[TPU] Nvidia prepares "price cuts across it's entire lineup"

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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
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Time to move the goal posts, something you are VERY good at!

I didn't realize that this was BestBuy or TigerDirect forums. Interesting observation that oc vs. oc doesn't count from someone with an overclocked 460 card. It'll already been mathematically proven many times that 7970 and 7970 oc provided far better price/performance increase over 580 than 780/Titan did over 7970Ghz. I'll move on then as the data is there but you won't ever accept it anyway.

--

Looking forward to price cuts delivering more value to consumers instead of constant derailing of previous pricing of cards from 2 years ago.
 
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Jaydip

Diamond Member
Mar 29, 2010
3,691
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You mean the nVidia tax?

nVidia didn't HAVE to price the 780 at $650, but they did because they knew people would buy it. Has nothing to do with it being "gaming oriented", just like Titan doesn't NEED to cost $1k for them to make a profit. Just so we're clear, I absolutely have no problem with charging what they do for their cards, they're a business in it to make money.


Nah, 680 was the 5900Ultra successor!! OMG look 10,000% performance increase for the same price!!!!!! :D

Yes and something more.A 7.1 billion transistor monster is not cheap to make and I would be surprised if R9 290X fares better.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
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6/7 billion chips aren't cheap no but they aren't that much more expensive than 4 billion transistor chips that they need to cost between 2 and 3 times as much.

If Nvidia prices their top two cards at $650 and $1K, AMD has to price their faster card higher than $650. Nvidia will be forced to drop prices, then AMD will be forced to drop prices. That's how it's always been.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
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6/7 billion chips aren't cheap no but they aren't that much more expensive than 4 billion transistor chips that they need to cost between 2 and 3 times as much.

If Nvidia prices their top two cards at $650 and $1K, AMD has to price their faster card higher than $650. Nvidia will be forced to drop prices, then AMD will be forced to drop prices. That's how it's always been.

Says who? They priced the 5870 at 400$ and gained market parity in terms of discrete GPU share in 2010 (both brands around 50% discrete GPU share). The 5870 was a great GPU, and they need to replicate that. Sadly, it appears they may not if they go stupid with pricing; Performance isn't the only metric which factors in pricing, value added features and brand name recognition also plays a role. Like it or not, nvidia has the upper hand here because their brand is better established and users gravitate to them because of that - to be specific, nvidia has done WAY better than AMD in terms of their software for their hardware. Nvidia users buy nvidia products because of their software. AMD hasn't been up to snuff in that respect, therefore their brand name isn't as strong, period. Just because the 290X may perform slightly faster than the 780 doesn't mean it should be priced the same. Not if AMD wants to sell a lot of cards, that is.

With all of the bad press AMD has had with the utter garbage launch drivers of the 7970 and eyefinity CF, can AMD really get away with a price premium? I say no. If their track record was flawless? Sure they could. But I bought 7970s at launch and the driver situation in January '12 was pathetic to say the least. People remember these things. It affects purchase decisions.

I'd love for this card to give nvidia legitimate reason to worry. But if they price it in the stratosphere like you're suggesting, that would be literally the stupidest thing they could do. If the 290X performs as reported and is 600$, I think that would be a heck of a card. The 290 would be even better since it would presumably be a smidgen slower for maybe 500$ - a far better value than NV offers currently. Put in perspective, the 290 would be close to 780 performance for 450-500$ while nvidia only offers factory OC'ed 770s in this range, which will perform worse. (unless they release another SKU). But if AMD goes stupid with pricing? Like you're suggesting? Games over.

Performance isn't the only consideration for pricing. The software, value added features, and track record also play a role. On all 3 of the last metrics, AMD has lost to nvidia. Therefore AMD would be completely insane to price their stuff at a premium over NV. I say this as someone who wants the 290X to do relatively well - it can if AMD plays their cards right.
 
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AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
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I've owned a 7970 since launch day, the drivers were never "utter garbage" turn down the hyperbole a bit.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
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Performance isn't the only metric which factors in pricing, value added features and brand name recognition also plays a role. Like it or not, nvidia has the upper hand here because their brand is better established and users gravitate to them because of that - to be specific, nvidia has done WAY better than AMD in terms of their software for their hardware. Nvidia users buy nvidia products because of their software. AMD hasn't been up to snuff in that respect, therefore their brand name isn't as strong, period. Just because the 290X may perform slightly faster than the 780 doesn't mean it should be priced the same. Not if AMD wants to sell a lot of cards, that is.

With all of the bad press AMD has had with the utter garbage launch drivers of the 7970 and eyefinity CF, can AMD really get away with a price premium? I say no. If their track record was flawless? Sure they could. But I bought 7970s at launch and the driver situation in January '12 was pathetic to say the least. People remember these things. It affects purchase decisions.

I'd love for this card to give nvidia legitimate reason to worry. But if they price it in the stratosphere like you're suggesting, that would be literally the stupidest thing they could do. If the 290X performs as reported and is 600$, I think that would be a heck of a card. The 290 would be even better since it would presumably be a smidgen slower for maybe 500$ - a far better value than NV offers currently. Put in perspective, the 290 would be close to 780 performance for 450-500$ while nvidia only offers factory OC'ed 770s in this range, which will perform worse. (unless they release another SKU). But if AMD goes stupid with pricing? Like you're suggesting? Games over.

Performance isn't the only consideration for pricing. The software, value added features, and track record also play a role. On all 3 of the last metrics, AMD has lost to nvidia. Therefore AMD would be completely insane to price their stuff at a premium over NV. I say this as someone who wants the 290X to do relatively well - it can if AMD plays their cards right.

AMD is going to price R9 290X such that they can maximize profit and also sell well. if R9 290X beats a GTX 780 and works fine out of the box in single and multi GPU and both in single and multi monitor nobody is going to talk about the past. AMD will be commended on a good GPU product and for incorporating frame pacing and improving multi GPU performance and frametime consistency.

http://techreport.com/news/25428/dr...inity-4k-frame-pacing-issues-coming-this-fall

"AMD's newest Radeon GPU, the "Hawaii" chip that will power the Radeon R9 290 and 290X cards announced earlier today, will of course be a top priority, as well. Although we can't yet divulge too many details, we expect Hawaii-based graphics cards to arrive with a very capable solution for CrossFire frame compositing and pacing already in place.

Some of the new Radeon cards announced today that are based on older GPUs like Tahiti and Pitcairn will presumably have to wait for the fall driver release in order to see this issue resolved. "

http://www.pcper.com/news/General-T...cing-Driver-CrossFire-Eyefinity-and-4K-Autumn

"Editor's Note: I just spoke with Raja Koduri as well and he basically reiterated everything that Scott noted in his story on The Tech Report as well. The upcoming 290X will have frame pacing at Eyefinity and 4K resolution at launch while the cards below that in the R9 series, and users of Radeon HD 7000 cards (and likely beyond) will need some more time before the driver is ready. I'll be able to talk quite a bit more about the changes to BOTH architectures very shortly so stay tuned for that."

http://anandtech.com/show/7379/amd-comments-on-upcoming-crossfire-eyefinity-frame-pacing-driver

"AMD is currently targeting a mid-fall release for the phase 2 fixes, phase 2 being the frame pacing improvements for Crossfire Eyefinity. Based on what we’re hearing that would be a November release, however AMD has also made it clear that they’re trying to push these fixes through as fast as they reasonably can. So if AMD can speed it up at all we’d certainly expect them to, as no one over at AMD seems to be happy that phase 2 is taking so long."


So R9 280X and R9 270X will mostly have to wait till early - mid Nov for the complete frame pacing solution. But Hawaii looks to be ready with the solution at launch on Oct 15th. AMD will be judged on actual product performance and not the past. you will anyway see reviews on Oct 15th. so you will get an idea.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
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If you don't think "the past" affects consumer perceptions of a brand, I really do feel sorry for you. That's actually funny if you don't think that has an affect. Fact of the matter is that AMD has made a ton of screw up and consumers do not easily forget these things. Nvidia is and always has been better in terms of software than AMD, AMD doesn't have the brand strength nor customer loyalty to price their wares in the stratosphere. Nvidia can do it because they've earned it. Apple has earned it - they create quality products that consumers love. AMD has not earned it. AMD saddled the 7970 with poor software, the launch drivers didn't even work with eyefinity, no WHQL drivers until March IIRC, and had a host of issues that were well publicized. Consumers don't forget these things. I think the 7970 ended up being a great card and a great value - but at launch? They screwed everything up.

By all means continue thinking that a 290X priced higher than a GTX 780 will sell, though.

Let me be clear: I *want* the 290X to do well. I *want* renewed competition. I *want* nvidia to be pressured into product line price reductions - and that WIlL happen if AMD plays their cards right with the 290X. I feel bad for you if you think that AMD pricing it above the 780 will actually sell. Good luck with that. If AMD mimicks the 5870 launch with the 290X, the market will be interesting. (the 5870 was launched at 399$, while the GTX 280 was 650$? IIRC..) If AMD does what you say, in other words, price the 290X in the realm of stupidity, prepare for disappointment. AMD has not earned the right, so to speak, to price their brand at a premium. Their software is worse than nvidia's. They do not have the same level of value added features. Their "history" (especially the 7970 launch driver situation) is downright bad with the 7970. Nvidia's surround "just works". AMDs? Well i'm sure you can see where I can go with that - and that is pretty sad because AMD *created* surround with the introduction of eyefinity.. Yes, I know AMD has made strides in terms of software, but affecting consumer perception is cumulative - AMD has had way too much negative press recently to think that they can simply put a price premium on their stuff. 600$ at the most is what most would consider for a 290X. Hell, 600$ would be a good price IMHO. 700-729$ is not. If AMD prices it there, then i'm afraid AMD's incompetence has struck again.
 
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Jun 24, 2012
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Even if you take brand and reputation out of the mix, the fact is you shouldn't show up months after the release of a competitor card with similar performance characteristics and try to price the same as the established brand with a PR campaign built around missing data and playing it fast 'n loose with specs, availability, and pricing, then reveal the specs lead to similar performance and pricing as the competitor who came months ago.

How does that end well? On the one hand, you build up demand for a certain class of performance and when you show your hand, you don't have enough product to satisfy demand. Since the price is virtually the same as the other guy, you watch your audience shrug and go buy the other guy they talked themselves into the price range of.

Look at the Geforce 680. It came months after the 7970. Performance was only a smidge better (at the time due to drivers), but the performance per watt was superior in most cases. nVidia still dropped the price by $50 and was hailed as the value champs for it. They repeated that with the 670 and then the 660 Ti. Radeon only started selling again when they committed to HUGE price drops that were bigger than they'd have had to be had they started at reasonable pricing from the beginning.

I just don't see why the R9 290X should buck the trend of "If you're MONTHS late to the party and your performance is mostly the same, you have to price a bit lower because you're new and mostly the same." Otherwise, why would people seeing all this uncertainty only to be revealed as mostly the same NOT choose the known quantity if they're dropping way over $500 anyway? Who chooses the unknown and rolls them bones, hoping for the best when they're throwing down $650+ on anything?

Which brings you back around to brand recognition, reputation, and recent history...
 
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raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
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If you don't think "the past" affects consumer perceptions of a brand, I really do feel sorry for you. That's actually funny if you don't think that has an affect. Fact of the matter is that AMD has made a ton of screw up and consumers do not easily forget these things. Nvidia is and always has been better in terms of software than AMD, AMD doesn't have the brand strength nor customer loyalty to price their wares in the stratosphere. Nvidia can do it because they've earned it. Apple has earned it - they create quality products that consumers love. AMD has not earned it. AMD saddled the 7970 with poor software, the launch drivers didn't even work with eyefinity, no WHQL drivers until March IIRC, and had a host of issues that were well publicized. Consumers don't forget these things. I think the 7970 ended up being a great card and a great value - but at launch? They screwed everything up.

By all means continue thinking that a 290X priced higher than a GTX 780 will sell, though.

Let me be clear: I *want* the 290X to do well. I *want* renewed competition. I *want* nvidia to be pressured into product line price reductions - and that WIlL happen if AMD plays their cards right with the 290X. I feel bad for you if you think that AMD pricing it above the 780 will actually sell. Good luck with that. If AMD mimicks the 5870 launch with the 290X, the market will be interesting. (the 5870 was launched at 399$, while the GTX 280 was 650$? IIRC..) If AMD does what you say, in other words, price the 290X in the realm of stupidity, prepare for disappointment. AMD has not earned the right, so to speak, to price their brand at a premium. Their software is worse than nvidia's. They do not have the same level of value added features. Their "history" (especially the 7970 launch driver situation) is downright bad with the 7970. Nvidia's surround "just works". AMDs? Well i'm sure you can see where I can go with that - and that is pretty sad because AMD *created* surround with the introduction of eyefinity.. Yes, I know AMD has made strides in terms of software, but affecting consumer perception is cumulative - AMD has had way too much negative press recently to think that they can simply put a price premium on their stuff. 600$ at the most is what most would consider for a 290X. Hell, 600$ would be a good price IMHO. 700-729$ is not. If AMD prices it there, then i'm afraid AMD's incompetence has struck again.

the pre-orders seem to be good for the R9 290X BF4 edition even without pricing information.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=25052538&postcount=198

so I don't think AMD need to worry. also AMD is in a much better situation to exploit demand for the holiday season. they are bundling the hottest game title and the current benchmarks of HD 7970 Ghz in BF4 bode very well for R9 290X. not to forget the Mantle effect in December. DICE and AMD did not spend 2+ years for nothing. Mantle is a game changer and you will see it soon. Hell this December there are going to be a lot of Nvidia users jumping ship just due to BF4 Mantle. Frostbite 3 is the first next gen game engine to integrate Mantle. But AMD will speak of other developers at AMD Fusion developer summit in Nov. You are stuck in the past while AMD has been executing on a much broader vision which will have massive repercussions in the coming months :biggrin:
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
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Look at it this way.

The 290X is a Titan competitor, is a tiny bit slower overall (wins a lot of games though) and costs $300 less.

The 290 is a 780 competitor, is a tiny bit slower overall (wins a lot of games though) and costs $100-$150 less.

You get more memory, more games and the promise of "RIDICULE" in BF4. What's not to like?
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
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Sorry, the 780 made Titan irrelevant a long time ago. The 780 overclocked passes the Titan anyway. So that argument does not hold water. There is an 8% difference between the GTX 780 and the Titan, nobody these days even gives the Titan a thought - except guys running 3x 4k screens. The only real target for AMD to look at in terms of pricing is the GTX 780, period.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
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the pre-orders seem to be good for the R9 290X BF4 edition even without pricing information.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=25052538&postcount=198

so I don't think AMD need to worry. also AMD is in a much better situation to exploit demand for the holiday season. they are bundling the hottest game title and the current benchmarks of HD 7970 Ghz in BF4 bode very well for R9 290X. not to forget the Mantle effect in December. DICE and AMD did not spend 2+ years for nothing. Mantle is a game changer and you will see it soon. Hell this December there are going to be a lot of Nvidia users jumping ship just due to BF4 Mantle. Frostbite 3 is the first next gen game engine to integrate Mantle. But AMD will speak of other developers at AMD Fusion developer summit in Nov. You are stuck in the past while AMD has been executing on a much broader vision which will have massive repercussions in the coming months :biggrin:

"AMD is in a much better situation to exploit demand"

The heck? I don't even understand why you would say this. Why would I want a company to exploit me? Are you speaking as a consumer or a stock holder? Give me a break. Mark my words. A 290X priced above nvidia, without AMD having's nvidia's reputation and history of high quality software will not go well. Again, AMD has not earned the right because they don't have nvidia's software or value added features. If anything, AMD needs to mimic the 5870 launch, that could bring something interesting to the market. A 700$+ 290X will not be interesting, consumers will simply shrug their shoulders with disinterest. Worse, most of them will simply buy a 660$ factory overclocked GTX 780 and laugh at the fact that AMD priced their 290X at 700$+ - some of these people might bite at a 600$ 290X, though. 600$ or less would be the smart move by AMD. 700$ would be the way to ensure failure.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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With the release of these AMD cards and a price drop from Nvidia. Looks like I picked the right time to sell my GTX 470 to a buddy.
 

Jaydip

Diamond Member
Mar 29, 2010
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@raghu78 BF4 is indeed going to be a massive hit but NV can steal the thunder with GTAV.NV already semi confirmed this title earlier and if it comes bundled with NV cards it won't be an one sided battle as you think.
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
2,346
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"AMD is in a much better situation to exploit demand"

The hell? Are you speaking as a consumer or a stock holder? Give me a break. Mark my words. A 290X priced above nvidia, without AMD having's nvidia's reputation and history of high quality software will not go well. Again, AMD has not earned the right because they don't have nvidia's software or value added features. If anything, AMD needs to mimic the 5870 launch, that could bring something interesting to the market. A 700$+ 290X will not be interesting, consumers will simply shrug their shoulders with disinterest.

Not sure if serious. Do you even comprehend how much value Mantle and BF4 has added to these cards? IF AMD launches at $700 instead of a previously planned $600 it's been down to the events of the past week.

These cards will sell out at $700, I guarantee you that. Nvidia has nothing close to the potential of Mantle.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
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Sorry, the 780 made Titan irrelevant a long time ago. The 780 overclocked passes the Titan anyway. So that argument does not hold water. There is an 8% difference between the GTX 780 and the Titan, nobody these days even gives the Titan a thought - except guys running 3x 4k screens. The only real target for AMD to look at in terms of pricing is the GTX 780, period.

if OC performance is what matters then lets wait and see voltage overclocked R9 290 OC vs GTX 780 OC vs R9 290X OC and then make judgements. :biggrin:
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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Not sure if serious. Do you even comprehend how much value Mantle and BF4 has added to these cards? IF AMD launches at $700 instead of a previously planned $600 it's been down to the events of the past week.

These cards will sell out at $700, I guarantee you that. Nvidia has nothing close to the potential of Mantle.

That depends on the consumer. If they feel mantle in BF4 is worth a premium or not. Have we seen real benchmarks of BF4 and what performance increases we can expect from Mantle? I havent been paying that much attention to it since the first couple days.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
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I don't even care about physx but if you want to compare value adds, it has to be quantifiable with the number of titles available. How many launch titles will mantle have on Oct. 15th? Zero? Again, I don't give two craps about physx but physx has a more quantifiable value add than Mantle, because, there are a lot of games on the market with it built in. Mantle has the potential to be great, but that is a long term proposition. It will not work until December, that is if AMD delivers on their promise.

To be clear: i'm excited about Mantle. But that is a LONG TERM proposition. It isn't going to be an overnight thing and it isn't going to change the gaming scene immediately. This is aside from the fact that nvidia has other value adds as well - AND their reputation and history. AMD has none of that. If AMD had a flawless track record, they COULD price it high. Sadly, they don't - they have had way too much negative press lately to do that.

Dudes. Again, I can't stress enough that I want the 290X to bring the pain to nvidia. I would love to see this card do well and gain AMD dGPU share as the 5870 did. Sadly, if AMD does what you guys are suggesting, the exact opposite will happen. AMD doesn't have the brand strength to command a price premium, whereas nvidia does - a 600$ or less 290X has the potential to do great things for the market. As I've mentioned before, a 700$ or higher 290X will simply have most consumers shrugging their shoulders and buying an overclocked GTX 780 instead - this will happen, I assure you.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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It matters a lot when the first game with Mantle will be BF4, and the hype that has been built around it. Even Fudo is hyping it - http://fudzilla.com/home/item/32730-battlefield-4-on-mantle-should-end-up-much-faster

BF4 is a card upgrader, AMD has it completely sewn up and the 290X is likely to outperform Titan in it even without Mantle. This matters to a lot of people.

And what is Mantle doesnt deliver? You are assuming people will happily plop down more money on a card they have no idea what the performance will be. Given AMDs track record of lieing about their performance. I think many informed buyers, especially ones willing to plop that kind of cash down on a single card will wait and see.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
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I don't even care about physx but if you want to compare value adds, it has to be quantifiable with the number of titles available. How many launch titles will mantle have on Oct. 15th? Zero? Again, I don't give two craps about physx but physx has a more quantifiable value add than Mantle, because, there are a lot of games on the market with it built in. Mantle has the potential to be great, but that is a long term proposition. It will not work until December, that is if AMD delivers on their promise.

To be clear: i'm excited about Mantle. But that is a LONG TERM proposition. It isn't going to be an overnight thing and it isn't going to change the gaming scene immediately. This is aside from the fact that nvidia has other value adds as well - AND their reputation and history. AMD has none of that. If AMD had a flawless track record, they COULD price it high. Sadly, they don't - they have had way too much negative press lately to do that.

I am actually a person who believes all these USD 600+ gpus are money grab exercises. If Nvidia could sell GTX 580 for USD 500 then why is it the GTX 780 cost USD 650. by the same reason if R9 290X matches Titan and sells with BF4 for USD 700 I don't think its any worse than GTX 780's value. :D
 

SiliconWars

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2012
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And what is Mantle doesnt deliver? You are assuming people will happily plop down more money on a card they have no idea what the performance will be. Given AMDs track record of lieing about their performance. I think many informed buyers, especially ones willing to plop that kind of cash down on a single card will wait and see.

The point is, even without Mantle AMD's cards will be better value. If you want to pay $500 for ~780 performance then get a R9 290, if you want to pay $700 for ~Titan performance get a 290X.

If the 780 made Titan irrelevant then just pretend the 290 makes the 290X irrelevant and buy a 290 for $500 instead. It's still better value than any of the Nvidia cards however you look at it, includes 3 free games and has the bonus potential of Mantle being awesome. For me that's as close to a slam dunk as you'll get in the GPU market.
 

DarkRipper

Golden Member
Jun 29, 2000
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I'm still waiting on the 400 dollar 780GTX pricepoint, either used or new, before I upgrade.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
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The point is, even without Mantle AMD's cards will be better value. If you want to pay $500 for ~780 performance then get a R9 290, if you want to pay $700 for ~Titan performance get a 290X.

If the 780 made Titan irrelevant then just pretend the 290 makes the 290X irrelevant and buy a 290 for $500 instead. It's still better value than any of the Nvidia cards however you look at it.

thats the problem. people will argue for hours about how 780 made Titan irrelevant and then the R9 290 is completely ignored. so wait and see the reviews of these cards and then lets see what happens in the marketplace.