UFC 128: Shogun vs Jon Jones

[Woosta]

While Shogun is busy finishing top 10 LHWs, including guys who DO NOT GET FINISHED like Rampage, Machida and KOing the other top 10 LHWs, Jon Jones can't even finish Bonnar and Andre Gusmao.

Yes, Bonnar is a tough SOB, but is he as tough as Machida or Rampage?

No.

Point: Shogun has finished guys who are tougher.

 

[Woosta]

Striking advantage? Shogun
Transitions advantage? Shogun
Speed advantage? Shogun
Power advantage? Shogun
Grappling/Submission advantage? Shogun
Gameplan advantage? Shogun
Toughess/chin advantage? Shogun
Experience advantage? Shogun

Athleticism advantage? Jon Jones
Youth/non-injured advantage? Jon Jones
Wrestling advantage? Jon Jones

Shogun should be the favorite. It's a crime he isn't the favorite on the betting lines. A crime.

Even if Shogun gets brutally KO'd, you can't deny the greatness of what Shogun has done.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Anything else worth seeing on the card Saturday night?

 

[wheresmybacon]

Striking advantage? Shogun
Transitions advantage? Shogun
Speed advantage? Shogun
Power advantage? Shogun
Grappling advantage? Shogun
Gameplan advantage? Shogun
Toughess/chin advantage? Shogun
Experience advantage? Shogun

Athleticism advantage? Jon Jones
Youth/non-injured advantage? Jon Jones
Wrestling advantage? Jon Jones

Shogun should be the favorite. It's a crime he isn't the favorite on the betting lines. A crime.

Power and grappling to Shogun? Really? I disagree there.

I think we all know what we're getting with Bones. Shogun is another story. Are we getting the Shogun that fought and almost lost to the Grandfather of Ground and Pound and did lose to Forrest or are we getting the Shogun that made Machida see little birdies?

It's my opinion that we're more inclined to see the lesser of those two. This isn't Pride; that was a long time ago. I like Shogun a lot. I love his style, I like him as a person from what I've seen in interviews. I just think Jones is a beast and he'll take it.

Can't wait for Saturday! I haven't been this excited for a fight in a long time.

 

[brandonb]

Faber is on the card? Isn't he WEC? Or have they merged those into the UFC events now?

 

[Woosta]

Power and grappling to Shogun? Really? I disagree there.

I think we all know what we're getting with Bones. Shogun is another story. Are we getting the Shogun that fought and almost lost to the Grandfather of Ground and Pound and did lose to Forrest or are we getting the Shogun that made Machida see little birdies?

It's my opinion that we're more inclined to see the lesser of those two. This isn't Pride; that was a long time ago. I like Shogun a lot. I love his style, I like him as a person from what I've seen in interviews. I just think Jones is a beast and he'll take it.

Can't wait for Saturday! I haven't been this excited for a fight in a long time.

Shogun has KO'd stronger guys with stronger chins than Bones. Advantage? Shogun in power.
Shogun has submitted more experienced/veteran guys in grappling. Advantage? Shogun.

 

[airdata]

Faber is on the card? Isn't he WEC? Or have they merged those into the UFC events now?

WEC has been merged into the UFC. Happened at the beginning of the year.

This is going to be a great card. I can't wait to see Shogun vs Jones.

 

[QueBert]

My Turd neighbor has just told me Shogun will win because Jones has a weak chin. I wonder how one comes to that conclusion about a fighter who hasn't been KO'ed or even remotely rocked from a punch. He acted like Shogun has a 150% chance of winning and was talking shit for 3 minutes. But when I asked if he wanted to bet me $100 on the fight, he didn't say shit and went back in his house.

 

[airdata]

Shogun is a beast and definitely has the experience advantage over jones. That's why it's such a good fight, because it's so hard to pick a winner.

If Shogun keeps pressure on jones, he could very well finish him.

 

[wheresmybacon]

Anything else worth seeing on the card Saturday night?

Bored at work. Here's my breakdown of the main card.

Light Heavyweight Championship bout: Maurício Rua (c) vs. Jon Jones
Bones will shock the world by finishing current champ and MMA legend Maurício Shogun Rua in dramatic fashion, Sherdog will implode upon itself, and millions of nerds who heard about Pride, never saw it, and like Rua mostly because his name is "Shogun" will cry themselves to sleep.

Bantamweight bout: Urijah Faber vs. Eddie Wineland
Former WEC champs square off, although with Faber now @ 135. Wineland has great stand-up and is tough as nails, so I think we'll see Urijah try to mix in takedowns off of combos so he can get this to the ground to take advantage of his superior wrestling. Faber by UD.

Lightweight bout: Jim Miller vs. Kamal Shalorus
This could be the sleeper fight of the night. Both of these guys are fantastic wrestlers, but Shalorus is freakishly strong and loves to stand and bang. Miller has no neck and is going to try and get this groundward as quickly as possible...I think he'll have a lot of trouble doing that due to Kamal's Old Man Strength and excellent TDD. As with many fights between two amazing wrestlers, expect this to remain upright, with Shalorus getting a surprise finish in rd 3 of the usually durable Miller.

Middleweight bout: Nate Marquardt vs. Dan Miller
Oh snap it's No-Neck's brother! The other Jersey Miller squares off against the perpetually-underachieving Marquardt. Nate the Great will do what he usually does against lesser opponents and win this, probably by TKO.

Heavyweight bout: Mirko Filipović vs. Brendan Schaub
Get ready to be bored! The only person more bored than anyone watching this fight will be Crocop himself, who hasn't looked like he wanted to be in the Octagon since...the Pat Berry lovefest, and that wasn't for fighting. It's really sad what's become of Crocop. Schaub by UD after outpacing and outrstiking the old, tired Croatian.

 

[wheresmybacon]

Shogun has KO'd stronger guys with stronger chins than Bones. Advantage? Shogun in power.
Shogun has submitted more experienced/veteran guys in grappling. Advantage? Shogun.

Fast forward to present day then rethink your argument. If we were talking about 4 years ago I'd take Shogun too. He's not the same guy.

 

[RagingBITCH]

Fast forward to present day then rethink your argument. If we were talking about 4 years ago I'd take Shogun too. He's not the same guy.

Woosta is the same idiot that declared Fedor god, and his first of two in a row losses a "fluke". Putting stock in anything he says isn't a smart idea.

 

[shopbruin]

My Turd neighbor has just told me Shogun will win because Jones has a weak chin. I wonder how one comes to that conclusion about a fighter who hasn't been KO'ed or even remotely rocked from a punch. He acted like Shogun has a 150% chance of winning and was talking shit for 3 minutes. But when I asked if he wanted to bet me $100 on the fight, he didn't say shit and went back in his house.

Well played, good sir.

 

[TheNinja]

While Shogun is busy finishing top 10 LHWs, including guys who DO NOT GET FINISHED like Rampage, Machida and KOing the other top 10 LHWs, Jon Jones can't even finish Bonnar and Andre Gusmao.

Yes, Bonnar is a tough SOB, but is he as tough as Machida or Rampage?

No.

Point: Shogun has finished guys who are tougher.

I understand your point about Shogun facing tougher competition. However regarding Bonnar, I'd say he is a tough as those guys, not as good, but certainly as tough. He has NEVER been stopped except for a cut...EVER. So I'd say he's pretty tough to finish. Jones stopped Bader...never lost before, he stopped Vera who has only be KO'd by a 240 Werdum, he stopped The Janitor who is not exactly as easy out.

Rampage has been stopped 4 times - 3 KO and 1 sub. Machida isn't the type of guy to engage a lot, so I can see why he hasn't been stopped much. However I agree that Shogun can stop some tough mofos......but then you have to say he lost to Forrest and barely beat Coleman. Ya, ya, I know the back story of injuries and such.


I'm still putting my money on Shogun though.

 

[TheNinja]

Striking advantage? Shogun
Transitions advantage? Shogun
Speed advantage? Shogun
Power advantage? Shogun
Grappling/Submission advantage? Shogun
Gameplan advantage? Shogun
Toughess/chin advantage? Shogun
Experience advantage? Shogun

Athleticism advantage? Jon Jones
Youth/non-injured advantage? Jon Jones
Wrestling advantage? Jon Jones

Shogun should be the favorite. It's a crime he isn't the favorite on the betting lines. A crime.

Even if Shogun gets brutally KO'd, you can't deny the greatness of what Shogun has done.

LOL - Speed, Power, Gameplan, Toughness/Chin - You cannot give these to Shogun automatically just because you like the guy....try to be a little objective. These are up for debate imo.

And it shouldn't be a crime that he is underdog on betting line b/c you can make more money on an underdog than a favorite you know. You should call the bookies and thank them, not be mad.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

At these odds Shogun is a tempting bet. Jones has a lot of potential but he still has holes in his game.

 

[Woosta]

i understand your point about shogun facing tougher competition. However regarding bonnar, i'd say he is a tough as those guys, not as good, but certainly as tough. He has never been stopped except for a cut...ever. So i'd say he's pretty tough to finish. Jones stopped bader...never lost before, he stopped vera who has only be ko'd by a 240 werdum, he stopped the janitor who is not exactly as easy out.

rampage has been stopped 4 times - 3 ko and 1 sub. Machida isn't the type of guy to engage a lot, so i can see why he hasn't been stopped much. However i agree that shogun can stop some tough mofos......but then you have to say he lost to forrest and barely beat coleman. Ya, ya, i know the back story of injuries and such.


I'm still putting my money on shogun though.

No one that jon jones fought is tougher than rampage. No one. Rampage ate over 9000 knees from both shogun and wanderlei in order to stop him.

 

[Woosta]

LOL - Speed, Power, Gameplan, Toughness/Chin - You cannot give these to Shogun automatically just because you like the guy....try to be a little objective. These are up for debate imo.

And it shouldn't be a crime that he is underdog on betting line b/c you can make more money on an underdog than a favorite you know. You should call the bookies and thank them, not be mad.

Shogun was faster than Machida. Machida is faster than Jon Jones.

Shogun's gameplans are brilliant - see both Machida fights.

Shogun's chin has been tested, and the shape of his head is similar to that of Rampage, Hendo, BJ who all have wide heads and they're able to take much more damage than thin headed people like Bones.

Shogun has withstood knees and damage from ELITE top caliber strikers. Jon Jones hasn't been tested.

Until Jon Jones is tested, I can't give the edge to Jones.

I am being objective.

 

[bfdd]

Woosta, you're giving things that are quite awkward to Shogun as a bonus. Transitions are part of grappling, yet you separated the two. I would say JJ has the advantage grappling, even if it's just slight.

This fight comes down to how well Shogun can keep it standing because I don't see him doing any better off his back than anyone else JJ has come up against. He might surprise me in that department, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm really looking forward to this fight, I think it's rather even and I would stay away from betting on it.

 

[railer]

I'd take the Shogun of 5 years ago over the Bones of today.
However, this is 2011, and the last time Shogun came off of a major knee surgery, he lost to Forrest Griffin. And Forrest Griffin sucks horribly.

I like Shogun, but my cash will be going on JBJ this Saturday.

 

[CPA]

Woosta, can you put this in the OP?

UFC's Transcendent Star


"Does he deserve a title shot?" asked Forrest Griffin, himself a top contender and a former champion at 205 pounds. "Let me ask you this: Do you see a lot of people asking to fight Jon Jones? You put that question out and you get crickets."

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I have already posted why I think Bones wins this. Following that up: What I consider Rua's biggest advantage as a fighter, cannot save him this time. That advantage being his great whiskers/chin. Getting taken down and pounded on relentlessly, will force the ref to stop the fight at some point.

Shogun has to hurt him bad, and use his second best quality; He is a tremendous finisher. Because if he gets put on his back, his sweeps and subs are going to get sorely tested. It is difficult to do either when the other guy is dropping big damage on you the whole time.

Jones sub defense is still mostly a question mark, so maybe it is a beloved patriot in the armor that has yet to be exploited?

Still a great time to be a MMA fan. The Bellator fights have been a good time on Saturday nights. This week they start at 7 P.M. which I am happy about.

 

[Woosta]

Woosta, can you put this in the OP?

UFC's Transcendent Star


"Does he deserve a title shot?" asked Forrest Griffin, himself a top contender and a former champion at 205 pounds. "Let me ask you this: Do you see a lot of people asking to fight Jon Jones? You put that question out and you get crickets."

Why would I put that in the OP?

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Overhyped. Bader, Bonner, Hammill does not compare to this fight. This is the big leagues. He's a wrestler fighting a true MMA fighter in Shogun.

Shogun is going to find the holes in his game. I'm predicting Shogun by TKO in the first round.

 

[LookBehindYou]

Dont forget CroCop vs Schaub is on this card. Damnit what i wouldnt give for one more LHK! I went to 119 when he fought Mir, i'm glad he's not going out like that. His recent training videos make it look like he could be back to true form. I hope so, will always be a crocop fan. I'd love for him to knock schaub into oblivion.