you flounder and drown in your own arguments. You are taking both me and yourself way too seriously:

Keep all the references you want, the conversation that has just transpired will prove sufficent for me.

LOL, arguing with you isn't quite akin to taking candy from a baby, more like getting a 5 year old to confess to lying.

I'll leave the assignation of the "winner" of this little exchange to our fellow forum contributors. More importantly, you forgot to include your smiley, your arguments are worthless without that.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
It doesn't matter what you think is "common sense". The point is, you cannot know that a particular title would sell more or be pirated less by including some form of DRM. It's pure speculation.

I've already broken down this argument countless times. If you really want to get a good understanding of the Scale of Piracy without relying on my "common sense" conclusions, read that link first.

What you will find is a common, recurring, and easily verifiable pattern with regard to the effectiveness of DRM and piracy rates:

MMO/Subscripion-based > Consoles > Traditional forms of PC DRM > No DRM

Beyond the strong correlation between effectiveness of DRM and piracy rates, there's the compelling comparison of sales and piracy rates for cross-platform titles. What you will find is that the console versions not only sell many times more copies, they are also pirated exponentially less than the PC version.

I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was asking based on your vehemence and ubiquity when it comes to any discussion about SecuROM. That was not my thought process, and I don't think I make that many thought-typos. I know a lot of people have suggested that you're so involved because you're actually an employee; I just wanted to ask instead of accuse. Appreciate the overblown response though.

I didn't say that was your thought process, I said that was the thought process behind such accusations and you will find with few exception that such accusations are levied only after I've continuously addressed and defeated their claims. This leaves them with seemingly no alternative other than to question the my motives rather than the veracity of my arguments as an attempt to undermine my credibility, when in actuality, it only weakens theirs.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Red Irish,

Stop arguing with that troll chizow! I asked you some good questions in your "Securom on Games" thread.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
It doesn't matter what you think is "common sense". The point is, you cannot know that a particular title would sell more or be pirated less by including some form of DRM. It's pure speculation.

I've already broken down this argument countless times. If you really want to get a good understanding of the Scale of Piracy without relying on my "common sense" conclusions, read that link first.

What you will find is a common, recurring, and easily verifiable pattern with regard to the effectiveness of DRM and piracy rates:

MMO/Subscripion-based > Consoles > Traditional forms of PC DRM > No DRM

Beyond the strong correlation between effectiveness of DRM and piracy rates, there's the compelling comparison of sales and piracy rates for cross-platform titles. What you will find is that the console versions not only sell many times more copies, they are also pirated exponentially less than the PC version.

I'm unable to hit your link at work right now. My point was not that there is no compelling evidence; it's that, as I have said repeatedly, there are many factors that affect sales and piracy rates, not just DRM. Unless you've got a magical time machine, you don't know what the future holds for a given release based on its protection scheme. To definitively state what the outcome will be is disingenuous.

 

[mindcycle]

Below is a statement from chizow that he's avoided answering when I question him about it. I'll just leave it up for you guys to check out and decide for yourselves. Red Irish has already exposed this as well, all he's doing at this point is contradicting himself.

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary.

"my bold"

I think you guys would probably agree that there's no use arguing with him any longer if he won't acknowledge the fact that the above statement from him is clearly wrong. So I ask you.. who's really the one spreading FUD and misinformation here?

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Red Irish
I contradict myself? I have stated that I am willing to put up with Oblivion's DRM from the very start. I see, you are using the "knive, kick, burn" quote as a last-ditch attempt to defend yourself as you flounder and drown in your own arguments. You are taking both me and yourself way too seriously:

Keep all the references you want, the conversation that has just transpired will prove sufficent for me.

LOL, arguing with you isn't quite akin to taking candy from a baby, more like getting a 5 year old to confess to lying.

I'll leave the assignation of the "winner" of this little exchange to our fellow forum contributors. More importantly, you forgot to include your smiley, your arguments are worthless without that.

lol.. Not having a huge ego, like chizow, i'm going to go ahead and state that I agree with some of his points (as I have already in the past). For instance, DRM isn't going away for the most part, certain people (clueless of not) still believe it's necessary, and some forms are transparent and not that big of deal.

So, i'll just add that for now and wait and see what his response to my above post is, even though i'm quite sure I already know what it will be.

 

[Regs]

Originally posted by: sactoking
Doesn't give a whole heck of a lot of info on how the CEG works.

From what I hear it sends out a probe to enter your brain while your sleeping to collect data, and make you immune deficient to viruses and bacteria.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
I'm unable to hit your link at work right now. My point was not that there is no compelling evidence; it's that, as I have said repeatedly, there are many factors that affect sales and piracy rates, not just DRM. Unless you've got a magical time machine, you don't know what the future holds for a given release based on its protection scheme. To definitively state what the outcome will be is disingenuous.

That's a ridiculous argument about not being able to reach a conclusion without knowing the result of impossible simultaneous outcomes. You don't need a time machine or the ability to bend time and space to come to a reasonable conclusion about the efficacy of a solution. In any case, feel free to read over that link, starting about half way down to see solid numbers across the board comparing piracy across platforms and titles.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Below is a statement from chizow that he's avoided answering when I question him about it. I'll just leave it up for you guys to check out and decide for yourselves. Red Irish has already exposed this as well, all he's doing at this point is contradicting himself.

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary.

"my bold"

I think you guys would probably agree that there's no use arguing with him any longer if he won't acknowledge the fact that the above statement from him is clearly wrong. So I ask you.. who's really the one spreading FUD and misinformation here?

Where am I contradicting myself? When you see major publishers removing all forms of DRM from their games, let me know. I've already answered the question and once again shown you really don't know what you're talking about. In both of your "No DRM" examples that supposedly "proved me wrong", you've once again shown how poorly researched and informed your arguments are, as both HAWX and Sins of a Solar Empire do in fact employ DRM. So what's the score on misinformation now? If we combine the number of times I've shown you and Red Irish to be provably wrong or flat out dishonest, we'd certainly be coming close to a Mercy Rule here. :laugh:

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Originally posted by: Red Irish

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Red Irish
I contradict myself? I have stated that I am willing to put up with Oblivion's DRM from the very start. I see, you are using the "knive, kick, burn" quote as a last-ditch attempt to defend yourself as you flounder and drown in your own arguments. You are taking both me and yourself way too seriously:

Keep all the references you want, the conversation that has just transpired will prove sufficent for me.

LOL, arguing with you isn't quite akin to taking candy from a baby, more like getting a 5 year old to confess to lying.

I'll leave the assignation of the "winner" of this little exchange to our fellow forum contributors. More importantly, you forgot to include your smiley, your arguments are worthless without that.

lol.. Not having a huge ego, like chizow, i'm going to go ahead and state that I agree with some of his points (as I have already in the past). For instance, DRM isn't going away for the most part, certain people (clueless of not) still believe it's necessary, and some forms are transparent and not that big of deal.

So, i'll just add that for now and wait and see what his response to my above post is, even though i'm quite sure I already know what it will be.

Shrug, what can I say, my ego has a heavy appetite for trolls and liars, but looking back at this thread and what I've been able to expose and prove about you two has certainly only fed that ego.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
Where am I contradicting myself? When you see major publishers removing all forms of DRM from their games, let me know. I've already answered the question and once again shown you really don't know what you're talking about. In both of your "No DRM" examples that supposedly "proved me wrong", you've once again shown how poorly researched and informed your arguments are, as both HAWX and Sins of a Solar Empire do in fact employ DRM. So what's the score on misinformation now? If we combine the number of times I've shown you and Red Irish to be provably wrong or flat out dishonest, we'd certainly be coming close to a Mercy Rule here. :laugh:

lol, an as expected response with the required smiley at the end to solidify your egotism. As always.. you attempt to skim around the fact that the statement you made is inaccurate and false, yet fall flat on your face trying to do so. I'd correct you, but at this point it's clear as day, so i'll just let what you said speak for itself.

Good work, you've just proved yet again how out of touch with reality you really are.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
lol, an as expected response with the required smiley at the end to solidify your egotism. As always.. you attempt to skim around the fact that the statement you made is inaccurate and false, yet fall flat on your face trying to do so. I'd correct you, but at this point it's clear as day, so i'll just let what you said speak for itself.

Good work, you've just proved yet again how out of touch with reality you really are.

As expected? You ducking my points about you lying and spreading misinformation as usual? Can you acknowledge HAWX and Sins of a Solar Empire do in fact have DRM when you claimed they do not in an attempt to prove your weak point about publishers not valuing DRM? I didn't think so.

But let's look at the quote you keep referring to as somehow being the card that brings the house down:

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary.

In context, it clearly states what I've stated throughout, that DRM is indeed seen as effective and those who employ it see its value in preventing piracy. Given your emphasis on the bolded portion and the failed at attempt at using HAWX and Sins as examples, you're once again trying to claim the exception is somehow the rule (again, see WoW's DRM is ineffective because .1% piracy rates). However, in context its clear I'm referring to everyone who sees the value of DRM to begin with as I already defined that group earlier in the sentence:

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry [still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM] sees it as effective and necessary.

"my brackets for clarification"

So what we have is a minor clarification and trivial difference in meaning compared to countless lies, misinformation and BS from you. Now who's detached from reality?

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
Can you acknowledge HAWX and Sins of a Solar Empire do in fact have DRM when you claimed they do not in an attempt to prove your weak point about publishers not valuing DRM?

Ok sure. I don't have my ego wrapped up in all this so i'll acknowledge what you're saying here. HAWX and Sins of a Solar Empire have DRM if you choose to play them online as they require a serial number. However if you only choose to engage in the SP element, they don't. So there, now we've clarified that.

Originally posted by: chizow
Given your emphasis on the bolded portion and the failed at attempt at using HAWX and Sins as examples, you're once again trying to claim the exception is somehow the rule

Nope, just pointing out a statement from you that is clearly false.

Originally posted by: chizow
However, in context its clear I'm referring to everyone who sees the value of DRM to begin with as I already defined that group earlier in the sentence:

Yeah, and in context i'm clearly arguing something completely different then what you believe I am it seems, so I guess you're just confused. Clarifying your statement, or whatever you're attempting to do there, doesn't change what you wrote. So can "you" acknowledge that the statement you made was false? That is the question.

And while we're at it, i'll go ahead and post this list for you to check out since you asked for it on the previous page. Below is a small sample of recently released games from major publishers that contain NO DRM. The list is organized as follows:

Game Title / Publisher / Release Date


Aurora - The Secret Within / Tri Synergy / TBA 2009

Bully Scholarship Edition / Rockstar Games / March 3, 2008

CSI: Crime Scene Investigation: Hard Evidence / Ubisoft / January 15, 2008

Dark Sector / Aspyr / March 24, 2009

Deadliest Catch: Alaskan Storm / Greenwave / August 19, 2008

Elements of Destruction / ValuSoft / May 1, 2008

Gothic III - Forsaken Gods / Aspyr / November 18, 2008

Marine Sharpshooter: Locked and Loaded / Groove Games / July 28, 2008

Nancy Drew: The Phantom of Venice / Her Interactive / July 8, 2008

Nikopol: Secrets of the Immortals / Got Game Entertainment / September 25, 2008

Panzer Command: Kharkov / Matrix Games / April 11, 2008

Prince of Persia / Ubisoft / December 2, 2008

Prison Tycoon 4: SuperMax / ValuSoft / August 29, 2008

Space Chimps / Red Tribe / July 15, 2008

 

[Maximilian]

You guys are doing a great job of wearing him down! Keep it up and he should break and give up eventually. Maybe a poll would be nice? Who agrees with chizow poll? Noone likes to see that they are the insignificant minority when arguing about something.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Ok sure. I don't have my ego wrapped up in all this so i'll acknowledge what you're saying here. HAWX and Sins of a Solar Empire have DRM if you choose to play them online as they require a serial number. However if you only choose to engage in the SP element, they don't. So there, now we've clarified that.

Which once again proves your opinions and arguments are poorly formulated and researched. No surprise however, how many times is that in this thread alone?

Nope, just pointing out a statement from you that is clearly false.

Its not clearly false, it just assumes you'd understand companies employing DRM already see it as valuable or necessary. Common sense of course, otherwise they wouldn't be paying more to use it.

Yeah, and in context i'm clearly arguing something completely different then what you believe I am it seems....

Not my problem. My statement makes perfect sense, a company that didn't see the value and effectiveness of DRM to begin with wouldn't see the need to use it.

And while we're at it, i'll go ahead and post this list for you to check out since you asked for it on the previous page. Below is a small sample of recently released games from major publishers that contain NO DRM. The list is organized as follows:

Awesome list, let me know when any of them come close to WoW's sales totals and piracy rates.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Maximilian
You guys are doing a great job of wearing him down! Keep it up and he should break and give up eventually. Maybe a poll would be nice? Who agrees with chizow poll? Noone likes to see that they are the insignificant minority when arguing about something.

LMAO, you obviously don't seem to understand. Arguments based on lies, deceit and misinformation are easily defeated and make for easy sport. This entire thread is proof of it, I only need to give them enough rope to hang themselves and they take care of the rest. I just need to get them talking and its a given I'm going to catch them in a lie or spouting some BS because they didn't do their homework and clearly have no actual experience with what they're talking about. :laugh:

 

[NoWhereM]

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry sees it as effective and necessary.

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, the fact they are still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM prove my point everyone in the industry [still using SecuROM and other forms of DRM] sees it as effective and necessary.

Originally posted by: chizow
So what we have is a minor clarification and trivial difference in meaning compared to countless lies, misinformation and BS from you. Now who's detached from reality?

Originally posted by: chizow
LMAO, you obviously don't seem to understand. Arguments based on lies, deceit and misinformation are easily defeated and make for easy sport.