UFC 128: Shogun vs Jon Jones

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May 13, 2009
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Don't get me wrong I'm one of Rampage's biggest fans. Time hasn't been kind to Rampage though. Guys age differently IMO. Machida at 32/33 years old looks lightning quick. Rampage looks like he's 40yo at 30. Probably doesn't help some of the beatings Wanderlei put on him in the pride days. Rampage was lucky the Machida fight ended when it did cause Machida was getting in a grove there at the end.
 

wheresmybacon

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2004
3,899
0
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Jones +185
Rua -200

Interesting. As good as Shogun is (was?) I still don't think he's got much of a chance against Bones. The line reflects that. To his credit though I don't think anyone has much of a chance against Bones. Athletically, physically, he's just on a different level. He's the next generation of this sport. He's got the skills standing and grappling, but also he brings that natural athleticism and God-given speed/strength/explosiveness you just can't teach.

Jones will TKO Shogun in the 2nd and go on to hold the belt basically as long as he wants. A black GSP @ 205 who finishes fights.

Yes, I am driving the Jon Jones hype train, but sometimes hype is warranted. Now is one of those times.
 

Woosta

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2008
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This is how confident I am that Shogun will win...

If Shogun loses, I won't post anything on AT except my fitness log for 30 days.

Anyone wanna bet me the same? Or are you guys not as confident?
 

Woosta

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2008
3,006
0
71
Jones +185
Rua -200

Interesting. As good as Shogun is (was?) I still don't think he's got much of a chance against Bones. The line reflects that. To his credit though I don't think anyone has much of a chance against Bones. Athletically, physically, he's just on a different level. He's the next generation of this sport. He's got the skills standing and grappling, but also he brings that natural athleticism and God-given speed/strength/explosiveness you just can't teach.

Jones will TKO Shogun in the 2nd and go on to hold the belt basically as long as he wants. A black GSP @ 205 who finishes fights.

Yes, I am driving the Jon Jones hype train, but sometimes hype is warranted. Now is one of those times.

Even if Jon Jones becomes the GOAT eventually, Shogun will be the 2nd GOAT. You cannot deny Shogun's greatness even if he loses in devastating fashion.

The man has beat EVERY TOP LHW under the godamn sun in the last 5-6 years.

If Shogun demolishes Jon Jones I bet you guys will jump bandwagons and not support Jon Jones. I will continue supporting both fighters. I can't stand bandwagon hoppers.

If Shogun gets knocked out cold I will still continue to support him, but the chances of that are not as high as Bones getting KO'd.
 
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Pantlegz

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2007
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If Shogun demolishes Jon Jones I bet you guys will jump bandwagons and not support Jon Jones. I will continue supporting both fighters. I can't stand bandwagon hoppers.

Just because someone like a new fighter doesn't necessarily mean they're just jumping on the bandwagon. I'm a fan of Jon Jones but I have been since I first saw him fight. The guy is amazing and in the Bader fight I went into it thinking that it was going to be a good test for Jones and he schooled Bader, which sucks because I like him too. I'm not going to say that Jones will smash Shogun mostly because we know Shogun has heart and has beaten many(all?) of the top LHW's recently. The one thing that worries me about the fight is we rarely see Jones out of the first round and in the Bonner fight he was getting gassed at the end of 3, what happens in round 4 or 5?

I hope it will be a good match and I'm rooting for Jones to win it.
 

Duder1no

Senior member
Nov 1, 2010
866
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No doubt that Rampage is a great fighter. His problem has always been lack of focus and discipline. He gets fat and lazy between fights especially if he's sitting good with money. If he had the work ethic of someone like GSP, he'd be LHW champ for a long time imo...sadly he does not. I think Shogun would beat Rampage.

Exactly.

Rampage was given the opportunity to fight Shogun before Jones but he admitted he was too fat to do it so he declined.
 

wheresmybacon

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2004
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Even if Jon Jones becomes the GOAT eventually, Shogun will be the 2nd GOAT. You cannot deny Shogun's greatness even if he loses in devastating fashion.

The man has beat EVERY TOP LHW under the godamn sun in the last 5-6 years.

If Shogun demolishes Jon Jones I bet you guys will jump bandwagons and not support Jon Jones. I will continue supporting both fighters. I can't stand bandwagon hoppers.

If Shogun gets knocked out cold I will still continue to support him, but the chances of that are not as high as Bones getting KO'd.

Don't get me wrong; saying what I said doesn't discount Shogun or somehow remove him from his place as one of the great fighters in MMA history. I love Shogun. When he KO'd Machida I got up off my couch and ran around the house screaming like a little girl. He was one of the first guys I really grabbed on to and rooted for in 2004 when I rediscovered MMA through Pride.

That being said, Jones is a monster, and I understand why the line is the way it is.

I'll take your bet, BTW. No posting from me for a month if Jones loses. If it's somehow a draw we'll call it a push. Sound fair?
 

kevman

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2001
3,548
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Didn't think Shogun was all that especially after the Griffin fight. The Lyoto 2 fight was impressive, but I think Jone is going to destroy him.

I haven't seen much of Shogun's pre-UFC stuff though.
 

ctark

Senior member
Sep 6, 2004
726
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http://www.bestfightodds.com/

So.. Jon Jones is a .................. favorite against... Shogun

I'm putting down $500 on Shogun.

This is disgusting; people who had no fucking clue who Bones Jones was until maybe his last fight or the fight prior have completely jumped on the bandwagon, much the same as the people jumping on Shogun's bandwagon after he KTFO'd Machida; much the same as the people jumping on Machida's bandwagon after he KTFO'd Rashad...

Shogun has the edge in:

- experience; he's already faced the who's who of LHWs and destroyed them
- gameplans; his team comes up with incredible gameplans such as both fights with Machida
- bjj/ground; sick sick sweeps and submissions.. he has probably the best BJJ at LHW ( I consider it to be > Lil Nog's )
- brawling/striking on the inside; shogun has mastered the art of brawling on the inside
- granite chin; the only LHW that has knocked him down was Lil Nog

What Jon Jones has been doing to the lower echelon of LHWs, Shogun has been doing to the upper echelon of LHWs since he was 23 ( he should be 28/29 now ).

Jon Jones has the edge in:

- elite level wrestling; embarassed Bader who's an amazing wrestler in his own right
- reach; 84 inch reach is insane considering the only person close to that was Tim Sylvia with 81 inch
- creative striking; you never know what this kid will try and he usually executes crazy, insane shit that actually works
- athleticism and a youthful body; both guys are gifted athletes but Shogun's had a history of knee problems and Jones is very early into his career where his body is pretty much in its prime

Jon Jones is larger but lankier which means he has skinnier legs and those are open to be leg kicked the crap out of by Shogun, one of the best leg kickers in the business. Unless Jones really emphasizes his training on checking kicks or countering Shogun's leg kick in some fashion; evading it somehow or countering using his huge reach advantage, it'll be a night of leg kicking which will have a huge impact on his striking or wrestling in the later rounds. I expect Jon Jones to be fully aware of this and work out a gameplan countering the leg kicks.

Shogun needs to work on his TDD and spar with someone with a very long reach. He has faced Overeem and Snake who have a huge reach and defeated both so he is very capable of dealing with the reach. He was outstruck by Overeem though, but once he got Reem to the ground he just dominated and GNPed him; I expect Shogun to try to do the same to Jones. I don't think I've seen Bones on his back yet but it'll be interesting to see how he'll be in that position. Shogun needs to also work on getting out of the elbow pound Jones does when he puts guys down to the ground; deadliest elbows in MMA.

This fight will definitely be one of those dream matchups. Jon Jones in a few years once he masters everything will be an absolute monster, I don't think he's ready for Shogun yet but he's very capable of beating him; moreso than anyone else at LHW.

To me Shogun is already the LHW GOAT, despite not defending his title he has the absolute best resume of wins at LHW. Wanderlei and Chuck did not face better opponents throughout their career, Shogun to me has already surpassed them. If Shogun can pull off a win, he'll further cement himself in the eyes of the doubters.

If Jon Jones manages to pull the huge, huge upset he's definitely on course to be the LHW GOAT. Him winning the LHW belt at 23 would be *almost* equal to Shogun beating Arona, Rampage, Lil Nog and Overeem in the course of 5-6 months to win the GP in 05.


There you go again getting mad cause you thought Bones Jones was good before everybody else. Just shows what a tool you really are, and thats why you make it impossible to discuss MMA with you. You have an elitist attitude like 50 percent of the sherdoggers out there who believe you cant be a "real" fan of MMA unless you were a fan before it was big.
 
May 13, 2009
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There you go again getting mad cause you thought Bones Jones was good before everybody else. Just shows what a tool you really are, and thats why you make it impossible to discuss MMA with you. You have an elitist attitude like 50 percent of the sherdoggers out there who believe you cant be a "real" fan of MMA unless you were a fan before it was big.
The biggest problem with his attitude is that my friend and I were watching the very early UFC while he was still in diapers.
 

TheNinja

Lifer
Jan 22, 2003
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Shogun was the PRIDE FC #2 MW (UFC LHW) after Wanderlei

I saw him demolish Overeem live in Vegas at PRIDE 33, fucking awesome

You were at Pride 33? One of the greatest events ever IMO!!

You had:

Hellboy
Soko shocking KO over Lil Nog,
Sakurai (a legend)
Sergei K. in person
Shogun and Overeem
Nick frickin' Gogo'ing Gomi after that first round of action
Hendo stopping Wandy


I don't know if I have you beat simply b/c I happened to see Fedor live once....but that was a GREAT card.
 

Duder1no

Senior member
Nov 1, 2010
866
1
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You were at Pride 33? One of the greatest events ever IMO!!

You had:

Hellboy
Soko shocking KO over Lil Nog,
Sakurai (a legend)
Sergei K. in person
Shogun and Overeem
Nick frickin' Gogo'ing Gomi after that first round of action
Hendo stopping Wandy


I don't know if I have you beat simply b/c I happened to see Fedor live once....but that was a GREAT card.

I was there, my buddy and I were the only souls on the building cheering Nick Diaz and booing Gomi when they were presented, that changed as the fight went by tho. The Gomi vs Diaz fight alone was worth the cost of the ticket, everything else was just icing on the cake.

The only downer for me was to see Wanderlei lose :(
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Jones +185
Rua -200


Jones will TKO Shogun in the 2nd and go on to hold the belt basically as long as he wants. A black GSP @ 205 who finishes fights.

Yes, I am driving the Jon Jones hype train, but sometimes hype is warranted. Now is one of those times.


I was thinking the same thing yesterday. He's setting up to be the 205 GSP or Spider.
 

Duder1no

Senior member
Nov 1, 2010
866
1
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Silva vs Shogun at 205, enough said.

Shogun is up to the challenge:

"Now I'm focused on Jon Jones. It's a sin to speak about my next fight when I'm thinking about a man like Jon Jones. So I'm focused on him, but I already answered. It's obvious I'd fight Anderson. I respect him as a friend and professional, but I also am a professional. Yes, I'd fight him."

http://www.mmamania.com/2011/2/8/19...s-he-would-accept-a-fight-with-anderson-silva
 

LookBehindYou

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2010
2,412
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I'm stoked for this fight. I like shogun, he's a beast, definitely the GOAT LHW. I've liked Jones since I saw his first UFC fight, i just want to see him really tested. I can't remember if he was put in any trouble by bonnar or not.

I think the biggest question mark is going to be how healthy shogun is and what kind of shape he's in. If he's 100% and in shape, then he just has more tools than jones does.

Tough one to bet on, but if i was forced, i'd bet on Shogun. I wish more people saw what he did in Pride, simply epic.

word.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
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Even if Jon Jones becomes the GOAT eventually, Shogun will be the 2nd GOAT. You cannot deny Shogun's greatness even if he loses in devastating fashion.

The man has beat EVERY TOP LHW under the godamn sun in the last 5-6 years.

If Shogun demolishes Jon Jones I bet you guys will jump bandwagons and not support Jon Jones. I will continue supporting both fighters. I can't stand bandwagon hoppers.

If Shogun gets knocked out cold I will still continue to support him, but the chances of that are not as high as Bones getting KO'd.


There's only been one fighter that I've jumped on the bandwagon of, and that's Brock, but only because there wasn't much else in the HW division. I liked Silvia until his non-fight with Arlovski which was one of the most boring fights, and the last time I purchased a UFC event, ever. I lost a lot of respect for him after that fight.

But, my bigger point is here you go again with your Me vs The World BS. You aren't the only one who keeps up with these guys and the various fighting organizations. And just because some of us have a different opinion on Jones, or whoever, doesn't make us bandwagoners. You need to stop looking like a fool.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
I'm stoked for this fight. I like shogun, he's a beast, definitely the GOAT LHW. I've liked Jones since I saw his first UFC fight, i just want to see him really tested. I can't remember if he was put in any trouble by bonnar or not.

I think the biggest question mark is going to be how healthy shogun is and what kind of shape he's in. If he's 100% and in shape, then he just has more tools than jones does.

Tough one to bet on, but if i was forced, i'd bet on Shogun. I wish more people saw what he did in Pride, simply epic.

word.

Bonnar - No, Jones was never in any trouble. Bonner was murdered by Jones, but somehow made it to the decision. It was nasty for Bonner though, not sure he landed one solid punch to Jones.
 

TheNinja

Lifer
Jan 22, 2003
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Bonnar - No, Jones was never in any trouble. Bonner was murdered by Jones, but somehow made it to the decision. It was nasty for Bonner though, not sure he landed one solid punch to Jones.

Ya, it's kind of funny that Bonnar probably did the best against Jones of anyone else he fought - and Bonnar really mounted no offense. Of course the thing with Bonnar is that he has NEVER been stopped other than doctor stoppage due to cuts from Machida and Soszyniski. He's a tough SOB.

I'd still bet on Shogun b/c I see this as a toss up fight and Shogun has the better return for your money.
 

LookBehindYou

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2010
2,412
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Bonnar - No, Jones was never in any trouble. Bonner was murdered by Jones, but somehow made it to the decision. It was nasty for Bonner though, not sure he landed one solid punch to Jones.


Cool, i didnt think he was but man that fight seems like ages ago, couldnt remember. Between ufc, dream, strikeforce, sengoku, bellator, and k-1 i lose track of fights fast.
 

wheresmybacon

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2004
3,899
0
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Everyone ready for Woosta to stop posting about MMA? Well it's going to happen after this Saturday.
 

Woosta

Diamond Member
Mar 23, 2008
3,006
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Didn't think Shogun was all that especially after the Griffin fight. The Lyoto 2 fight was impressive, but I think Jone is going to destroy him.

I haven't seen much of Shogun's pre-UFC stuff though.

The thing is, Shogun actually destroys and eats top 10 LHWs for lunch. Jon Jones has thus far only been doing it to lowly ranked guys.

Shogun does this regularly. Look at his entire career.

GSP does not finish and murder his fellow top 10 welterweights. He doesn't even finish fights.
Anderson Silva, while coming off that incredible KO of Vitor, does not finish and murder his fellow top 10 MWs.
Jose Aldo has been murdering his fellow top 10 but that whole division is very green and he hasn't been doing it as long and consistent as Shogun
Frankie Edgar doesn't finish guys.
Cain has only beaten Brock, that's just 1 top 10 finish.

Shogun has finished:

machida02a-752425.jpg


Machida, the "untouchable" "undefeatable" karate guy who was supposed to hold the title for years was KO'd brutally by Shogun.

shogun_rampage_32958.jpg

Rampage, the unfinishable guy with a granite chin who has ONLY been finished by fellow Chute Boxe Prime Wanderlei

shogun87-300x251.jpg

Alistair Overeem, the devastating K-1 level striker who's now a top 10 HW has been KO'd twice by Shogun

1261654840_g_display_image.jpg


Ricardo Arona, arguably the greatest grappler in all of MMA at one point was KO'd by Shogun. Shogun was the underdog.

mauricio-shogun-rua-knocks-out-chuck-liddell.jpg

Chuck Liddell, arguably the greatest LHW ( along with Wanderlei ) was KO'd by Shogun

Cyrille-Diabate.jpg

Cyrille Diabete, K-1 level striker was stomped to death by Shogun

kevin-randleman.jpg

Kevin Randleman, former UFC HW champion who is as great as Jon Jones as a wrestler and at one time even knocked out Cro Cop, was submitted.

Evangelista-Santos.jpg

Cyborg, which was Shogun's 3rd fight in MMA was finished via TKO.

The LHW division is probably the most stacked because anyone can finish anyone else on any given night, and LHWs are much faster than HWs. The UFC LHW title since ( Chuck? ) lost it hasn't been defended successfully yet ( Machida didn't defend it )

Shogun has faced stronger fighters before and KO'd them:

- Alistair
- Arona
- Randleman
- Mark Coleman
- Rampage

Shogun has faced better strikers before:

- Alistair
- Snake
- Rampage
- Lil Nog
- Machida
- Chuck Liddell

Shogun has faced better wrestlers before:

- Rampage
- Randleman
- Coleman

Shogun has faced better grapplers before:

- Babalu
- Lil Nog
- Ricardo Arona

Shogun has beaten Alistair Overeem and Ricardo Arona on the same night, within 1-2 hours.

Jon Jones is not the toughest Shogun has faced but he does pose a legit threat. Shogun will most likely walk through him like he walks through all the elite LHWs.

In before Jon Jones gets decimated and everyone calls him a can.

Shogun did not train his cardio for the Forrest fight. You cannot deny this.
Shogun won the first Machida fight, or at worst it was a draw.
Shogun lost to Babalu fair and square. Babalu was too seasoned of a veteran for Shogun early on.
Shogun's first loss to Coleman was a freak accident.
Shogun's shit performance against Coleman was because of his double knee surgery. You cannot deny this.
 
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