Tunisia unrest spreading? Unrest in Egypt

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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Agreed, to all three. Although I can recognize the justice of something without having to like its results. LOL

Someone in Europe was mighty popular pre WWII too, fidelity to democracy without considering mores/tenants of people involved is digging graves for the next world war IMO and should not be supported if it's against our morals and national security interests. Democracy among some is 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner no justice found.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Someone in Europe was mighty popular pre WWII too, fidelity to democracy without considering mores/tenants of people involved is digging graves for the next world war IMO and should not be supported if it's against our morals and national security interests. Democracy among some is 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner no justice found.
Oh, I definitely think we should support only what we perceive to be in our own interests. But that's a different question. Just as we have the right to support or oppose as we choose, they have the right to choose for themselves. Democracy is no panacea and certainly no substitute for freedom, but it's better than a president for life - although I suspect they'll keep real democracy no better than did the Iranians. Democracy and Islam are uncomfortable bedfellows at best.
 

TareX

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Jan 10, 2011
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The internet is still out. Cellphones are back online (in certain areas). It's do-or-die for the regime.

The uprising started with the call of one of Egypt's biggest facebook groups: "We are all Khaled Saeed" (in Arabic). Khaled Saeed is an Egyptian blogger in Alexandria who posted online a video of police officers distributing the spoils of a drug bust among themselves. He was dragged out of an internet cafe, and beaten to death in a nearby building. Later, police said he "chocked on a roll of weed". Here's his face after he "chocked on a roll of weed":

Graphic embedded image removed. Link to image: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4695482110_e175ff0100.jpg

Khaled's face before:
Khaled-Said.jpg


The Alexandrian police station that killed Khaled Saeed has been burnt down earlier yesterday.

The military -an extremely respected establishment- has been deployed in the country, and are being greeted everywhere. They moved on to protect certain buldings like the Egyptian Museum...etc. Thousands of protesters formed a human shield around the Egyptian Museum to protect it from being robbed.

I would like to make it clear that this is an intellectual uprising -made up mainly of tech savvy youths under 30 with smartphones and facebook accounts, and not a religious one, by any stretch of imagination. This is a peaceful march, with demands for the end of a 30-yr long reign of a corrupt tyrant -a march made violent by 30-year old Egyptian police brutality, protecting and serving a autocratic authoritarian rule. We want equality for all, and most importantly, accountability for all. Egypt is a third world country, when its intellectuals know it shouldn't be.

As a matter of fact, the Islamist fractions were the only oppositional segments in Egypt who declined from participating in the first 3 days of the uprising; some extremist fractions -like the Alexandrian Salafis- went as far as issuing fatwas that call for oppositional leaders like Elbaradei to be slain for opposing "the ruler". They also issued fatwas that forbid people from "going out against the ruler".

The Egyptian government have been trying to falsely associate islamists with the uprising in order to get a "Green light" to brutally clamp down on the protesters with live ammunition -which they have already attempted in cities like Suez.

The Egyptian guards have also hired mercenaries to do their "dirty work", including ripping parts of the city apart in order to justify the use of live ammunition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsqzKwJsmAU

Reports of members of the Mubarak family flying to London have been supplemented by reports of the Egyptian Ambassador in London leaving the embassy to greet "high profile newcomers" at Heathrow airport, last Tuesday. The Big man himself is rumored to have taken a plane from Almaza airport to King Khaled airport in Saudi Arabia.

We do not want an Islamist government, we do not want another authoritarian. People simply want a self-sustainable and transparent democracy, where everyone is equal in rights, and accountability.

The cabinet change is LAUGHABLE. More protests coming, I'm sure. By the end of next week, he won't be in power.

After complaints about the embedded graphic image, it was switched to a link, giving reader's a choice of whether to see it or not. -Admin DrPizza
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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I wish you and countrymen best of luck and stay safe.

How long until the extremists like MB are able to use this situation to their advantage? My fear is these moderates/freedom fighters are simply paving the way for radicals to move in and fill the power vacuum. Who else is there besides Muslim Brotherhood?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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I hope they get the savages who did this to Khaled too. Did they?
 

poohbear

Platinum Member
Mar 11, 2003
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What always gets me about these Arabs is just how well dressed they are. As for this "revolution" its just horseplay. Arabs don't have the courage for Democracy. If anything this will probably will lead to a United States of Iran. Good for them.

are u mental? its happening right NOW in FOUR arab countries (tunisia, lebanon, Egypt, Yemen).

and u have no shame that ur comment is blatantly racist and u're on the internet, i'd love for you to make such a comment face to face around normal ppl, but u dont cause u're a coward and love to show ur true face on the internet. When palaestinians voted in Hamas in a fair election as overseen by Jimmy Carter, wasnt that democracy??? im sorry they dont vote in the party that the USA favored, but hey me and & hundreds of millions around the world dont like the Republican party in the USA to be voted in, but that would be undemocratic to isolate a party whose views clash with ours.

Muslim brotherhood are'nt any more extremist than Evangelical Christians are in the US. Imagine if Evanglical Christians were NOT allowed to have the Republican party represent them? All hell would break loose and im sure they would'nt turn the other cheek as Jesus preaches (especially since they have the ultra odd oxymoron of gun toting Christians).
 
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TareX

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Jan 10, 2011
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Khaled Said is one of hundreds killed by Police Brutality in Egypt over many decades. The only new player in the game -which led to the uprising, was facebook.

With facebook, with a click of a mouse, millions -literally- in the country would see videos showing Mubarak's doings. Millions would hear opposing voices to the regime. Before facebook, the only way you'd know someone was killed was if you read it in the newspaper. Two years before Facebook, independant newspapers were given a limited space of freedom (emphasis on limited). That helped steam out some anger. But you can't even hint at a demonstration in a newspaper. With facebook, you can mobilize an entire nation, which is exactly what happened.

When they turned the Internet off on Friday, they basically gave everyone who was following the uprising on facebook a reason to join it.

Unlike the respected army -who are university educated, Egyptian police are known to be more like regime thugs who have the best interest of the people LAST, as evidenced by what's happening now (looting, burning).

The youth had to form shields around historic buildings downtown to protect it, since the police was nowhere to be seen... Here's the youth in front of the Egyptian Museum:

protectingthemuseum.jpg


During the uprising, the police had its thugs (guards in civilian dress code) burning, looting, and ripping the city apart -trying to justify a violent response. So far, over 100 have been shot dead in three cities. Bodies haven't been buried yet. Others have been buried without their families seeing them, to hide them away. Watch the families' anger here: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

How long until the extremists like MB are able to use this situation to their advantage? My fear is these moderates/freedom fighters are simply paving the way for radicals to move in and fill the power vacuum. Who else is there besides Muslim Brotherhood?
The Muslim Brotherhood are the largest "organized" opposition, only because the other secular groups were disfractionated -till a year ago when Elbaradei joined them together. The secular groups -and only the secular groups- were responsible for the uprising over that started Tuesday.

That said, the MB have undergone transformational changes over the past decade or two... I wouldn't call them "jihadists" at all. As a matter of fact, the Muslim Brotherhood were the ones who organized the Muslim human shield around Coptic churches during Coptic Christmas, a week after Alqaeda attacked the Christians in Alexandria -and needless to say, they're publically anti-Alqaeda. However, most people in the big cities do not want them in power. They draw their support from the smaller cities in the Nile delta.

I wouldn't worry at all about the MB taking control of the country. The army wouldn't serve under a MB rule, plain and simple. The MB know that. They would only be satisfied by a decent chunk of the parliament.

Will there be a void after Mubarak? Of course. Over 30 years, he was known to distance any potential competitor -even those under the umbrella his own regime and ruling party, going as far as placing them under house arrest and framing them with scandals.

There are many names suggested...

General Abdel-Salam Al-Mahgoub: Current minister of development (after being too popular as --->), ex-Govorner of Alexandria and Ismaeleyya (Egypt's #2 and #4 cities); beloved by the people, known for transparency and not being corrupt, known for transforming both cities and cleaning them up, supported by the army, connected within the system, supported by Amr Khaled (biggest moderate muslim preacher in the Arab world).

Amr Moussa: Current head of the Arab league (after being too popular as --->); ex-Minister of Foreign affairs; loved by the people. However, most of his accomplishments (mideast negotiations) were thanks to the efforts of the chief of intelligence, Omar Soliman.

General Omar Soliman: Egyptian chief of intelligence over 18 years. Very secretive. Responsible for all Middle-east negotiations. Respected in the country and out.

Mohamed Elbaradei: Well known Noble Peace prize laureate, ex-Head of UN Nuclear Agency, brought in the country by the oppositional groups to bring them together and serve as an internationally recognized face. His support inside the country was immense over the past year, up to 6 months ago. Since then, it's been declining rapidly, and he isn't enjoying as strong a support as he used to, being viewed as a "tourist". Needless to say, he is not connected in the regime at all, and won't be supported by the army.

Gamal Mubarak: Yeah that dude is history. May he enjoy his $225 million apartment in 1 Hyde Park, London.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Thank you TareX for the information and best of luck to you.

The part about Muslim Brotherhood is questionable since they just Declared War on America recently tho.
http://www.gloria-center.org/gloria/2010/10/muslim-brotherhood-declares-war-on-america

--Arab and Muslim regimes are betraying their people by failing to confront the Muslim's real enemies, not only Israel but also the United States. Waging jihad against both of these infidels is a commandment of Allah that cannot be disregarded. Governments have no right to stop their people from fighting the United States. "They are disregarding Allah's commandment to wage jihad for His sake with [their] money and [their] lives, so that Allah's word will reign supreme" over all non-Muslims.

--All Muslims are required by their religion to fight: "They crucially need to understand that the improvement and change that the [Muslim] nation seeks can only be attained through jihad and sacrifice and by raising a jihadi generation that pursues death just as the enemies pursue life." Notice that jihad here is not interpreted as so often happens by liars, apologists, and the merely ignorant in the West as spiritual striving. The clear meaning is one of armed struggle.

--The United States is immoral, doomed to collapse, and "experiencing the beginning of its end and is heading towards its demise."

--Palestinians should back Hamas in overthrowing the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and unite in waging war on Israel.

Incidentally, what Melanie Philips has written on this issue fits perfectly here:

--Rational calculations of the kind applied by the West to its adversaries, mirror-imaging, assuming that Muslims won't act in a revolutionary and even suicidal manner want a better future for their children, etc., do not apply to the Islamist movement:

"Allah said: 'The hosts will all be routed and will turn and flee [Koran 54:45].' This verse is a promise to the believers that they shall defeat their enemies, and [that the enemies] shall withdraw. The Companions of the Prophet received this Koranic promise in Mecca, when they were weak... and a little more than nine years [later], Allah fulfilled his promise in the Battle of Badr....Can we compare that to what happened in Gaza?....Allah is the best of schemers, and that though Him you shall triumph. Islam is capable of confronting oppression and tyranny, and that the outcome of the confrontation has been predetermined by Allah."

This says: It doesn't matter how long the battle goes on, how many die, how much destruction is unleashed, how low your living standards fall, how unfavorable the odds appear to be, none of that is important or should deter you.

In the real world, of course, the Islamists are unlikely to win over the long run of, say, 50 or100 years. But those views do mean that these 50 or 100 years are going to be filled with instability and bloodshed.

Equally, Badi's claims do not mean all Muslims must agree, much less actively take up arms. They can have a different interpretation, simply disregard the arguments, and be too intimidated or materialistic or opportunistic to agree or to act. Yet hundreds of thousands will do so and millions will cheer them on. And by the same token, neither the radical nor the passive will assist in moving toward more moderation or peace or compromise.

Well, will the problem go away if people in the West condemn "Islamophobia" or make concessions or apologize or produce a just peace? No.

His words provide some important points for people in the West to consider:

"Resistance is the only solution.... The United States cannot impose an agreement upon the Palestinians, despite all the means and power at its disposal. [Today] it is withdrawing from Iraq, defeated and wounded, and it is also on the verge of withdrawing from Afghanistan. [All] its warplanes, missiles and modern military technology were defeated by the will of the peoples, as long as [these peoples] insisted on resistance - and the wars of Lebanon and Gaza, which were not so long ago, [are proof of this]."
 
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TareX

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Jan 10, 2011
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100,000 already protesting in Cairo alone, 2 hours ahead of schedule.

The MB again, are anti-Mubarak. If the US is pro-Mubarak, their statements will be anti-US.

for e.g.

El-Baradei is anti-Mubarak. Even though he's known to be secular, and his daughter is a declared agonist, and his family was seen consuming alcohol at a wedding, the MB are pro El-Baradei.

Again, the MB cannot rule the country. They can only have a "voice" in the parliament, something they've been denied for a good 50-60 yrs.
 

TareX

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I'd like to add that the US had a pretty darn good reason to support Mubarak over the past 30 years, since he was -indeed, the only other option that wasn't hardcore Islamic. No longer is that true.
 

TareX

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Jan 10, 2011
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live feed here if anyone is interested

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

they are saying 100+dead...TareX why are so many dead? Are they responding with live ammo?

How are you on if net is down?

I'm in Halifax, Canada. My entire family is in Egypt. We live next to the presidential palace, which is -intelligently, placed on the other side of the city in Heliopolis, away from all the action and governmental buildings (oh, and it's protected by its own army).

The internet is out, but cellphones are working. I'm following the R.N.N. on facebook, who are associated with the "We are all Khaled Said", the organizers of the uprising. They have people in all cities, in every demonstration, reporting back to them.

+100 dead, and expected A LOT MORE when the internet comes back on, whenever that happens (I suspect right before Sunday, the first work day in Egypt). They used live ammunition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsqzKwJsmAU

That's partially why they closed the internet down. To kill at will.
 
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TareX

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In a city of 20 million, the police (a.k.a thugs) have pulled out. Civilians are seen directing traffic now.
 

TareX

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Police and security are completely absent in Sinai. Military of course cannot access Sinai (Camp David Peace agreement with Israel).

Civilian groups have formed "teams" to protect banks and national establishments.

UPDATE: Armed thugs of the ruling party are randomly attacking civilians protecting Sinai establishments.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Wat are you watching?

AJ is saying


50,000 protesters currently in Tahrir Square Cairo
100+ protesters killed by police
23 protesters killed in Alexandria
4pm to 8am curfew in major cities LOL not going to happen
At least 2 Army M113s burnt
 

TareX

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Jan 10, 2011
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Wat are you watching?

AJ is saying


50,000 protesters currently in Tahrir Square Cairo
100+ protesters killed by police
23 protesters killed in Alexandria
4pm to 8am curfew in major cities LOL not going to happen
At least 2 Army M113s burnt
Thanks man. The Army M113 is "charred" not burnt. There is zero confrontation between the people and the army. All burned vehicles are those of the security forces from yesterday...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Yea sorry - The m113s look the same maybe.

I am confused on all the forces Mubarak has anyway I bet media is too.

Seems like Mubarak is just using Army to protect state buildings, TV, power plants and stuff not attacking or moving crowds. Maybe he is hoping crowd tire and die out after a bit then he can continue his 'reforms' in peace
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Every single police station in Alexandria is burnt down according to AJ.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Man I'm not sure it's a good idea for them to become westernized. Everyone is so thin there. Not fat like saudis or USA people.

Anyway 35 min till curfew starts streets still full.
 
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TareX

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Curfew is a joke... won't happen, don't worry. There's no one to enforce it, or anyone who can or wants to enforce it.
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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I'm worried that they may go after our Embassy and other American interests there.