[TPU] Nvidia prepares "price cuts across it's entire lineup"

[SiliconWars]

It's natural to want the best card - Titan might be irrelevant but you'd still take one instead of a 780. All the hype is around the 290X but the 290 is guaranteed to be much better in perf/$. That's just the nature of graphics cards at the high end, you pay a lot more for not a lot more performance.

 

[Genx87]

The point is, even without Mantle AMD's cards will be better value. If you want to pay $500 for ~780 performance then get a R9 290, if you want to pay $700 for ~Titan performance get a 290X.

If the 780 made Titan irrelevant then just pretend the 290 makes the 290X irrelevant and buy a 290 for $500 instead. It's still better value than any of the Nvidia cards however you look at it, includes 3 free games and has the bonus potential of Mantle being awesome. For me that's as close to a slam dunk as you'll get in the GPU market.

The 780 made the Titan irrelevant. It still sells well enough. Either way lets wait and see what Mantle actually delivers before declaring it a game changer. I've seen too much of these game changing technologies show up on both sides that sound awesome on paper. But then delivers barely noticeable increases in performance.

 

[Elfear]

I've owned a 7970 since launch day, the drivers were never "utter garbage" turn down the hyperbole a bit.

+1

Drivers weren't flawless but they were far from utter garbage.

 

[RussianSensation]

I'm still waiting on the 400 dollar 780GTX pricepoint, either used or new, before I upgrade.

Not happening. Look how long NV has milked the pricing of GTX690/Titan at $1000.

9800 GX2 = $599
GTX295 = $499
GTX590 = $699
vs.
GTX690/Titan = $999

AMD/NV are now selling 2 year old 28nm tech 424-561mm2 die for $600-1000. Does anyone here believe that with rising wafer prices, a 20nm 425-550mm2 GPU will cost $499? The era of $499 flagship GPUs appears to be over.

A solid alternative is emerging in the form of 2 mid-range GPUs in SLI such as GTX760 SLI offering Titan level of performance for half the price. I think a lot of GPU owners will start considering GM104 based cards in SLI as the price premium for flagships seems unreasonable. If NV releases GM104 at $499 then, well we are screwed for 2nd gen in a row.

 

[Pewpz]

Any of you care to take a shot in the dark at estimations of what the price changes in nVidia's current cards (like the 760, 770, etc.) might be?

I know you can't be certain but I figure you've seen the industry move more than I have and might have some insight.

I'm in the market for a new card and wondering if I should wait... although I need the system for work and I can't wait too long

Thanks!

 

[slackingoff7]

I think you should stop spreading misinformation

http://www.eda-stds.org/edps/Papers/4-4 FINAL for Tom Quan.pdf

refer to slide 19.

16FF/28HPM 16FF/20SoC
Speed @ same total power 38% 20%
Total power saving @ same speed 54% 35%
Gate density 2X 1.1X

Since 16FF is 20% faster at same total power compared to 20SOC and 38% faster compared to 28HPM and if we keep speed with 28HPM as 1x and speed with 16FF as 1.38x then speed with 20nm is 1.38x / 1.2 = 1.15x

So there is a 15% speed improvement at same power from TSMC 28 HPM to TSMC 20 SOC. remember 28 HPM is the best 28nm high k process at TSMC and superior to TSMC's 28HP and 28HPL.

the key with 20nm is there is a close to doubling of transistor density at 1.9x. so this allows much bigger chips to be produced. they can be clocked at lower speeds/voltage so that within the same power budget you can still get a significant performance improvement. look at the Apple Cyclone core on Samsung's 28nm process.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7355/chipworks-provides-first-apple-a7-die-shot

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7335/the-iphone-5s-review/5

Cyclone clocked at 1.3 Ghz is competing with Baytrail boosting to 2.4 Ghz. Even in multithreaded benchmarks like cinebench r11.5 Baytrail is running at close to 2.4 Ghz. you can derive that from the scaling from single thread to multi thread performance.

TSMC, Samsung and GF are well funded to pursue these multi billion dollar efforts. Most importantly these foundries have customers who sell hundreds of millions of chips every year like Qualcomm, Apple, Nvidia, AMD and Samsung themselves. Their chips power desktop, mobile, console and PC gaming, HPC/servers and other markets like embedded. So there is no shortage of customers for these foundries.

If anything I have to say further node progresses are getting difficult and out of Intel's control as lithography becomes the primary constraint and not just the transistor device. There is a very good chance that Intel will not get to 7nm before the end of the decade. the 2 year node progression for Intel is going to be very difficult going forward. Intel 14nm requires double patterning immersion litho, 10nm requires quadruple pattering immersion litho and 7nm is mostly not possible without EUV. thats the reason Intel, TSMC and Samsung have invested in ASML for EUV development. still EUV seems to be ready only by the end of the decade.

http://www.intc.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=690165
http://www.asml.com/asml/show.do?ctx=5869&rid=46974
http://www.asml.com/asml/show.do?ctx=5869&rid=46903
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhandy/2012/08/27/whys-everyone-investing-in-asml/


this is utter crap. Why isn't Intel able to destroy Nvidia in HPC where Intel is competing with Knights Corner. Nvidia and AMD's architectures are vastly superior to Intel's for GPU compute and HPC. Nvidia dominates the HPC market with their Teslas. :biggrin:

For once in this subbforum, great information! Thanks!

 

[ShintaiDK]

Not happening. Look how long NV has milked the pricing of GTX690/Titan at $1000.

9800 GX2 = $599
GTX295 = $499
GTX590 = $699
vs.
GTX690/Titan = $999

AMD/NV are now selling 2 year old 28nm tech 424-561mm2 die for $600-1000. Does anyone here believe that with rising wafer prices, a 20nm 425-550mm2 GPU will cost $499? The era of $499 flagship GPUs appears to be over.

A solid alternative is emerging in the form of 2 mid-range GPUs in SLI such as GTX760 SLI offering Titan level of performance for half the price. I think a lot of GPU owners will start considering GM104 based cards in SLI as the price premium for flagships seems unreasonable. If NV releases GM104 at $499 then, well we are screwed for 2nd gen in a row.

When both companies spends a fortune of giving away free games and sponsoring titles with astronomical amounts. No wonder GPU prices goes up. Somebody got to pay. AMD didnt have a dime in profit from Q2 sales of dGPUs.

 

[RussianSensation]

When both companies spends a fortune of giving away free games and sponsoring titles with astronomical amounts. No wonder GPU prices goes up. Somebody got to pay. AMD didnt have a dime in profit from Q2 sales of dGPUs.

Thing is my GTX470s came with free Mafia 2, Just Cause 2, Cryostasis, Metro 2033. At the time, those were fairly new games too. As far as AMD/NV spending millions of dollars on developer relations, what changed since GTX480/580 days? NV worked closely on Lost Planet 2, Hawx 2, Crysis 2, Batman games. I am not buying the theory that expensive game bundles and developer relations costs are driving profitability into the ground. Those costs are too small in the grand scheme. You are looking at $3-5 million.

Also, one may argue that the cost of working with developers/bundling games sells more GPUs, offsetting those costs. Otherwise AMD and NV wouldn't run these programs. Yet, there is a track record of both doing it for a long time. ATI even bundled HL2 years as far back as 9600Pro days.

The majority of the cost could lie elsewhere - R&D and manufacturing/wafer costs. However, this wouldn't explain NV's record profit margins in the last couple of years. R&D for AMD should be much smaller than for 7970 since R9 290X is just an enlarged Tahiti XT, while GCN for Tahiti was a brand new architecture built from the ground-up. Wafer costs shouldn't be a factor since die size increased less than 17% (365 to 424). In 2 years, the cost of 28nm wafer should have come down at least 17% which means the cost of manufacturing Hawaii should not be much more than Tahiti XT. Also, NV's 780 is > 550mm2 and sells for $650 which means if AMD prices R9 290X at $600-650, they are making a killing margin wise.

The real reason for these prices is consumers keep paying.

7970 925mhz was 40-45% faster than 6970 for a price increase from $350ish to $549 (or 57%).

R9 290X is likely 30-35% faster than R9 280X/1Ghz 7970s for a price increase of at least 2x ($280-299 vs. $599 at least).

I realize the fastest GPU doesn't scale linearly in price/performance but boy this is the worst pricing disparity AMD has ever had from what I recall. One explanation is because of stagnation in the CPU space, the GPU is now by far the most important component in a system. With most PC gamers having no incentive to upgrade from 2500k/2600K, they have $ left over to go from a $300 to a $650-700 GPU since they are no longer buying a new mobo + intel CPU as that nets almost no gain in gaming performance. Tiny performance increases with Ivy and Haswell may be the driving force behind many PC gamers spending more $ on their GPU sub-system.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Bundled games are nothing more than a free value added service. And when both companies do it, it cancels one another out since there is no sales argument anymore. Then its nothing more than an extra expense by the companies that needs to be covered by consumers. And we are looking at far greater numbers than 3-5 million. Not to mention when AMD and nVidia have to throw 5-8 million $ just for a single game.

Try think on how many coders and engineers you could ahve for those money. To make performance better, if not simply translated into direct cost saving.

I would bet the first 100$ to 200$ on 290X/Titan cards goes to that expense.

 

[Subyman]

Bundled games are nothing more than a free value added service. And when both companies do it, it cancels one another out since there is no sales argument anymore. Then its nothing more than an extra expense by the companies that needs to be covered by consumers. And we are looking at far greater numbers than 3-5 million. Not to mention when AMD and nVidia have to throw 5-8 million $ just for a single game.

Try think on how many coders and engineers you could ahve for those money. To make performance better, if not simply translated into direct cost saving.

I would bet the first 100$ to 200$ on 290X/Titan cards goes to that expense.

No way they are dumping that much on games. They get game keys way below retail and is likely linked to Nvidia/AMD's help with the graphical optimization of the games. The closer the GPU manufacturers work with publishers, the more games we will see bundled. It is no surprise at all AMD is getting a BF4 edition seeing as they worked closely to get BF4 optimized for consoles.

Its a mutually beneficial relationship in which each are trading their specialties.

 

[nenforcer]

Any of you care to take a shot in the dark at estimations of what the price changes in nVidia's current cards (like the 760, 770, etc.) might be?

I know you can't be certain but I figure you've seen the industry move more than I have and might have some insight.

I'm in the market for a new card and wondering if I should wait... although I need the system for work and I can't wait too long

Thanks!

http://wccftech.com/nvidia-planning...x-titan-geforce-gtx-780-geforce-gtx-770-gpus/

Articles like this one and others suggest by late November, after nVidia has introduced a couple of new cards, (770Ti?, 750Ti?), also at slightly lower ($49) price points.

The new AMD cards are suppose to see retail availability on either Tuesday, October 8th or Tuesday, October 15th, depending upon where you read. Once the benchmarks and exact price points of those cards are known everyone will know more about what targets nVidia must hit.

 

[nenforcer]

These cards will sell out at $700, I guarantee you that. Nvidia has nothing close to the potential of Mantle.

Nvidia has had their own drawing / graphics rendering API and its called NVAPI. It has been used for several years and Battlefield 3 supports it just like Battlefield 4 will.

It's doesn't look like it has as much potential or optimization as Mantle has, considering Mantle will have support on the next generation consoles as well.

Please do your homework before making such a post. nVidia also has it own GPGPU programming API called CUDA which has far more industry support in HPC land than AMD's CloseToMetal (Stream SDK) ever did.

 

[blackened23]

Wrong. NVAPI is not a graphics rendering API. It is for utility that D3D does not provide but is not a full graphics rendering API. Per John Mcdonald @ nvidia:

"Please do your homework before you post"

NVAPI is not a low level rendering API. It's a catchall for any and all functionality that developers might want to leverage but cannot through the traditional D3D API.

As an example, NvAPI_D3D9_StretchRectEx. IDirect3DDevice9::StretchRect has a lot of restrictions imposed, many of which no longer make sense. This version of stretchrect handles more source and destination formats.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// FUNCTION NAME: NvAPI_D3D9_StretchRectEx
//
//! DESCRIPTION: This API copies the contents of the source resource to the destination
//! resource. This function can convert
//! between a wider range of surfaces than
//! IDirect3DDevice9::StretchRect. For example, it can copy
//! from a depth/stencil surface to a texture.
//!
//! The source and destination resources *must* be registered
//! with NvAPI before being used with NvAPI_D3D9_StretchRectEx().

 

[24601]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7401/nvidia-announces-gtx-660-gtx-650-ti-boost-price-cut

"Interestingly, NVIDIA did take the time to reiterate that these are the only price cuts that are taking place. The GTX 760 and GTX 770 are not getting price cuts and will remain at $249 and $399 respectively."

 

[wand3r3r]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7401/nvidia-announces-gtx-660-gtx-650-ti-boost-price-cut

"Interestingly, NVIDIA did take the time to reiterate that these are the only price cuts that are taking place. The GTX 760 and GTX 770 are not getting price cuts and will remain at $249 and $399 respectively."

The R9 280x just rendered the 770 as bad of a value as it gets! $100 more for the same thing. What a rip off.

 

[3DVagabond]

The R9 280x just rendered the 770 as bad of a value as it gets! $100 more for the same thing. What a rip off.

Wanna put a wager on it not mattering and people still buying it? lol

 

[wand3r3r]

This thread title could be changed. They are not cutting prices "across" the lineup. They simply dropped a couple low end prices very slightly. People buying the 770 get what they deserve (a rip off) at this point.

The current situation is pretty pathetic imo.

7970 Ghz 1.5 yrs ago = $500
680 1.5 yrs ago = $500

Almost 2 years later both get rebranded, the 770 only gets a $100 haircut while the r9 280x gets a $200 haircut (while being virtually equal +/- a couple %). Add in the fact that last generation they were $250 and $379 starting prices (560 ti and 6970).

This brings back the infamous motto "go premiums".

 

[hawtdawg]

so no cut for the 780 then? lame.

 

[3DVagabond]

so no cut for the 780 then? lame.

If people stop buying them the price will come down. It's not up to AMD to control nVidia's pricing.

 

[pcslookout]

If people stop buying them the price will come down. It's not up to AMD to control nVidia's pricing.

This.

That won't happen though we as a people decided how much we would pay for graphics cards by buying the GTX 780 and Titian in droves!

 

[3DVagabond]

If people still buy the 770 @ $100 more than the 280X, I don't have a clue how to logically address the market perception. Since the 770 came out it has had the advantage of being perceived as next gen with the 7970 appearing older (and I'm not talking by a few months). Now the 280X has the appearance of the shiny new product. We'll see if that matters or not.

 

[krumme]

If people still buy the 770 @ $100 more than the 280X, I don't have a clue how to logically address the market perception. Since the 770 came out it has had the advantage of being perceived as next gen with the 7970 appearing older (and I'm not talking by a few months). Now the 280X has the appearance of the shiny new product. We'll see if that matters or not.

Because reviewers like Anandtech will do (or are more or less forced to do because of demands in the review guidelines from NV i guess) an entire review of 770 cards without mentioning in the concluding remarks you can get similar performance for 100usd less.

Notice with the 280x you get the comparison to NV, because NV can not control AMD reviews at AT. AMD guidelines is less strict than NV, for the quite obvious reason, that NV is just plain bad value. AMD have different interest than NV.

That is the power of a big brand. Consumer perception is controlled by marketing on the backend so to speak.

It would be easy for us to know what is what, if the reviewguidelines was, by law, said to be made public. AT have a business to run, they cant take the step without others having to do the same imho.

 

[Borealis7]

so nVidia's counter to the entire R9 series is a $1k+ Titan Ultra?
the 7XX series has got to shift down in price.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

That is the power of a big brand. Consumer perception is controlled by marketing on the backend so to speak.

No, consumer perception of stupid and lazy consumers is controlled by marketing, people who are both smart and care, will always find the best deal for their needs.

No different to any other market in that regard to be honest.

 

[krumme]

No, consumer perception of stupid and lazy consumers is controlled by marketing, people who are both smart and care, will always find the best deal for their needs.

No different to any other market in that regard to be honest.

It takes time for consumers to be informed. They cant do that for all products. Marketing uses that fact. And btw not only to the bad for the consumer but often the oposite.

What you are saying is the same as saying you yourself is stupid.
Take a look at the last AT 770 review. I would say even good informed users comming to a nerd site like this is then withold the information 770 is very bad value. No wonder the card sells and thats even for a 30% premium. Bashing at consumers here is nonsense. And ofcource nv takes the premium when it can, no need to bash them either.