time changes, our race to the bottom for quality

[hal2kilo]

This isn't just exclusive to American manufactured products. More and more I am becoming disgusted about TVs. I had a 52" DLP TV that has a bad ballast after 6 years. I mean, really, my boss has a 18 year old Sony Trinitron that hasn't needed one part. He paid $1,200 for it then. I buy a $2,500 TV 6 years ago and now I need to repair it for $200 on a *remanufactured* part because the company doesn't make parts for it now.

What about vacuum cleaners? Should I buy that Dyson, which is nothing more than a barrel of oil (plastic) or buy a Kirby that is made out of metal. Which one will last 20 years? Every other vacuum cleaner is such a piece of shit, none are good quality and the companies don't stand by them.

More and more I am realizing how disgusting we've become as human beings.

Just now, a commercial about how to make your house smell better with "scented oils". 100 years ago we were lucky to have a nice house, now we spend tons of money making them smell like Summer Lilacs with Vanilla.

What the fuck?

Maytag ruined its reputation squeezing the last dollar out of everything. A dryer I bought because they used to have a good reputation lasted 4 freaking years. And the poor fools that bought Neptunes got stuck with some real junk. Of course it helps that engineers these days don't look at what was tried at true and constantly are re-inventing the wheel that was thrown away years ago.

 

[Acanthus]

Pizza Hut pizza sucks. We have better options now. Finally got a Lou Malnatti's close enough, $15 for an amazing large thin crust pizza there, Pizza Hut's quality sucks they haven't done anything to make me want to buy their food - that is how business works.

Had pizza from a local restaurant just yesterday, well it was half-price night $6.25 for a medium, absolutely fantastic taste. Pizza Hut's "supreme"? I don't want their pizza even if it were down to $5. Maybe Pizza Hut is racing to the bottom, others are excelling. My town there are currently 7 pizza joints, pizza hut is #6 in quality they at least edge out Little Caesar's. I rarely see anyone dine in there anymore. So many better options elsewhere.

My main motivation to move back to Chicago is for Lous

 

[Darwin333]

Except the two variables aren't just "labor markets" vs. each other. If you study comparative vs. absolute advantages, you'll see that by and large both sides benefit on the net from trade. Labor is no different than goods in this scenario, it's just that people are involved and of course families and that is always emotional. But if you're dispassionate and just look at the facts, the cost of living has gone down for the middle class. Wages haven't increased fast enough, OK, that's one part of the equation.

When you include those non essential things like housing, health care and energy I am almost positive that the cost of living has not decreased.

 

[Engineer]

When you include those non essential things like housing, health care and energy I am almost positive that the cost of living has not decreased.

I saw something on inflation that blew my mind. Lets say steak rises by 50% in costs. The inflation calculation assumes that a certain percent of the people will switch to bologna, which was much cheaper than the steak was originally. Now since these people pay less than they originally did, they of course now have lower prices and their cost of living has decreased. That blows my mind to this day.

 

[jackace]

I saw something on inflation that blew my mind. Lets say steak rises by 50% in costs. The inflation calculation assumes that a certain percent of the people will switch to bologna, which was much cheaper than the steak was originally. Now since these people pay less than they originally did, they of course now have lower prices and their cost of living has decreased. That blows my mind to this day.

When most of us are referring to cost of living as increasing or decreasing we are referring to the Consumer price index. We are not referring to some random anecdotal number. CPI has actually went down since this recession, but not by a large amount and only for a year or so.

 

[Engineer]

When most of us are referring to cost of living as increasing or decreasing we are referring to the Consumer price index. We are not referring to some random anecdotal number. CPI has actually went down since this recession, but not by a large amount and only for a year or so.

IIRC, that's exactly what CNBC was talking about when they threw that out, but I could be wrong.

 

[LegendKiller]

IIRC, that's exactly what CNBC was talking about when they threw that out, but I could be wrong.

It's called Hedonics and that's not the right way to look at it.

 

[Acanthus]

IIRC, that's exactly what CNBC was talking about when they threw that out, but I could be wrong.

The BLS discloses when and if they change the "basket" of goods that are measured for CPI, they also periodically measure the price index of specific goods, and even go as far as to measure the ASP's for a lot of durable and non-durable goods.

 

[Engineer]

It's called Hedonics and that's not the right way to look at it.

OK, maybe I was wrong at what they were talking about then, but it blew my mind that you could just adjust the basket of goods because the consumer would now be buying cheaper stuff because the other stuff went up too much.

I would sincerely hope that inflation just looked at how much things went up or down and didn't adjust the basket just because things went up too much (or down too).

Wish I could find that clip to see what the hell they were talking about now.

 

[LegendKiller]

OK, maybe I was wrong at what they were talking about then, but it blew my mind that you could just adjust the basket of goods because the consumer would now be buying cheaper stuff because the other stuff went up too much.

I would sincerely hope that inflation just looked at how much things went up or down and didn't adjust the basket just because things went up too much (or down too).

Wish I could find that clip to see what the hell they were talking about now.

But it's not that easy. For example, cars. While car prices have gone up significantly, what about the quality of cars? Has the price increase been a direct effect of the quality, or one of inflation?

As far as substitution. Hedonics doesn't substitute goods when the price goes up due to inflation, per se. It substitutes the good if the price has gone up beyond inflation, or if economics dictates that people have swapped out that good for others when they cannot afford them for a period. Thus, if a basket of goods that any "normal" person uses includes Filet Mignon in one month, but since the person lost their job in the next month it includes cube steak, should there not be an adjustment for that?

Measuring inflation in a 14tr economy isn't easy and people misrepresenting hedonics doesn't make it easier.

 

[ShawnD1]

But it's not that easy. For example, cars. While car prices have gone up significantly, what about the quality of cars? Has the price increase been a direct effect of the quality, or one of inflation?

Both. My parents are pretty old, and they said that cars back in the 60s and 70s were expected to break down all the time. Like you buy a new car and you know you'll need to take it to the shop some time in the next year. The quality of modern cars goes way beyond that. When people buy a new car today, they expect absolutely nothing to break within the first 50,000 miles. Back in 1960, that would be the most unrealistic expectation ever, but it's a reality today. My Honda Civic was destroyed after 50,000 miles, but it was in perfect condition up until then. My current car is a Toyota Corolla and it too hasn't a single problem for the 20,000 miles so far. Quality is way up. Modern cars also include lots of amazing stuff that didn't exist such as automatic climate control and smart key entry/starter, both of which came standard on my car.

Lots of other things are getting better quality for less money. Speakers 50 years ago were total shit. They used vacuum tubes ffs! Modern speakers use transistors instead of vacuum tubes. The quality is much higher, they are more reliable, they cost less, and they are more energy efficient.

Furnaces, heating systems, cooling system are much better these days. 30 years ago, one might expect a furnace in their house to be 70% efficient. Now we expect them to be 90% efficient at least. The cost is still the same and they are about the same reliability, but modern ones are simply better.

 

[CallMeJoe]

...Speakers 50 years ago were total shit. They used vacuum tubes ffs! Modern speakers use transistors instead of vacuum tubes. The quality is much higher, they are more reliable, they cost less, and they are more energy efficient...

First, I think you mean amplifiers, not speakers.
Second, there are still vacuum tube amplifiers in production today.
Third, some of the most highly regarded high fidelity amplifiers ever made are vacuum tube powered and command a premium price on the used market.

I concede your point on energy efficiency, but the rest of your invective against vintage "speakers" is entirely ill conceived.

 

[Zebo]

I can eat for $40 a month on beans and rice. Mc Donalds is a rip even at $1 a whatever.

 

[dmcowen674]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal2kilo
I see you changed your handle. I see the tet a tet between you guys is still the same though.

I won't let Dave say such ridiculous things without challenging him to provide proof, which he can't.

Just like you lying about me voting for Bush twice constantly.

Where's your proof liar?

 

[jackace]

I can eat for $40 a month on beans and rice. Mc Donalds is a rip even at $1 a whatever.

I like beans and rice, but if I had to eat it everyday I'm pretty sure I would grow tired of it.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

More and more I am realizing how disgusting we've become as human beings.

Just now, a commercial about how to make your house smell better with "scented oils". 100 years ago we were lucky to have a nice house, now we spend tons of money making them smell like Summer Lilacs with Vanilla.

What the fuck?

Of all the examples of frivolous consumerism to get worked up about... :awe:

 

[ShawnD1]

First, I think you mean amplifiers, not speakers.
Second, there are still vacuum tube amplifiers in production today.
Third, some of the most highly regarded high fidelity amplifiers ever made are vacuum tube powered and command a premium price on the used market.

I concede your point on energy efficiency, but the rest of your invective against vintage "speakers" is entirely ill conceived.

The people who stick with vacuum tube amplifiers are the same weirdos who insist vinyl records sound better than digital audio. They say that because they like the scratchy sound of the vinyl rather than the sound of the actual music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound

Some musicians[who?] also prefer the distortion characteristics of tubes over transistors for electric guitar, bass, and other instrument amplifiers. In this case, generating deliberate (and sometimes considerable, in the case of electric guitars) audible distortion or overdrive is usually the goal. The term can also be used to describe the sound created by specially-designed transistor amplifiers or digital modeling devices that try to closely emulate the characteristics of the tube sound.
See also: Guitar effects
See also: Distortion (guitar)

The tube sound is often subjectively described as having a "warmth" and "richness", but the source of this is by no means agreed on. It may be due to the non-linear clipping that occurs with tube amps, or due to the higher levels of second-order harmonic distortion, common in single-ended designs resulting from the characteristics of the tube interacting with the inductance of the output transformer.

Simply put, people like tubes because the way they amplify a signal is inaccurate.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

First, I think you mean amplifiers, not speakers.
Second, there are still vacuum tube amplifiers in production today.
Third, some of the most highly regarded high fidelity amplifiers ever made are vacuum tube powered and command a premium price on the used market.

This is because audiophiles are the dumbest fuckers on the planet, it has nothing to do with the quality of vacuum tube amps. Everyone knows this.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal2kilo
I see you changed your handle. I see the tet a tet between you guys is still the same though.




Just like you lying about me voting for Bush twice constantly.

Where's your proof liar?

Are you officially denying that you voted for Bush? Even once?

 

[shortylickens]

I read about that a few weeks ago. I mean, WTF?!?!? Just when you think it can't get any worse, they are trying to even outsource fast food jobs!

What next? Outsourcing Wal Mart greeters? You'll walk in and there will be a large monitor with a webcam and a mic so you can talk to "Bob," the Wal Mart greeter live from India?

I find it humorous that the executive ranks never consider outsourcing their own jobs. Talk about cost savings -- you'd get a guy in India doing their jobs equally as well for 10% of their bloated pay.

If what I've seen around the country is any indication, Indians are rapidly moving up the ladder. There are plenty of highly skilled technical workers around now, and even a handful of executives.
Those overpaid American execs dont realize it but they set themselves up to be replaced by the very same people they used to replace their American working class man. Once the CEO and stock holders realize how much cheaper and more efficient those high priced jobs can be with an Indian, they will vote the rest of them out.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

If what I've seen around the country is any indication, Indians are rapidly moving up the ladder. There are plenty of highly skilled technical workers around now, and even a handful of executives.
Those overpaid American execs dont realize it but they set themselves up to be replaced by the very same people they used to replace their American working class man. Once the CEO and stock holders realize how much cheaper and more efficient those high priced jobs can be with an Indian, they will vote the rest of them out.

Quite honestly, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. CEOs can outsource a bunch of $40K or $50K jobs but magically pay themselves millions in bonuses without blinking an eye. Time to outsource them too.

 

[Modelworks]

Maytag ruined its reputation squeezing the last dollar out of everything. A dryer I bought because they used to have a good reputation lasted 4 freaking years. And the poor fools that bought Neptunes got stuck with some real junk. Of course it helps that engineers these days don't look at what was tried at true and constantly are re-inventing the wheel that was thrown away years ago.

My brother owns an appliance business and don't even mention maytag to him , his face turns red, he starts sweating and I think he is about to change into the incredible hulk

I worked with him a few years back when he was just starting up to help him out and at that time it was mainly all steel washers. Enameled steel tubs, cast iron transmissions with steel gears, steel frame. About the only thing not steel was the water pump and the hoses. The only problem he had with those was the steel tub would start to leak if it became chipped due to rust. It might take 10 years for that to happen though and could be fixed with a bit of silicone. Now almost every week he gets the same customer complaint :

" I washed my bedding in the washer and now it will not wash or spin "
He knows immediately what it is, they broke one of the plastic gears used in almost every model made now.
Before you could wash just about anything in the washer, now the manufacturer says, if you have to wash bedding then you need to take it to a laundromat.

 

[Binarycow]

My brother owns an appliance business and don't even mention maytag to him , his face turns red, he starts sweating and I think he is about to change into the incredible hulk

I worked with him a few years back when he was just starting up to help him out and at that time it was mainly all steel washers. Enameled steel tubs, cast iron transmissions with steel gears, steel frame. About the only thing not steel was the water pump and the hoses. The only problem he had with those was the steel tub would start to leak if it became chipped due to rust. It might take 10 years for that to happen though and could be fixed with a bit of silicone. Now almost every week he gets the same customer complaint :

" I washed my bedding in the washer and now it will not wash or spin "
He knows immediately what it is, they broke one of the plastic gears used in almost every model made now.
Before you could wash just about anything in the washer, now the manufacturer says, if you have to wash bedding then you need to take it to a laundromat.

same shit with the plastic gears they use in vehicle doors.

 

[CallMeJoe]

The people who stick with vacuum tube amplifiers are the same weirdos who insist vinyl records sound better than digital audio. They say that because they like the scratchy sound of the vinyl rather than the sound of the actual music.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound
Simply put, people like tubes because the way they amplify a signal is inaccurate.

A slight correction: People like tube amplifiers because the distortion they produce is less objectionable to them than the distortion of solid-state amplifiers.
Vacuum tube amplifiers in clipping distortion produce predominantly 2d and 4th order harmonics which blend with the natural harmonics of musical instruments and the human voice; solid-state amplifiers in clipping distortion produce more odd-order harmonics (3d, 5th, 7th, etc.) which give a harsh, gritty edge to music. Given enough power (or a highly efficient speaker), both designs can avoid this clipping distortion and can produce an extremely accurate musical signal.
The one definite advantage that solid-state amplifiers have over vacuum tube designs is energy efficiency, though some Class A designs try to eliminate that difference as well.
As for vinyl vs. digital sources, if given a sufficiently high sampling rate and accurate D to A and A to D conversion, digital sources can reduce the distortions that some listeners find objectionable. Given sufficient cleaning, vinyl sources can eliminate the noise artifacts that you decry.

 

[CallMeJoe]

This is because audiophiles are the dumbest fuckers on the planet, it has nothing to do with the quality of vacuum tube amps. Everyone knows this.

iPod and earbuds, right?