Tunisia unrest spreading? Unrest in Egypt

[bfdd]

Americans need to think long and hard about whether we really want democracy in the Middle East.

It may be inspiring and nice to see these Middle Eastern liberal kids and their technocrat leadership protesting out in the street, fighting for freedumb so they can log on to Facebook. But the sad cruel fact is that if democracy was really established in all of these countries, the majority which would win elections are blood thirsty, crazed, hate spewing Islamofascists who will support Hamas, support Al Qaeda, be hostile to Israel, and hamper America's attempts to bring freedumb, peace, and liberalization of societies and markets to the region.

I say let it happen then. If that happens we will have an easier time justifying our actions over there. Hell we would probably even take the kiddie gloves off and show them how the big boys really play.

 

[Narmer]

Americans need to think long and hard about whether we really want democracy in the Middle East.

It may be inspiring and nice to see these Middle Eastern liberal kids and their technocrat leadership protesting out in the street, fighting for freedumb so they can log on to Facebook. But the sad cruel fact is that if democracy was really established in all of these countries, the majority which would win elections are blood thirsty, crazed, hate spewing Islamofascists who will support Hamas, support Al Qaeda, be hostile to Israel, and hamper America's attempts to bring freedumb, peace, and liberalization of societies and markets to the region.

Your theory has no basis in reality.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Elections were indeed rigged in Egypt. I thought this was common knowledge. Also, the government has the habit of filling the electoral commission with sycophants. I think the only reason why you support this regime is because they are pro-Israel on many issues. Sadly, during the Iranian revolution people like you were pro-Shah because he supported Israel. Look at what happened then. Think about it, do you really want a hostile Egypt next to your beloved Israel? Also, why else on earth would you support this disgusting regime?

I do not recall hearing any outcry in the press about elections being rigged for Egypt. I will agree that the government there is heavy handed to those that oppose it in protests.

Having a hostile Egypt to Israel does not really bother me. Egypt has the military capacity to defend itself from neighbors. Nor do I think that any regime even not friendly to Israel, would want to poke Israel. They have seen what can happen and the loss of face and military would create a upset in the government. I do not think that it has the capacity to travel the length of the Sinai to attack Israel effectively without beign detected and/or another preemptive attack as in '67.

If a country wants to be hostile to another, let it. If a country wants to support attacks against another; then the consequences must be faced.

Israel and Syria for example. Cats hissing in the dark and not much else.
Israel and Lebanon - poke the tiger and get mauled. When the tigetr gets loose, it was poked and retaliated.

Some people do not seem to understand that concept!

 

[AshPhoenix]

Tiananmen-like courage in Cairo: Egypt's 25 Jan protests

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1m4_q_HP5o&feature=player_embedded

 

[KMFJD]

I do not recall hearing any outcry in the press about elections being rigged for Egypt. I will agree that the government there is heavy handed to those that oppose it in protests.

Are you blind or do you just not keep up with World events? Every time there are elections in Egypt there where articles about how corrupt they where.

 

[zephyrprime]

There have been elections in Egypt
There has been no outcry of rigged elections.

The above two items are what is considered the key to democracy.

While the results may not be what you desire, IE. change of government, are you able to demonstrate that no possibility existed for a change without a coup?

Don't be naive. The elections are a total sham and everyone knows it. There were elections in Iraq too before the fall of Saddam. Saddam regularly got 95% of the vote. Everyone knows that those elections were totally fraudulant. I would guess that elections in every country that has had the same dictator for more than a decade are a sham. There is no outcry because outcry is not allowed and it is not politically expedient for the international community to challenge the status quo.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Don't be naive. The elections are a total sham and everyone knows it. There were elections in Iraq too before the fall of Saddam. Saddam regularly got 95% of the vote. Everyone knows that those elections were totally fraudulant. I would guess that elections in every country that has had the same dictator for more than a decade are a sham. There is no outcry because outcry is not allowed and it is not politically expedient for the international community to challenge the status quo.

You may correct.

I read/hear about the central/east Africa elections being monitored and called a sham.
What makes those different than what happens in Egypt?

 

[AshPhoenix]

Election Fraud in Egypt's referendum on the infamous "constitutional amendments" that the regime made in 2007 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHuAeWyuZ8s



Egypt elections marred by fraud and thuggery :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv0ExRBo1GQ



Videos documenting electoral fraud by the ruling party of Egypt in 2010 parliamentary elections :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1DPseOpSRM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPA8ffSXu9Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyvu9UCu__k

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Are you blind or do you just not keep up with World events? Every time there are elections in Egypt there where articles about how corrupt they where.

If fox didn't tell him about it, then it clearly didn't happen.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Are you blind or do you just not keep up with World events? Every time there are elections in Egypt there where articles about how corrupt they where.

If fox didn't tell him about it, then it clearly didn't happen.

I will beg to differ.

For the past 8-10 years, most of my news has come via AT and related links from posts. :$
When multiple threads or a decent number of non-troll posts in a thread show up; then I can start to analyze information


I do not have the time in the AM/PM to watch news snippets from the world; that I know can be biased based on location and orientation. Local/State news and that is it for that time frame. Weekend paper time is better spent with the grandchildren.

 

[Narmer]

I will beg to differ.

For the past 8-10 years, most of my news has come via AT and related links from posts. :$
When multiple threads or a decent number of non-troll posts in a thread show up; then I can start to analyze information


I do not have the time in the AM/PM to watch news snippets from the world; that I know can be biased based on location and orientation. Local/State news and that is it for that time frame. Weekend paper time is better spent with the grandchildren.

So you admit you don't know what you're talking about?

 

[EagleKeeper]

So you admit you don't know what you're talking about?

With respect to Egypt and their political situation, very very little.

That is one of the reasons why I was asking questions on why our colleague has his opinions on the perceived lack of democracy.

 

[Narmer]

With respect to Egypt and their political situation, very very little.

That is one of the reasons why I was asking questions on why our colleague has his opinions on the perceived lack of democracy.

You asked him his definition of a democracy and dictatorship. Perhaps it would be better if you asked yourself the same question.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You asked him his definition of a democracy and dictatorship. Perhaps it would be better if you asked yourself the same question.

Dictatorship: Where one or a small group run the government and the people have no say in how. Political parties are prechosen and for election (if any) the results are pre-ordained. Challenges to the government will result in becoming a casuality; organized opposition is either directly/indirectly outlawed.

Democracy: People have the ability to change the style and makeup of the government via voting; not needing to resulting a change by force. Government obeys the collective will/result of the people in an pre-accepted basis

 

[Narmer]

Dictatorship: Where one or a small group run the government and the people have no say in how. Political parties are prechosen and for election (if any) the results are pre-ordained. Challenges to the government will result in becoming a casuality; organized opposition is either directly/indirectly outlawed.

Democracy: People have the ability to change the style and makeup of the government via voting; not needing to resulting a change by force. Government obeys the collective will/result of the people in an pre-accepted basis

It's quite clear Egypt is a dictatorship by your definitions.

 

[nageov3t]

I'd probably prefer a dictatorship over a fundamentalist Taliban-style government in Egypt.

 

[Narmer]

I'd probably prefer a dictatorship over a fundamentalist Taliban-style government in Egypt.

If you think a Taliban-style government will crop up in Egypt then you know little about Egypt. It is the most important country in the Arab/Muslim world. The most influential culturally and wrt religion.

 

[Lemon law]

I really have to love the Common Courtesy analogy about Israel.

"Israel and Syria for example. Cats hissing in the dark and not much else.
Israel and Lebanon - poke the tiger and get mauled. When the tigetr gets loose, it was poked and retaliated."

In terms of poked and prodded, not always the case, but humans all over the world put Tigers in escape proof enclosures called zoos, because prodded or poked or not, if Tigers escape, they are a clear and ever present danger to everyone in the area.

All over the world, there is now a conflict between human civilization and wild dangerous animals. Its why they are endangered species, and to a larger extent why we put them in a zoo or simply let them go extinct.

Tell us all Common Courtesy, how many darling pet tigers live with you. And can you trust em. Even if you hand raised them with a bottle, Tigers are not to be ever trusted.

 

[MovingTarget]

I wish the Egyptians luck in gaining a meaningful voice in their government again. I know Mubarak is a US ally and that his dictatorship is better than Islamist rule, but his remaining in power only serves our short-term goals. Long term, it is better for Egypt to be ruled by its people. True democracies rarely have full-scale conflict with each other.

 

[Pocatello]

The more Mubarak suppress his people, the more radicalized they will become because they are angry and have no where to turn to. The U.S should support the people of Egypt, not Mubarak. Right now, many Egyptians see America as the biggest supporter of a dictator whose time has long passed. America has been supporting many of the dictators in the Middle East for too long. These fat cats are living in luxury, wasting billions of dollars on themselves and buying fancy weapons from the West (such as the U.S), while the people are without jobs. I agree that in the short term, the U.S will be losing important allies in the Middle East, but for the long term, the U.S should not be supporting dictators. When the people turn against their dictators (they always do), they will see the U.S as the supporter of their hated leaders, and not as their friend.

 

[Lemon law]

Well said Pocatello.

But like, many I have to confess some ignorance about Egyptian internal politics, which is why a poster like AshPhoenix is a valuable forum asset on such questions.

As for me, I now see Egypt as nation on the move upward now that the long delayed Aswan Dam has become a reality. A rising tide can lift only some boats or all boats, depending on future Egyptian leadership.

 

[nyker96]

don't forget:

Hezbollah now controls Lebanon from election.

 

[zephyrprime]

You may correct.

I read/hear about the central/east Africa elections being monitored and called a sham.
What makes those different than what happens in Egypt?

There's nothing different about it. Most of the world's countries are banana republics run by tin pot dictators. There is nothing surprising or new about this. This has been the state of the world ever since the end of the age of monarchies and the later advent and end of the modern age of empires.

 

[Zebo]

If you think a Taliban-style government will crop up in Egypt then you know little about Egypt. It is the most important country in the Arab/Muslim world. The most influential culturally and wrt religion.

I don't see how you can say this with polling data like this:

Personally, I would consider anyone who thinks apostates and adulterers should be killed and thief maimed for life a fundamentalist and if they are acting on it they are an extremist. Take your pick 80% of Egypt's Muslims are fundamentalist or extremist.

The you have leading candidate such as ElBaradei, a former head of the UN International Atomic Energy Agency, who recently joined the Muslim Brotherhood classified as a terror org and certainly is fundamentalist if you disagree with terror description.

What is you evidence to suggest Egypt would be a secular peaceful democratic regime?

 

[poohbear]

i find it disgusting that the US, which wants to spread democracy, isnt supporting the uprisings. Was the founding of American democracy peaceful???? absolutely not! Any grass roots democracy is often preceded by an uprising from the people, South Korea is a perfect example (Gwangju massacre '79). Again, we're talking grass roots democracies by the people themselves, not hand me over democracies wherein a country is occupied/colonized, and then given independance (Canada by Britain/Japan by USA).

If we only want democracies in countries by secular parties, then we should not have the republican party in the USA, they are far from secular!