UK: Retired widow could face 5 years of prison after man broke into her house...

[guyver01]

the fact is that gun ownership is not a fundamental human right

Please indicate which of the 2,000+ lists of "fundamental human rights" you are indicating when stating this "fact"..

Hell.. the UN just stated that The Internet is a "fundamental human right" ... so... "facts" about what counts as a fundamental human right is totally arbitrary

 

[HAL9000]

Please indicate which of the 2,000+ lists of "fundamental human rights" you are indicating when stating this "fact"..

Hell.. the UN just stated that The Internet is a "fundamental human right" ... so... "facts" about what counts as a fundamental human right is totally arbitrary

Wikipedia will do for me for now.

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights

Or the UN

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

 

[guyver01]

Wikipedia will do for me for now.

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights

Or the UN

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

So... Wikipedia is now the definition of FACT?
and the UN is laughable. Like is said... to them.. INTERNET is a 'fundamental human right'

 

[HAL9000]

So... Wikipedia is now the definition of FACT?
and the UN is laughable. Like is said... to them.. INTERNET is a 'fundamental human right'

Like I said, I'm happy with both of them, and in terms of enforceable human rights the UN is about as good as it gets internationally.

 

[guyver01]

in terms of enforceable human rights the UN is about as good as it gets internationally.

Well.. the UN says that "internet access" is a fundamental human right...

Based on this map..

much of Asia, Africa, South America doesnt have internet.

Which country is leading the war on internet access?

I mean.. if it's a fundamental human right, based on the UN list... SURELY it must be enforced...

 

[HAL9000]

Well.. the UN says that "internet access" is a fundamental human right...

Based on this map..

much of Asia, Africa, South America doesnt have internet.

Which country is leading the war on internet access?

I mean.. if it's a fundamental human right, based on the UN list... SURELY it must be enforced...

Agreed. It should. For members of the UN.

In any event we aren't talking about internet access are we? We are talking gun ownership, stop derailing.

 

[guyver01]

In any event we aren't talking about internet access are we? We are talking gun ownership, stop derailing.

and, according to you... Gun Ownership isn't a Fundamental Human Right.
Internet access is a Fundamental Human Right.

Discussions are related. Derail not found.

 

[HAL9000]

and, according to you... Gun Ownership isn't a Fundamental Human Right.
Internet access is a Fundamental Human Right.

Discussions are related. Derail not found.

Gun ownership isn't a fundamental human right as it is banned in many many modern western countries, therefore it is only a right in the countries that it is legal in, not in other countries, not for all modern countries that recognise human rights.

 

[nonlnear]

Gun ownership isn't a fundamental human right as it is banned in many many modern western countries, therefore it is only a right in the countries that it is legal in, not in other countries, not for all modern countries that recognise human rights.

What does the "fundamentalness" of a human right have to do with the fact that many authoritarian regimes ignore them? Depriving a creature of the right to effective self defense is called domestication.

 

[guyver01]

Gun ownership isn't a fundamental human right

The United States Disagress.
I Disagree.

 

[HAL9000]

What does the "fundamentalness" of a human right have to do with the fact that many authoritarian regimes ignore them? Depriving a creature of the right to effective self defense is called domestication.

I'm just differentiating between the rights of an individual country and the rights that are widely accepted as human rights for all human beings in modern countries.

The United States Disagress.
I Disagree.

It's an American right, it's not a right to all humans according to the UN and Wikipedia and me, and England, and many other countries.

 

[guyver01]

it's not a right to all humans according to the UN and Wikipedia and me, and England, and many other countries.

Give me 5 minutes, and it will be a fundamental human right, according to Wikipedia...

you know...

the website ANYONE can edit??

 

[HAL9000]

Give me 5 minutes, and it will be a fundamental human right, according to Wikipedia...

you know...

the website ANYONE can edit??

OK go for it.

 

[nonlnear]

I'm just differentiating between the rights of an individual country and the rights that are widely accepted as human rights for all human beings in modern countries.

Ah, so for people with my particular mental block would call that a human right universally acknowledged by governments, rather than what you call a "fundamental human right". To people with my peculiar brand of insanity, what governments say about human rights is irrelevant to what I believe to be a right. There are only varying degrees to which I deem governments to be infringing on my rights. How they justify it is immaterial to me.

It's an American right, it's not a right to all humans according to the UN and Wikipedia.

Again, it is an American right, and not a right recognized by all governments. Damn Wikipedia and its statist sheep contributors.

 

[HAL9000]

Ah, so for people with my particular mental block would call that a human right universally acknowledged by governments, rather than what you call a "fundamental human right". To people with my peculiar brand of insanity, what governments say about human rights is irrelevant to what I believe to be a right. There are only varying degrees to which I deem governments to be infringing on my rights. How they justify it is immaterial to me.

No. Gun ownership is not universally acknowledged by governments as a human right, fundamental or not.

Again, it is an American right, and not a right recognized by all governments. Damn Wikipedia and its statist sheep contributors.

Agreed, it's an American right. That's what I'm saying, not a human right.

 

[nonlnear]

No. Gun ownership is not universally acknowledged by governments as a human right, fundamental or not.

Why should I care? What bearing does the opinion of a government have on what rights are fundamental to my humanity? Governments aren't humans; they are governments.

Agreed, it's an American right. That's what I'm saying, not a human right.

Mangoes rage sublimely above the redness of despair.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Nope, I'm pretty content. I'm not hugely interested in legality, I'm far more interested in morality.

bullshit. absolute bullshit. this thread, as well as many others (rape vs. self defense) make that plainly clear.

you are a troll of the highest (lowest?) caliber. nothing more.

 

[HAL9000]

Why should I care? What bearing does the opinion of a government have on what rights are fundamental to my humanity? Governments aren't humans; they are governments.

Mangoes rage sublimely above the redness of despair.

I didn't say you should care, I'm simply arguing that while it is a right in america it is not accepted as a right across all of modern western humanity, unlike the right to life etc.

bullshit. absolute bullshit. this thread, as well as many others (rape vs. self defense) make that plainly clear.

you are a troll of the highest (lowest?) caliber. nothing more.

Nothing for me to discuss with you? just trolling? OK.

 

[Siddhartha]

Well fair enough, but the fact is that gun ownership is not a fundamental human right, many people in the UK (myself included) pride themselves on the fact that we don't have private gun ownership in the UK, so enforcing that isn't depriving anyone of their rights, it's just enforcing the system we have put in place.

The US gun guys would disagree with you on gun ownership rights. This is why I asked if there was anyone who in the thread who actually lives in the UK.

 

[guyver01]

I didn't say you should care, I'm simply arguing that while it is a right in america it is not accepted as a right across all of modern western humanity, unlike the right to life etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#Worldwide_politics_and_legislation

Gun ownership is allowed in most Western & Eastern civilizations, as opposed to the UK.

I have not read every constitution nor have i read every charter of EVERY country in the world, and i doubt you have either.

 

[nonlnear]

I didn't say you should care, I'm simply arguing that while it is a right in america it is not accepted as a right across all of modern western humanity, unlike the right to life etc.

What are you talking about with this "right to life"? Just recently Obama put a hit out on an American citizen for engaging in political speech. We are killing Libyans for peace, and don't have to call it a war because the President decided to invent the term "hostilities" and pretend it has legal weight.

Governments talk a big game about what they call "rights" but in the end their opinions about the meaning of the term are like a fart in the wind, only less real. With governments, there is only the imposition of force and the lack of imposition of force. There is no [legal] right not to be imposed upon if the government decides to make their imposition "legal".

 

[schneiderguy]

The right to defend yourself and your loved ones is a human right. Guns are the best tools for the job. Therefore the right to keep and bear arms is a human right.

 

[Howard]

LOL the UK should make rape legal.

 

[irishScott]

The right to defend yourself and your loved ones is a human right. Guns are the best tools for the job. Therefore the right to keep and bear arms is a human right.

To any rational human being yes. To our dear buddy Hal you should just "man up" and take on the guy with a knife in hand to hand. This is based on his singular experience of taking on a drunk guy with a small pen-knife knife. He won't budge on this issue either, trust me. He literally doesn't think he could be killed with a small pen-knife.

And Hal, assuming I'm not on your ignore list yet, that is a straight paraphrase from one of your earlier posts as well.

 

[HAL9000]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#Worldwide_politics_and_legislation

Gun ownership is allowed in most Western & Eastern civilizations, as opposed to the UK.

I have not read every constitution nor have i read every charter of EVERY country in the world, and i doubt you have either.

Most != All.

What are you talking about with this "right to life"? Just recently Obama put a hit out on an American citizen for engaging in political speech. We are killing Libyans for peace, and don't have to call it a war because the President decided to invent the term "hostilities" and pretend it has legal weight.

I'm not going to argue with you about US politics, I don't give a shit what Obama did recently, you know what I mean when I say right to life.

Governments talk a big game about what they call "rights" but in the end their opinions about the meaning of the term are like a fart in the wind, only less real. With governments, there is only the imposition of force and the lack of imposition of force. There is no [legal] right not to be imposed upon if the government decides to make their imposition "legal".

I don't know what you want me to reply to here, I feel like you just like the look of your own text.

The right to defend yourself and your loved ones is a human right. Guns are the best tools for the job. Therefore the right to keep and bear arms is a human right.

Error! Does not correlate, right to defend != right to own guns.